New development

[iiplumbing]

Hi Chaps

Hope your all doing OK, I see Ray's having a torrid time with car wars!! or is that tyre wars?

Just all letting you know about the new developments with my new product hotun.

I was contacted by a major boiler manufacturer, who was very interested in my product, and from what you guys have been buying off of me and me finding out what applications you are using it for, now is the time to tell you about what has been happening.

As you know hotun is suitable for flow rates up to 12 litres a minute. The boiler manufacturer PRV discharge rate was up at 18 litres a minute. We were given a boiler by said manufacturer to develop a higher discharge product, which we did, we tested it and then had validation trials at said manufacturer, all went smoothly, they have told me that they will be recommending my product for use with their boiler but that will take a bit of time to organise.

So now we have a tundish that can be fitted to a boiler which allows the safe full flow of discharge from the PRV (safe even at 100degC) and that, provided the pipework is configured correctly, you can then also pipe in (below the tundish outlet) the condensate.

The first fully compliant single pipe PRV/condensate solution using just one product (and the pipe and fittings of course)

No more cutting holes through walls if you have a local waste pipe to discharge into, and especially useful if you are three stories (or more) up in flats or apartments, and of course therefore no more unsightly brown stains if the PRV starts to pass!

Keep this one under your hats guys, I don't want the competition cottoning on that we have the solution

Production is due to start in three months time, but in the meantime if you want any more information please feel free to give me a call to have a chat on 077 666 555 06.

@Ray Stafford - Ray your man still hasn't got back to me and I would offer you the first refusal to sell these through your distributorship or I can continue to sell them direct, I respect that you sponsor these forums so am glad to work with you so as not to upset the apple cart!

Many thanks peeps and look forward to hearing your comments

Best regards

Russell

 

[Rckape]

Hey Russell, your product sounds good to me, is the 18lpm flow rate common across most boiler manufacturers?

It makes a lot of sense to combine the prv and condense when recommended by mi's.

Are you able to give an idea of price and the boiler manufacturer?

 

[MOSSEP]

it looks like a great product, I can see a use for it.

I don't want to pick holes and could have it wrong but isn't it non compliant to run the discharge from an unvented cylinder into solvent weld pipework and into a shared waste pipe? I thought you could only discharge into soil stack if done internally and any plastic pipe has to be push fit type due to the temperature ratings.

Your website suggests that this is fine, but Im under the impression that its not. I could be wrong though and if so I apologise!

 

[iiplumbing]

Hey Russell, your product sounds good to me, is the 18lpm flow rate common across most boiler manufacturers?

It makes a lot of sense to combine the prv and condense when recommended by mi's.

Are you able to give an idea of price and the boiler manufacturer?

Hi Rckape, thanks for your response

Price will be about £22.94 plus vat plus P&P (that's about £1.95) if you get it from us.

I am not sure if the 18lpm is a common flow rate but it's the largest I have seen so far! If the boiler discharge rate is less than 12lpm then the standard hotun will work as the prv discharge (direct in 22mm copper to drain), however if you combine this to condensate you will need to use 22mm Speed fir on the discharge so that the condensate vapours will not effect the pipe, don't use copper in this application as it will corrode!

Thanks for your question.

Regards

Russ

I can't actually divulge the manufacturers name as of yet because we do not have their ok as yet. Our validation tests were carried out just last week, so I would be hopeful that we will hear back with confirmation in a couple of weeks time.

 

[iiplumbing]

it looks like a great product, I can see a use for it.

I don't want to pick holes and could have it wrong but isn't it non compliant to run the discharge from an unvented cylinder into solvent weld pipework and into a shared waste pipe? I thought you could only discharge into soil stack if done internally and any plastic pipe has to be push fit type due to the temperature ratings.

Your website suggests that this is fine, but Im under the impression that its not. I could be wrong though and if so I apologise!

Hi Mossep

Thanks for your question.

The regulations state that you can only do this is you can demonstrate that the waste pipe is capable of withstanding the temperatures expected from the discharge.

Now call me a bit simple, but unvented cylinders are designed to make sure temps do not get above 95degC.

First - have you ever poured the boiled water from the Sunday roast veg down the drains? What happened to the pipework? Did it fall apart? (push fit or solvent weld)

Second - Hepvo (with a tundish upstream) have been doing this without any ill effects (to my knowledge) for years!!

Third - I don't think we would promote the use of solvent weld, as you say, that softens quicker than push fit (push fit from many manufacturers is capable of reasonable temperatures for continuous flow)

Fourth - If the cylinder is releasing water at 95degC, you have got some serious problems with your cylinder.

Fifth - I am not sure with your wording of your last question what you mean "Your website suggests that this is fine, but Im under the impression that its not. I could be wrong though and if so I apologise"

Can you please re-phrase so I can understand?

Many thanks

Russell

 

[MOSSEP]

On your page called 'whats compliant', one of the pictures shows the discharge pipe running into some solvent weld pipework, for someone not sure about about regs they might look at it and believe that it ok to do it.

The link below has some good information on whats ok to do.

http://www.nhbc.co.uk/NHBCPublications/LiteratureLibrary/Technical/StandardsExtra/filedownload,34921,en.pdf

I like the look of your product if running directly into a soil stack though.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

On your page called 'whats compliant', one of the pictures shows the discharge pipe running into some solvent weld pipework, for someone not sure about about regs they might look at it and believe that it ok to do it.

The link below has some good information on whats ok to do.

http://www.nhbc.co.uk/NHBCPublications/LiteratureLibrary/Technical/StandardsExtra/filedownload,34921,en.pdf

I like the look of your product if running directly into a soil stack though.

thats an undersink water heater

 

[MOSSEP]

Does that make a difference when running discharge pipework then?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Does that make a difference when running discharge pipework then?

not for a 5-10 l under-sink water heater i think not sure tbh

 

[iiplumbing]

Does that make a difference when running discharge pipework then?

ShaunCorbs is correct and his understanding of the subtleties of compliance impressive!

First, the rules are the same you have to comply with water and building regs in either under 15 litre installations or over 15 litre.

However the biggest difference is that the under 15l unit only has a 3bar PRV, the T&Prv found on larger unvented cylinders is set at 6 or 7 bar.

So the likelihood of an under counter cylinder ever experiencing temps of over 80degC will be rare indeed. This is because if the expansion vessel looses its ability to absorb expansion and the heater coil goes open circuit, i.e. goes nuts and continues heating the water, the pressure in the cylinder will climb really quickly and at about 80degC the pressure will exceed 3bar and the valve will discharge allowing a fresh slug of cold water to enter the cylinder, which is then heated up the pressure builds to 3 bar and the cycle happens again.

Now in the larger unvented units with a PRV set at 6/7 bar the temp will climb to 90/95degC before the pressure is reached and the valve discharges.

So under-counter cylinders behave in a slightly different fashion (in real terms) than larger units and the temps of water expected from them are different as well.

I hope that is helpful

Russell

 

[Ray Stafford]

@Ray Stafford - Ray your man still hasn't got back to me and I would offer you the first refusal to sell these through your distributorship or I can continue to sell them direct, I respect that you sponsor these forums so am glad to work with you so as not to upset the apple cart!

Hi Russel

Please don't take it personally if our purchasing team haven't come back to you - they get hundreds of potential products cross their desks every year. I can only suggest that you persist. I make a point of not intervening in purchasing decisions unless I am prepared to be personally responsible for the product category performance, or the category manager specifically asks me for assistance.

Best of luck though.

Ray

 

[Rckape]

Cheers Russell, thanks for the info. I though you might not be able to let on about the manufacturer yet but it was worth asking.

That's a reasonable price. I'll be picking up one of each to keep on the van when the bigger ones ready.

Forgive my ignorance, but as I don't use speedfit, would polyplumb be suitable also? Or is the high temperatures specific to the manufacturer?

I've not been able to have a flick through a set of MI's yet, do they publish discharge flows. If it's not readily available is this something you might be able to compile over time and publish on your website perhaps?

Cheers

 

[AWheating]

The product looks good mate.

Does g3 regs not state a discharge to waste should be the sole connection to said waste? Ie you can't combine it with anything else.

 

[iiplumbing]

Cheers Russell, thanks for the info. I though you might not be able to let on about the manufacturer yet but it was worth asking.

That's a reasonable price. I'll be picking up one of each to keep on the van when the bigger ones ready.

Forgive my ignorance, but as I don't use speedfit, would polyplumb be suitable also? Or is the high temperatures specific to the manufacturer?

I've not been able to have a flick through a set of MI's yet, do they publish discharge flows. If it's not readily available is this something you might be able to compile over time and publish on your website perhaps?

Cheers

Hi Rckape

We suggest speedfit pipe because they are definite about stating its temperature rating (100degC) so is suitable for use as a discharge from a PRV. Other manufacturers have not stated their ratings so we cannot be sure and we would not suggest something (as a responsible company) if we could not back it up. So the best thing is to ask the manufacturer of the pipe (get the answer in writing) if it is suitable for 100degC, if it is then you can use it!

Re the boiler manufacturers flow rate declarations, we cannot state what their output rate is unless we can quote it from their own literature. Because of pressure drop and restrictions to valves and fittings, I would have thought that any output from the boiler (discharge from the PRV) is dependant on what type of valve is fitted. Other factors contribute to this flow rate as well.

One thing is sure though, even our first designed hotun is capable of being connected to the boiler and have the condensate run in below it, provided it can be demonstrated that any discharge is visible and can be discharged to a safe point of drain.

The point is at what point in the boilers life might the PRV run at full flow? To my mind it will be for two reasons
1/ A total and catastrophic failure of the valve itself
2/ If an installer comes along and presses the relief valve "manual override" and drains the system down or tests the PRV for correct operation.

The first I have never head of and the second is under the control of the said engineer.

At any other conditions such as a PRV blow off due to overpressure or someone leaving the cold fill valve open, hotun will cope with the flow easily.

I hope this explains

Regards

Russell ( RA Tech UK Ltd | RA Tech UK Ltd website )

 

[iiplumbing]

The product looks good mate.

Does g3 regs not state a discharge to waste should be the sole connection to said waste? Ie you can't combine it with anything else.

Hello Sir

Thank you for your kind words and I hope you are well?

Regarding G3 regs and connections etc, I believe that you are referring to this particular section?

"3.60 The discharge pipe should not be connected to a soil discharge stack unless it can be demonstrated that the soil discharge stack is capable of safely withstanding temperatures of the water discharged, in which case, it should:

a. contain a mechanical seal, not incorporating a water trap, which allows water into the branch pipe without allowing foul air from the drain to be ventilated through the tundish;

b. be a separate branch pipe with no sanitary appliances connected to it;

c. if plastic pipes are used as branch pipes carrying discharge from a safety device, they should be either polybutalene (PB) or cross-linked polyethylene (PE-X) complying with national standards such as Class S of BS 7291-2:2006 or Class S of BS 7291-3:2006 respectively; and

d. be continuously marked with a warning that no sanitary appliances should be connected to the pipe."

As such, I read that the BRANCH pipe is not allowed to have a sanitary connection to it before the soil pipe. Therefore would condensate be considered to be a "sanitary" connection? But the regs above specifically state a "sanitary APPLIANCE" and I would have thought that a condensate connected to a boiler would NOT be considered to be a "sanitary appliance".

An interesting question none the less, maybe we should open this question up to others opinions?

Best regards

Russell

 

[MOSSEP]

Item 'B' means that the d2 discharge pipe should not be combined with a waste pipe that other sanitary items are connected too, so should therefore run directly to the soil stack. I believe this is so that there is no risk of it being blocked by something.

Item 'C' means that no solvent weld pipe should be used as the D2 pipe. John Guest who make Speedfit state that you should not use their pipe for discharge pipework, but push fit waste pipe does usually comply.

There is mention of speedfit as discharge pipework towards the end of the page on this link.

JG Speedfit Compression Fittings Installation Advice

Item 'D' is self explanatory to try and prevent someone inadvertently connecting into it at a later date.

Martin