Boiler pipework advice needed

[skewett]

Hi guys

This is my first post and I would like some advice / opinions on recent work carried out by a 'National Company' when they carried out a non too cheap Boiler replacement installation.

First of all it would be useful to say that my mains water pressure is excellent.

I have included a couple of photos to further explain the concerns.

Can you comment on the following:

1. Take a look at the picture showing the connection to my mains water supply. It's in the bottom left hand corner of pic 1. It just looks to me like a lazy job, 4 elbows in the space of 4-6 inches (a couple are hidden behind the original pipes) and a total of 7 before it hits the boiler connection. This can't be right and I think it contributes to the drastic drop in pressure when I'm using more than one tap/flush/shower at the same time. For example, my bathroom has a 22mm supply with just short 15mm lengths to taps and shower, yet when I fully turn on the bathroom hot tap the shower virtually stops working. Wouldn't it have been better, if not quicker, to have bent the pipe connections in a single run straight up to the boiler.

2. I have been told that Combi boilers take a lot of pipework but the mess you can see in the pictures has left me nonplussed as to how to box the pipes in and make the work look presentable. It just doesn't look like a decent job has been made of this maze of pipes?

I have taken this up with the Company along with other problems (TRVs not connected properly (just spinning around), marked carpets and leaking rads but they don't seem to be over worried now they have my money! At present they promise to sort things out but with very little follow up action.

Any advice / opinions would be welcome.

Cheers Jim

 

[newbie1]

to start with i would have suggested the spacer kit to enable the flow and return pipes to come behind the boiler
or i would have taken the pipes straight down in a line and done the crossover below where it could have been either boxed or a unit fitted to hide it all
and last of all i assume the gas pipe is coming in from outside i cant tell if it has been sleeved and sealed it doesnt seem it has which classes it as not to current standards and naughty on a new install

all is not lost it can be sorted
take the flow and return 2 22mm pipes /cold inlet 15mm/ hot out 15mm/ and clip in a neat line downwards then make the connections below work surface height so can all be hidden
which model is the vaillant as the newer ecomax 824 etc have the filling loop nicely integrated into the flow valve connection
and that filling loop could also come below work surface lvel then cut out back of a unit and job done
to put all that right nicely wld only be about 100.00

how much was install

 

[skewett]

The boiler is a Vaillant EcoTec Pro 28. Install charge was £3100

The supply does come in through the wall and I'm not sure if it is sleeved or sealed but I'd be interested now to find out whether it is or not.

The engineers that did the fitting were pleasant and worked hard but I just get the impression they did the easiest job they could without regard to any kind of finishing.

Not really what I expected from a 'big company'.

I've just had words with the area manager who said that using a hot tap and a shower at the same time will result in considerable pressure drop with a combi boiler. Strange how this wasn't mentioned during the initial sales patter.

 

[newbie1]

did you orig have a cylinder and conventional boiler as tbh for a familly i would have suggested a regular or system boiler
i am constantly surprised the amount of people using the bigger so called pro companies
companies push combis because they are easy to install but you have to realise the 15mm hot outlet has to feed all the hot taps and pressure will drop considerably if you open 2 at the same time
with a cylinder its a 22mm outlet and only teeing of in 15mm for sink taps etc as bath taps stay in 22mm

as regard the gas look where pipe comes through wall it should have an outer sleeve of at least 28mm and be sealed round the sleeve and the wall surface and sealed on the inside around the pipe in a non setting compound so any leak will not enter the room also for protection from the lime in the wall attatcking the copper

 

[stevetheplumber]

ive seen much worse than this but i agree it is messy
what amazes me is why people go to large companies ,the two fitter who did the job were probably on 125 a day the matierials less than a grand and the rest is advertising and profit
job like this assuming there was a combi there before 2g tops

 

[so-solar]

what was your mains pressure like before the lad started?

The engineer must have had a spec sheet to work from as BIG companies always survey the jobs first?
Did you speak to the engineer as he was doing the job?

It is very difficult to argue once they have gone but i can see your gripe!

 

[jonathanb]

ive seen much worse than this but i agree it is messy
what amazes me is why people go to large companies ,the two fitter who did the job were probably on 125 a day the matierials less than a grand and the rest is advertising and profit
job like this assuming there was a combi there before 2g tops

Agreed - seen plenty worse, but no work of art and anyone charging more than a couple of grand is taking the Michael. Big firm though you say? Thats why its sometimes better to get a decent one man band or small local firm in with a good reputation and on reccommendation.😉

 

[jpm]

s h i t i s h gas job? 🙄

An Isoar would have topped it off eh DM?😉Obviously can't use a bender.

 

[Puddle]

Can not see why they did not just come straight across and connect up to hot and cold but will not effect flow,they should have explained about flow rates and before they fitted it
What is wrong though is the power supply,looks like they have brought it down,maybe from the old airing cupboard ,straight to boiler ,there should have been an isolation point fitted within reach of the boiler
Also the bottom layer of tiles that the boiler is sitting on should have been removed to allow boiler to sit flat on wall,with tiles there it will be at a slight angle

 

[radswilldo]

Hot and cold piper work is bad, they've added resistance to the flow rate. As mentioned, the pipe work could of been done alot better, I would of removed the two compression T's. When I do boiler conversions, I also alterate all 22mm hot pipe work down to 15mm as far as possible. As far as im concerned, if the customer has the correct working pressure and flow rate on the main then they must recieve the boiler hot flow rate as stated. Combi's cannot cope with multiple draw off's, the choices of heating and hot water provision should of been discussed in depth from the get go. In the future, do a little research, get at least 3 quotes and ask questions/listen carefully to each engineer/company.

 

[skewett]

Thanks lads

Lots of good comments there.

Puddle mentioned the top row of tiles!

The engineers actually pinned a big square piece of fibre board from the top row of tiles to the top of the boiler. That means the boiler is lying flat, but I did think when I realised what they had done whether or not that could have been a hazzard of some kind?

 

[jpm]

No ***bustable materials allowed,so unless I misunderstand you this is ID

 

[skewett]

To clear this up - The engineers pinned a square piece of fibre board onto the wall and mounted the boiler to this. Fibre Board is bound to be combustable.

What do you mean when you say this is ID

 

[jpm]

To clear this up - The engineers pinned a square piece of fibre board onto the wall and mounted the boiler to this. Fibre Board is bound to be combustable.

What do you mean when you say this is ID

AR At Risk
ID Immediately Dangerous
NCS Not to Current Standards

 

[david williams]

dont use these big firms ,find a local plumber/gas fitter,ask questions,just because they have a big advertising presence does not make them the best it just means they have to charge more to cover advertising.when you have work like this done talk to people you know to see if they know a good plumber.or contact charterd institute of plumbing and heating engineers

 

[skewett]

just paid a visit to my sons house where the boiler has been fitted.

Interestingly I was able to lok more closely at the two concerns mentioned above.

1. The gas pipe has been fed in from outside and I can see some sort of sleeve just poking out on the inside of the house but it doesn't look as though there is much, if anything, protecting the copperon the outside. I have taken a picture and post it when I get home.

2. The concern about the boiler being placed onto some fibre-board might not be ID as it lookslike they may have sandwiched a piece of some kind of asbestos type material between the bolier and the fibre-board. Am I correct to suppose this would make things OK ?

I am still trying to get some satisfaction from the installers but they are refusing to return calls or it seems pay anothet visit to sort out my concerns. It is now over 3 weeks since I asked them to come and stop the TRVs spinning round. I know this is probably just a simple case of tightening the collars, but after their unhelpful attitude and the fact that I didn't delay in paying them in full, I think I should hold out until they meet their obligations.

I'm really grateful for all the helpful advice given so far. I intend to give this company just a little longer before I name them on the Forum. I'm sure helpful advisors would like to know who they are and the shoddy service they have offered should be brought to the attention of other potential customers.

Would I be breaking any Forumrules by naming them?

Cheers again

Jim

 

[migoplumber]

asbestos type material? yum yum.

shaun

 

[Plucky]

The aspestos looking stuff is probably fire board.

Same stuff the oil guys use to line fences behind oil tank installations. Its fire proof and wouldnt be classed as ID.

Would have to get that double checked though

 

[smoggs03]

i work for a national company and that is not acceptable! the difference between us and'them' (sorry) is you get guaranteed quality and immediate follow up when dissatisfied. i just hope it's not the company i work for!!
we regularly use superlux board which is fire resistant good practice i think because wallpaper is flammable. we use gas sleeves specially designed to fit the pipe tightly but they should be obvious from both sides to aid annual inspection. you are definatley missing a stand off kit your pipework is the level of a kid(sorry kids) and i think theyv'e cut the prv(blow off pipe) which means the condensate trap is not removable any more. the quickest way to get things done if your manager is doing nothing is to contact the office who raise a complaint and then and only then do the higher management become aware.. Thats if it is us.
hope that helps 🙂

 

[skewett]

Thanks Smoggs

I have now written to the Company direct following a conversation with the area manager on 22 July in which I really got nowhere. He just keeps blaming someone else who he reckons he has asked to call me and discuss what he thought when he inspected the work following my original complaint (25th June).

He even had the cheek to claim that this guy had been trying to get hold of me and had even spoken to my son. That's just rubbish, my son has had no contact with this guy and contrary to the Area Managers claim has not received any messages on his phone either.

The Managers reaction to the TRVs just spinning round was "anyone could be responsible for that", pretty much trying to pass the blame on to soemone at the house, rather than accepting my comments that it seemed like pretty shoddy workmanship.

Anyway I'll keep the forum updated, maybe even copying the company's reply and name to the thread, once I return from holiday.

Cheers again for all the advice and comments.