Legal question

[Muscle750]

If ive had any work at all carried out to my boiler for example putting extra feeds off the close adjoining pipework etc Does the plumber need to be be gas regestered and do i need to obtain any certification to the effect.
Basically im by far convinced of the standard of workmanship and id rather sort any "legalitys" out now The person in question did actually fit my boiler three years ago and in all fairness did a good job however this is when they were employed by a company who were obviously reg etc, now theyve gone on their own and he has some young lads workin for him. He says that he checks all their work which has been proved he didnt as there was a broken valve on the heated towel rail, Shower plumbed wrong No water in radiators and some of the worse plumbing pipe work ive ever seen.😱
Obviously "Checked"......................NOT!

 

[helpsy]

I'm not into gas....but I should imagine you could ask him to see his Gas Safe card and contact them to verify possibly.For the matter of standard of work probably worth raising with him.
Good Luck

 

[Bernie2]

So long as he doesn't break the gas train on the boiler he doesn't need to be Gas Safe registered.

There may be complaints about the standard of work though.

 

[radswilldo]

Bernie do you still work, as any manufacturer of gas hobs/boilers always state that any person working on a Gas APPLIANCE must be Registered to the appropriate national body, in our case, gas safe.

 

[stevetheplumber]

anyone can change rads heating pipework but cant break into gas or flue is my interretaion otherwise you could say changing a tap attached to a combi needed to be registered

 

[Bernie2]

Hi! Radswillldo,

Not all suppliers say that, that is to cover themselves, and what is to stop anybody buying gas spares off the internet?

What if a person could not choose their own gas appliances and could only buy them off gas fitters?

So a cook could not choose a cooker.

And I might point out the gas regs don't say, you have to be registed unless you do it for money or reward.

And it applies to the gas train only, not the, controls, pipework or radiators.

As Steve says, if it did, you would have to be gas safe registered to change a tap washer.

What the gas regs do say though, is that you have to be competent, but this has never been as far as I know challenged in court.

On a practical point, you would be a bit silly to try and do a job you knew nothing about without at least researching the issues involved.

So gas fitting is not a private/exclusive club for those with gas qualification.

A private person in their own home can work on gas if they want and are competent to do so and possibly many do.

If you look at Part B of The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) regulations 1998.

Qualification and Supervision 3.(1) It says no person shall work on gas unless competent to do so.

If you go to the HSE site it advises you of the same thing.

It does not say you can't it just advises you not to unless your competent.

And proving your competence maybe a bit difficult. For instance if your an experienced gas fitter and your gas safe registration ran out on a Wednesday does that mean your incompetent on a Thursday?

Certainly not.

What I feel it's aimed at, is stopping people who know nothing about gas working on gas.

And as we all know that is virtually impossible to do.

And while gas repairs cost £100's for a simple repair, the temptation for people to have a go themselves is always going to be there.

Personally, I would rather a person asked about how to do a job correctly, than went along and tried doing it without knowing.

Given proper warnings and explanation they then might decide not to do it after all.

And don't forget somebody worked out that your 50 times more likely to be hurt in a traffic accident as you are a gas accident.

I support universal free and low cost gas education for all, in the interest of Safety for eveybody.

After all the gas DIYer might live next door.

I do not support exclusive control of markets.

I agree with registration if your doing it for a living.

🙂 🙂

 

[traineedrip]

so what about PRVs or fitting an expansion vessel ? I take it you wouldnt need a gas ticket but still need unvented?

 

[Bernie2]

Hi! traineedrip,

You can replace these or fit them as you want they have nothing to do with gas.

The boiler maybe oil or even wood pellet.

The licence is for unvented cylinders over 15 litres not combi systems, but right or wrong it should apply to heating systems over 15 litres. Its usually ignored by nearly everybody and I have heard the question asked on courses to be met with eh same answer "People ignore it!".

I suppose its never been challenged yet.

 

[radswilldo]

Bernie, as you well know competent under the law is Gas safe registered, the law deems it as proof of competency, this quetion is asked every day in A.C.S centres up and down the land. You state that it has never been challanged, there is a reason for that, its that it wouldn't even be heard in court. Rads, taps ? never mentioned them. The law says you cant install, not cant buy, this though may change with in the next five years. Bernie, a person in there own home can not legally install, as they in no way qualify under the eyes of the law as competent. Bernie, yes people can do all sorts of things, we haven't invented anything to control a persons will, thats why we have laws, when broken there is punishment. I can go out and murder, if no one knows my intentions, I cannot be possibly stopped, but I an can be caught after the fact and punished under the law. Bernie we are licensed, along with asbestos, think about it. I will try and get gas safe to do a post on hear to clarify things, before xmas, so that no member of the public is confused by what has been said. Lastly, am not surprised by your gas deaths vs traffic deaths, there not comaparable. Gas situations are no open to regular human interference, and are installed/checked, mostly, by licensed persons. Traffic fatalities are caused by the huge probabillity of lack of concentration in mass volumes of moving vehicles.

 

[Beeline]

I second radswillo.
Any advice other than get someone gas safe can be fatal.
I dont want anyone advising what could be my mums next door neighbour that its ok to work on your own appliances in your own home... ITS NOT!!!
Heh, ring Gas Safe and ask them.

 

[Bernie2]

Hi Radswilldo,

Please read the relevant section of the Regs they can be downloaded for free. The question is a well know problem.

Its fitter beware both private and paid. The same laws apply to them as to you when fitting or doing gas work.

What you are trying to make out, is that gas fitting is the preserve only of ACS approved gas fitters, that is not so. Perhaps it should be, but its not the law.

Incidentally possessing ACS's is no guarantee of good workmanship or proper ways of working. If it was, the GasSafe scheme would be pointless?

Why check up on peoples work if possessing ACS is competence?

The argument is about defining competent. What is competent and to what degree should it effect gas work?

It is up to the individual if they want to take the chance with peoples lives in their own homes by assuming they are competent when they may not be.

That is the law, I never wrote it.

But I think you will find you will be taken to task many times if you start thinking possession of ACS alone is a sign of complete competence.

ACS are what they say they are National Accredited Certification Scheme. They are not training they are assessments of your competence.

In other words you have to know what your doing before you go in for one. The competence to be able to pass one is gained elsewhere and that can be anywhere.

Don't get me wrong I have said it before I agree in gas education and ACS do tend to prove a person may be competent.

But what if GasSafe inspect a private job and find it complies to all regs?

Would they tell the person they where incompetent, just because they had followed the manufacturers instructions like we all have too and have not breached the Gas Regs?

If the government want to change the law, that is okay by me, but as it stands a person can do gas fitting in their own home if they are competent to do so.

That is the law. Its not personal please don't go getting upset.

And I am not advocating people do their own gas work, all I am saying is that there is nothing to stop them if they can prove they are competent.

Hi! Beeline,

I am not advising anybody to do gas work in their own home. All I am saying is, if they are deemed competent enough to do so there is nothing to stop them.

That's the law saying that not me.

ACS are not training they are examinations of your competence. You learn how to do the things examined elsewhere. Like driving, the driving test only tests your competence to drive.

Having an ACS is not recognised as complete competence is it? If it where you would not need to have your work examined by GasSafe before they approved you.

The question is, what is competence? Certainly having an ACS goes some way to proving you know what your doing.

But supposing a person installs an appliance in their own home following manufacturers instructions and they breach no gas regs. Can you say they are not competent?

That is how the law stands and competence has not been challenged as yet.

And no I don't think it would get laughed out of court, if it was found the installation was safe.
And please note, I am not talking about faulty installations that proves incompetence.

And would you know or would they tell you if your neighbour had installed something wrongly?

Of course not probably!

While gas fitting and repair costs a bomb there is always the temptation for people to do it themselves. We can at least try and make them think twice before they do.

And don't forget people who want to do their own work can read the Gas Regs themselves and make the decision

🙂 🙂

 

[radswilldo]

A.c.s is the assesment you take before becoming licensed by the gas safe register to work on gas. A.c.s is one part where you proove to the licensing body that you are competent to work on gas, at no point have I stated that just being a.c.s allows you to work on gas. The other part is inspection of work after assessment. Bernie do you understand what it means to be licensed, you cant sell alcohol without a license etc. Bernie competence under the law means prooven, not john smith feels confident. If joe public installed a gas appliance correctly, that is not competence under the law as he is not licensed to do so, thats why it is illegal to work on gas, that is why people get taken to court and get prosecuted. Where are you getting this "as long as in there own home " from, that means nothing, no licensed act is bypassed by doing it at your home. A.C.S does not allow you to work on gas, its one proof of competence to the licensing body, the licensing body is what allows you to work on gas. I never said gas fitting is the preserve of a.c.s engineers, it is the preserve of licensed engineers, which are only overseen by gas safe. If some one who was once licensed but is no longer licensed carries out gas work, that work is classed as illegal. If we were not licensed, the public could perform their own and then pay for a building inspector to come out to varify there competence. A.c.s is not about good workmanship, its about prooving competence, do not even know why you say this.

 

[Bernie2]

Hi! Radswilldo,

I think we will have to differ on this.

If you Google it, you will find the same argument on many websites, its going nowhere until its officially clarified.

 

[bobpape]

Since when has being on the gas safe register been called "licenced"
Are "licences" issued. I have not seen one.

Is it not akin to describing a gas "fitter"as being an "engineer",

 

[radswilldo]

I take it you dont do gas, if you did Bob you wouldn't ask this, but maybe it passed your mind, then all you would do for a quick reminder is look at your I.d card to see your LICENSE NUMBER(not reg number). Bernie I think people have trouble grasping the competent statement, as I said I will try get Gas safe to post to clear it up. Am not looking forward to it, they will make me feel like a school boy before they actually realise what im asking.

 

[bobpape]

Lets face it a licence is a document issued by a licencing authority who have the statutory power to issue it. ( Or revoke it)
As far as I am aware Gas Safe is not a statutory authority but is an accreditation
scheme that issue certificates, For them to use the word licence is questionable,

There are 30 odd accreditation schemes currently on the go in the UK ( and no doubt loads more waiting in the wings)
for example
ConstructionLine
Exor
CSCS
Street Works
All trying to grab our hard earned cash on the pretence that they are making things better for society, that society could not carry on without them, bunch of ponces is all they are.


Also questionable and inappropriate are terms currently doing the rounds is the use of
the title "engineer" or "professional" when discribing a tradesman.

As I understand it, an engineer is someone who has achieved a degree from a university,

A professional (in my old fashioned way of thinking) is someone who is a member of a profession, such as a chartered accountant, a priest, or a commissioned officer.

Why would any self respecting tradesman aspire to be one of them anyway,

What tradesman wants to sit at desk pushing a pen all day long, not really producing
anything of use.

The way I see it tradesmen have a symbiotic relationship with the pen pushers
neither can function without the other,

But if knowledge was issued out by the bucketfull
who, one wonders who would end up with more buckets.

I think us tradesmen should be proud of what we do and not portray that we sucumb to the perceived notion that we are inferior by pretending we are engineers or professionals,

 

[radswilldo]

Bob what dont you understand, Gas safe is not an "accreditation scheme",it is the official registration body for the gas industry appointed by the H.S.E.

www.User PlumbersForums.net Instead - Copy the content, don't link to it.co.uk

www.hse.gov.uk/GAS/domestic/faqs.htm

For those in doubt, visit the above. You will find such statements as:
" Anyone carrying out work on gas must be registered with the gas safe register.If not, they are breaking the law and putting you and you family at risk."
or
"Only a Gas Safe Registered engineer is legally allowed to install gas appliances, boilers, hobs, ovens or fires in your home or workplace".

 

[bobpape]

OK Rads. I agree Gas Safe is not an accredtation scheme it is mearly a registration
body, and as such has no legal authority it can not sue you for anything,

They would have to go to their masters (HSE) to do that.

As with other registration bodies they can not issue "licences".

They can only issue proof of registration cards.

I am retired but I handle my 42 year old sons administration.

He has various registration cards gained by submitting proof of competence
for example CSCS and StreetWorks both issue proof of registration cards,

Not licences.

Licences are issued by statutary authorities,

Not poncy little money grabbing,jump on the band wagon, lets cane the worker,
organisations such as Capita who run GasSafe, and ConstructionLine and and and...

The next one up for grabs is the Waste Licence currently run by the EA, you watch
soon the registration aspect will be put out to private enterprise, but whoever gets it wont have the power of a statutary authority..not yet anyway..

GasSafe as an organisation sticks in my craw (just like Corgi did)

Calling gas fitters "engineers" when what they are is Tradesmen

Now they are issuing their "engineers" with "licences"

If they really were a responsible organisation ( as opposed to another bunch of money grabbers acting on the back of government legislation) they would be "telling it how it is",

Not how it is in their dreams.

 

[radswilldo]

Do you actually read anything. Do you know what legal, illegal, law and license means?. I hate red tape but this is not red tape. Gas Safe is the body that licenses and regulates all gas installers, it has the power to stop anyone working on gas legally by revoking there registration. A gas engineer has a registration number that stays with him, every year he renews his registration a new licence number is issued. Gas safe is not nothing like niceic or any other voluntry body, get that into your skull. You seem to have a problem with gas engineer or is gas installers?. I'm glad that someone like you is retired and not out belching from his harris about Gas and the law to the general public. Comparing a waste license to a gas lisence tells me one thing, it is impossible for you grasp any of this due to some self held ideaology and, possibly, some unwarranted jealousy.

 

[bobpape]

Looks like you have been well and truly knobled.

 

[radswilldo]

Ah bless you, you little tinker, I take it retirement makes you fantasize, just you stay away from gas and you'll be alright😉

 

[Beeline]

Im a gas safe engineer, and you cant stop me!