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OFTEC Registered - Very confused!
- Thread starter Dannypipe
- Start date
View the thread, titled "OFTEC Registered - Very confused!" which is posted in UK Plumbers Forums on UK Plumbers Forums.
K
kirkgas
i think oftec registration is optional at the moment, but like everything else, its ok till something goes wrong, then you will be asked to justify to a court why you risked someones life for the sake of a few hundred quid to get training/assessment which would have saved the incident happening (although having seen a lot of oil/gas engineers i'm not sure that is the case TBH)
Thanks Kirkgas - Very interesting, and I take your point that it's all ok until it goes wrong. However, I have installed Oil Fired Boilers for years and then paid another OFTEC registered installer to sign the Benchmark book and commision it.
Much like I did with Gas until I qualified (just being honest here - don't string me up).
My point is, the OFTEC engineer never said, 'you could do this yourself'.
I was thinking about training in oil fired boilers as there are loads where I live (infact I have one heating my home) but I think I'll just swat up with books and make sure I do safe work.
You say it's a few hundred quid - but frankly I find that hard to believe. It's more like 1000's what with training costs, registration fees, and time off.
Thanks for your reply.
Much like I did with Gas until I qualified (just being honest here - don't string me up).
My point is, the OFTEC engineer never said, 'you could do this yourself'.
I was thinking about training in oil fired boilers as there are loads where I live (infact I have one heating my home) but I think I'll just swat up with books and make sure I do safe work.
You say it's a few hundred quid - but frankly I find that hard to believe. It's more like 1000's what with training costs, registration fees, and time off.
Thanks for your reply.
O
oldplumber
previous postshave looked at this and if i remember right you cant commission boilers or install the tanks unless oftec but can do servicing etc, seem daft but hey ho
D
dontknowitall
You don't have to be registered to fiddle, service or install oil boilers. Crazy in my opinion but that's how it is. At present, as far as I'm aware, you can have a local building inspector sign off the work for you if you install a boiler.
Cost is in region of £400 - £500 per year to be OFTEC registered (including training, FGA calibration, etc).
The devil is in the paperwork though. Increasingly, solicitors are asking for documentation about household works, e.g. electrical installations, boilers and so on and this also includes servicing. So, in time, customers with oil boilers will be demanding OFTEC registered technicians.
Cost is in region of £400 - £500 per year to be OFTEC registered (including training, FGA calibration, etc).
The devil is in the paperwork though. Increasingly, solicitors are asking for documentation about household works, e.g. electrical installations, boilers and so on and this also includes servicing. So, in time, customers with oil boilers will be demanding OFTEC registered technicians.
B
barbel
Oftec is a competant peson scheme so you can self cert your work.
To install a CD10 form has to be filled in either with a technician number or building control number.
To comission the boiler you need to fill in a CD11 form but you have to take to installers number or BC number off the CD10. without this you can't comission it. Then to warranty is not valid.
Some oftec techs will bend the rules and sign a CD10 for you but they shouldn't, it's their neck on the line!
Tanks also need CD10 and are notifiable.
Servicing currently you don't need to be registered.
Cost for training £800 approx
cost for registering £510
tools i.e. FGA, smoke pump test manifolds etc £1000
and £1000 plus for van stock.
Hope this helps
To install a CD10 form has to be filled in either with a technician number or building control number.
To comission the boiler you need to fill in a CD11 form but you have to take to installers number or BC number off the CD10. without this you can't comission it. Then to warranty is not valid.
Some oftec techs will bend the rules and sign a CD10 for you but they shouldn't, it's their neck on the line!
Tanks also need CD10 and are notifiable.
Servicing currently you don't need to be registered.
Cost for training £800 approx
cost for registering £510
tools i.e. FGA, smoke pump test manifolds etc £1000
and £1000 plus for van stock.
Hope this helps
E
ecoplumber
Everthing Barbel has stated above is Wrong
"you need to do this , you need to do that ! totally wrong.
There is nothing in the Law that says a person , under the law , who is not registered with a competent persons scheme , has a legal obligation to make a building control application to install , replace, or commission an oil fired boiler.
That is where the matter ends ! so everything that Barbel states above is nonsense.
The interpretation of the applicable provision of law ,that comes into question in reference to Oil Boilers, is unenforceable under any interpretation without causing prejudice. ITS TOTALLY UNENFORCEABLE in regards to oil boilers.
There is one of the competent persons schemes out there called Oftec and they do their best to make out it is - but the law says it isn't and they clearly know this and so do their voluntary members.
I keep hearing about this small company called Oftec who clearly want to have the same image and reputation as GAS-SAFE - because there is a legal obligation on any person , as the law recognises , to install , replace or service gas boilers - and the reason for that is because the undertaking of any such work is recognised under the health and safety inspectorate unlike oil boilers.
If you want confirmation of the legal requirements contact LABC in regards to Legal Requirements if you want confirmation
Can you quote this law that that you talk about or even post a link to this law that you speak of.
I am interested in the law.
I understand that your wife is a lawyer, perhaps she can shine more light on this subject!
E
ecoplumber
Hello Helio ,
SimonG make an interesting comment.
The problem with his comment though , in reference to installing or replacing an Oil Fired Boilers , is that has got nothing to do with COMPETENCY. Why is that? The answer is very simple! There are no health and safety aspects or authority so the regulations and law doesn’t recognise the requirement or legal obligation of proving that engineers/plumbers are competent to install to Oil Fired Boilers.
I have just cut and pasted below from an email that was forwarded to another lawyer from a planning and building regulations legal specialist.
“Firstly, the law ( Building Act ) doesn’t define between a person carrying out building work- any person could be carrying out building work of any kind and would be viewed on a case by case basis – The law however identifies the homeowner as being the person responsible for any regulations that may be in place.
In regards to Oil Boilers the council would have to effectively argue that it's against the law and therefore a criminal offence for the engineer to install or replace an Oil Fired boiler without him or her being registered under a competent persons scheme or installing a boiler and having the responsibility in law to apply for permits before work has started - the council would fail in both areas based on law and regulations – So It effectively also cancels out any arguments of Oil Fired Boiler Installers requiring permission to install or replace boilers as detailed in regulations.
This is probably why I can’t find any cases of councils attempting to take actions against installers either not being registered with competent persons schemes or not applying for permits.
It is however enforceable by law in regards to GAS Boilers and this is where the confusion is - the Health and Safety Inspectorate has that covered and it’s that authority that gives councils powers in regards to GAS boilers . The Law doesn't specify this well enough imo - it is there if you look hard enough and I believe it’s widely known anyway.
If you are interested then there are 3 areas to look over - it's a bit confusing at start but when you put it all together it becomes clear.
Building Regulations 2010 PART J - more technical and not a statutory instrument - but does state references on Page 5/6
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/468872/ADJ_LOCKED.pdf
Building Regulatiions 2010 9 (see regulations for schedules)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/pdfs/uksi_20102214_en.pdf
The covering Law is the Building Act 1984 - its limited in its interpretation so the regulations cover most of that.
Other Arguments
There is an argument, under the interpretation of regulations but not supported by law, that making sure that an Oil Fired Boiler is burning correctly does have health and safety remits - I've spoken to a few councils and they may argue that the installer has to make sure that the oil boiler is “safely” installed but the law still identifies the landowner/homeowner as being responsible for this and there is good reason for this in law.
I can see the argument in this but from what i have been told its common practice that oil installers or homeowners achieve this by either employing a registered person from a 3rd party who is registered with a competent person's scheme and he or she takes over responsibility of the health and safety aspect and yearly servicing . I would have personally thought this would be better practice and written in law but im shocked that it isn’t. Some engineers who are registered with competent persons schemes can be the ones installing and doing the health and safety checks – be it Gas or Oil – which in my opinion must be wrong and makes the process of landowners or installers of any kind of boilers following a much more prudent and safety checking approach.
A council could have an argument that the building regulations, via a health and safety remit, should be making it a legal requirement that any form of boiler is commissioned and safety checked independently away from the original installer - some interesting conversations ensued as you can imagine and I agree with that process.
Applying for Permits
Under the law, is the responsibility of homeowners for any potential regulations in regards to building regulations of any kind of building work that may be regulated – mainly for 3 reasons – authority, nullity in novation arguments, and duty of care to tenants.
What Michael details in his email is irrelevant – plumbing engineers do not require building permission to install or replace an Oil Fired Boiler- it’s actually detailed within the attachments i sent him.
The only argument a council may make is the safety checks and energy efficiency protocols – all the landowner has to do is make sure that this is done through the appropriate channels.
So to conclude, if any person states that an "installer" has to have permission from a council to install or replace an oil fired boiler then he or she is wrong in law and fact.
Also , if a person states that an installer of a oil fired boiler has to be registered with a competent persons scheme then again he or she is wrong in law and fact.
SimonG make an interesting comment.
The problem with his comment though , in reference to installing or replacing an Oil Fired Boilers , is that has got nothing to do with COMPETENCY. Why is that? The answer is very simple! There are no health and safety aspects or authority so the regulations and law doesn’t recognise the requirement or legal obligation of proving that engineers/plumbers are competent to install to Oil Fired Boilers.
I have just cut and pasted below from an email that was forwarded to another lawyer from a planning and building regulations legal specialist.
“Firstly, the law ( Building Act ) doesn’t define between a person carrying out building work- any person could be carrying out building work of any kind and would be viewed on a case by case basis – The law however identifies the homeowner as being the person responsible for any regulations that may be in place.
In regards to Oil Boilers the council would have to effectively argue that it's against the law and therefore a criminal offence for the engineer to install or replace an Oil Fired boiler without him or her being registered under a competent persons scheme or installing a boiler and having the responsibility in law to apply for permits before work has started - the council would fail in both areas based on law and regulations – So It effectively also cancels out any arguments of Oil Fired Boiler Installers requiring permission to install or replace boilers as detailed in regulations.
This is probably why I can’t find any cases of councils attempting to take actions against installers either not being registered with competent persons schemes or not applying for permits.
It is however enforceable by law in regards to GAS Boilers and this is where the confusion is - the Health and Safety Inspectorate has that covered and it’s that authority that gives councils powers in regards to GAS boilers . The Law doesn't specify this well enough imo - it is there if you look hard enough and I believe it’s widely known anyway.
If you are interested then there are 3 areas to look over - it's a bit confusing at start but when you put it all together it becomes clear.
Building Regulations 2010 PART J - more technical and not a statutory instrument - but does state references on Page 5/6
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/468872/ADJ_LOCKED.pdf
Building Regulatiions 2010 9 (see regulations for schedules)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/pdfs/uksi_20102214_en.pdf
The covering Law is the Building Act 1984 - its limited in its interpretation so the regulations cover most of that.
Other Arguments
There is an argument, under the interpretation of regulations but not supported by law, that making sure that an Oil Fired Boiler is burning correctly does have health and safety remits - I've spoken to a few councils and they may argue that the installer has to make sure that the oil boiler is “safely” installed but the law still identifies the landowner/homeowner as being responsible for this and there is good reason for this in law.
I can see the argument in this but from what i have been told its common practice that oil installers or homeowners achieve this by either employing a registered person from a 3rd party who is registered with a competent person's scheme and he or she takes over responsibility of the health and safety aspect and yearly servicing . I would have personally thought this would be better practice and written in law but im shocked that it isn’t. Some engineers who are registered with competent persons schemes can be the ones installing and doing the health and safety checks – be it Gas or Oil – which in my opinion must be wrong and makes the process of landowners or installers of any kind of boilers following a much more prudent and safety checking approach.
A council could have an argument that the building regulations, via a health and safety remit, should be making it a legal requirement that any form of boiler is commissioned and safety checked independently away from the original installer - some interesting conversations ensued as you can imagine and I agree with that process.
Applying for Permits
Under the law, is the responsibility of homeowners for any potential regulations in regards to building regulations of any kind of building work that may be regulated – mainly for 3 reasons – authority, nullity in novation arguments, and duty of care to tenants.
What Michael details in his email is irrelevant – plumbing engineers do not require building permission to install or replace an Oil Fired Boiler- it’s actually detailed within the attachments i sent him.
The only argument a council may make is the safety checks and energy efficiency protocols – all the landowner has to do is make sure that this is done through the appropriate channels.
So to conclude, if any person states that an "installer" has to have permission from a council to install or replace an oil fired boiler then he or she is wrong in law and fact.
Also , if a person states that an installer of a oil fired boiler has to be registered with a competent persons scheme then again he or she is wrong in law and fact.
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