Primatic cylinder query ?

[bert large]

Hi all,

I am going to replace a friends knackered old BBU with a more modern Baxi one (I know its not condensing but she is on a very tight budget & I took this decent one out on another job).


One potential problem is that the old BBU had four tappings, one for CH F & R & another two for the gravity cylinder circuit. The replacement one only has three tappings so I'll have to make up an injector tee to put the hot water return back in but the cylinder is a primatic one.

Does anyone know if the injector tee will work alright with a primatic cylinder ?

Another problem is that I will have to alter the ends of the 28mm gravity circuit to suit the new boiler. I realise I can't use ordinary 90 degree elbows but is it ok to use 45 degree elbows to lessen the bend. I don't have bending gear for 28mm.


Cheers

 

[SimonJohns]

Do you mean to say you'll be fitting an old Baxi 552 for eg(open flue)?


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[SafeGasInstall]

get a condensing one as is mandatory now ! why can you not change the cylinder and primary Flow and return as they will be full of sludge ! then fit new system boiler f & r to boiler and put new s plan ! and problem solved for the next 10 years !
must power flush old rads and pipe work really good

 

[diamondgas]

Quite a few potential issues you're going to encounter Martin, prymatic will work just as well as any indirect cylinder on gravity! Main issue I'd envisage that could disturb the prymatic 'bubble' would be how you attach the pump with only 2 pipes coming off the boiler. There's a definite possibility that the pump will circulate around the gravity circuit and miss out the boiler....

How old is the flue liner, will it last the life time of the "new" boiler?

Personally I think you could be putting your friend in danger of fume issues in the future.... Is it really worth it?

 

[royston]

As said above there's to many potential issues, id advice an up to date system and boiler.

 

[metaldust9]

didnt think you were allowed to fit them full stop otherwise they would be still selling them,has to be condensing

 

[bert large]

Thanks for the replies, the flue liner is fine, all checked out + a decent CO alarm will also be fitted.

I am well aware of regulations regarding fitting condensing boilers & would love to fit a system boiler or combi but the problem is the old boiler has broken, parts are no longer available & this family friend really cannot afford to upgrade to new equipment with all the additional work it entails. Its a freebie job & I certainly wouldn't be doing this sort of thing for a normal customer.
The replacement BBU is around 6 years old, it was actually first fitted after the condensing rules came in !

Sorry, I gave wrong info earlier, the replacement boiler has 3 pipes, two flow & one return, hence the injector tee.

 

[EPH]

What part is faulty then?

 

[tamz]

All Baxi bbu's had 3 tappings. 2 flows and a return. On gravity the returns entered the boiler through an injector tee that was supplied with the boiler. (same tee that was on the old WM's) The tee had a plastic diffuser that went into the boiler. Get one of these tees and make your life simple. If not you could make one up no problem.
Having a primatic will make no difference and use whatever elbows you like. 90's are fine too. Just make sure you have a rise.
As for working on a primatic, just drain the heating and hw cylinder and refill when you are done. The air bubble is self forming. Don't worry about it. The hot water will be dirty for a day or so after refilling until the sediment settles in the cylinder again.

We all know what should be fitted but in the real world these things happen. Hardly a hanging offence.

Btw, the only way to check a liner is to pull it out and look at it :wink:

 

[bert large]

Thanks for all that information Tamz. Puts my mind at ease re: the injector tee & elbows.

 

[Heating-eng]

You cannot fit it. Full stop nothing more to say.

 

[Kev the gas]

We all know what should be fitted but in the real world these things happen. Hardly a hanging offence.

Btw, the only way to check a liner is to pull it out and look at it :wink:

Try telling that to the judge, when hopefully not someone dies/ you fall out with your m8/ someone falls out with you !!

You could lose it all if the papers get hold of it.

Is a favour to a m8 worth the risk?

 

[Bartdude]

Everybody is so quick to jump on the "illegal" bandwagon these days. I think that a big part of being in an engineering profession is the ability to find solutions to problems and complete jobs safely. I would never condone unsafe work but there is so much emphasis on fitting new systems wherever possible,it's indicitative of the throwaway society we live in now. Re-fitting a 6 year old Baxi BBU is much "greener" than manufacturing a new boiler. The expected lifespan of modern boilers is around 10 years,that's pathetic compared to a Trianco TRO that would still be working well 30 years later,I'd rather pay a bit more in fuel bills to avoid paying £2-3 grand every 8-10 years.

Unfortunately the industry has changed for good and that's shown by people jumping down the OPs' throat for suggesting refitting a perfectly good boiler. If you're competent and working safely I don't see the problem. I fit S\H range cookers all the time, there's no problem with that. The condensing boiler argument is sales driven,that's the reason SE boilers are outlawed.

 

[Heating-eng]

What they are doing is fitting an opened fluid boiler, I would,nt dream of having one in my house , would you?

 

[Bartdude]

What they are doing is fitting an opened fluid boiler, I would,nt dream of having one in my house , would you?

Yes,why not. I fit plenty of open flued Agas,there's lot's of open flued gas fires around. Woodburners are very popular now,they're open flued too. Installed correctly,an open flue is nothing to be scared of.

 

[tamz]

Try telling that to the judge, when hopefully not someone dies/ you fall out with your m8/ someone falls out with you !!

You could lose it all if the papers get hold of it.

Is a favour to a m8 worth the risk?

If i answered that in the language i normally use for such statements, i would be banned.

What they are doing is fitting an opened fluid boiler, I would,nt dream of having one in my house , would you?

There is nothing at all wrong with open flued appliances. A properly fitted and maintained open flued appliance is as safe as any other. Until the just in case brigade ban them, (it wont happen) they will continue to be fitted.

You may find this of some interest paticularly section 2

Redirect Notice review of carbon monoxide incident information 2009&ei=A90pTq3eLYe3hAeEqNnVCw&usg=AFQjCNHjuyEoruR5kYEU7kBwF-8HCaHd0g&cad=rja

Bart beat me to it!

 

[Heating-eng]

Can't believe what you are saying. People who feel that fitting an open fluid bbu is ok really shouldn't be working on gas and should not be gas safe that's for sure.This is not allowed for a reason, the reason is this could kill people.

 

[tamz]

Going to the shops could kill you! Don't make silly statements. The only reason people don't fit open flued back boilers is that they are not made any more. You can buy an open flued condensing boiler if you wish.

 

[stani]

Can't believe what you are saying. People who feel that fitting an open fluid bbu is ok really shouldn't be working on gas and should not be gas safe that's for sure.This is not allowed for a reason, the reason is this could kill people.

open flued boilers have been around for decades and the last time I looked they had'nt killed everyone, The trouble with fan/balanced flue boilers is they are to easy to fit and forget, whereas you have to think what you are doing when fitting open flued bbus, I fitted these for years before condensing boilers, I am gas safe and am happy to admit to fitting OF bbu's.

 

[SimonJohns]

Tbh I would rather a 552 than the icos cr*p that came with the house I bought for many reasons. But the biggest reason is cost!

Icos repair bill circa £200

552 - I could prob buy a complete working one off eBay for £50

The flue issue. No problems. Nobody has ever died from just having an open flue
They have died from having open flue WITH lack of ventilation
Or blocked flueways
Or poor servicing



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[Heating-eng]

You guys are making me worry. You are gas safe and you think it is ok to fit an old open flued bbu, who makes an opened flued condensing boiler? .....you guys are crazy.. Remember people will view this post and see that all you gas safe engineers have no regard to gas safety or the gas safety reg,s. Opened flued boilers have caused many deaths, I worked for BG and we had some figures years ago but I forget now.

 

[Bartdude]

An open flue appliance also keeps air circulating through a property and the ventilation provides much needed fresh air in houses. The hermetically sealed boxes that are built these days can't be healthy long term.

 

[Heating-eng]

I am not going to respond anymore on this post. I cannot believe what you guys are saying.

 

[SimonJohns]

You guys are making me worry. You are gas safe and you think it is ok to fit an old open flued bbu, who makes an opened flued condensing boiler? .....you guys are crazy.. Remember people will view this post and see that all you gas safe engineers have no regard to gas safety or the gas safety reg,s. Opened flued boilers have caused many deaths, I worked for BG and we had some figures years ago but I forget now.

When you service a boiler then, do you think it is acceptable to just do a FGA and if that passes, it's all ok

Or do you think a good strip and clean and check of combustion chamber for rust or other deteriations?


AND while im talkin about newer boilers. I've had worse combustion values that are within Worcesters instructions that could potentially kill someone. With a bbu you can always get perfect combustion with the odd co But the worcester is pumpin the co's out


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[tamz]

I gave you a link to lots of figures regarding incidents over the past years in post #16, second bottom line redirect notice. Have a read through section 2 and you may learn something.
I have no qualms whatsoever about open flued appliances.
The open flued condensing boilers available are commercial stuff. Something an ex BG employee would never have come across.
Idea imax off the top of my head among others.

 

[SimonJohns]

Lol have to take my hat off to Tamz. I work on open flue Condensing boilers everyweek

Couldn't we start a poll as to what we would all rather

I vote for 552 s-plan uvhws


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[Puddle]

thread moved to the arms,think better placed here ,hope ok with all

 

[stani]

You guys are making me worry. You are gas safe and you think it is ok to fit an old open flued bbu, who makes an opened flued condensing boiler? .....you guys are crazy.. Remember people will view this post and see that all you gas safe engineers have no regard to gas safety or the gas safety reg,s. Opened flued boilers have caused many deaths, I worked for BG and we had some figures years ago but I forget now.

I think this is more a case of you dont know how to fit open flued appliances so they must be no good, in that case its a good idea not to do it, and leave these appliances to people who are obviously from their comments perfectly competent to do so.

 

[Heating-eng]

Glad it has been moved in here. You guys are crazy, you list all the details of your companies in your signatures and then advise people to fit gas boilers that are not allowed. Only takes one person to copy the posts and send to gas safe and some engineers maybe getting a visit.I have never seen a condensing open flued boiler this is correct. I would never need to as I only work on domestic.As for the do,s and don,ts of fitting the bbu, that really does not matter, the point is you guys would be so silly to advise it in an open forum for all to see.

 

[Heating-eng]

Stani. I have worked on open flued boilers for many years. I know how to fit one no problem. The problem is we are not allowed to fit them.but in an open forum you say it is ok ?.Think you need to go and get some retraining as you do not know what you are talking about.

 

[stani]

unfortunately you are turning this into personal, i have also fitted these for a few years, possibly i might need some updating, not sure though I had my re-assessment 2 years ago, has a lot changed, I choose to use common sense, when helping customers I find then they ask me back.

 

[Heating-eng]

Sorry it is not getting personal from my point of view. I am just responding to the posts that are listed.Things have not changed that much in the last 2 years no. But 2 years ago you still couldn't fit an open flued boiler of any kind.Common sense tells me not to post we can fit something in an open forum that we not allowed to fit.

 

[stani]

the thing is Bert-larg is refitting a 6year old bbu for a friend who cannot afford new, as long as he can fit safely what is the problem. the key word is 'safely'
as said earlier in the post we are to used to a throw away world, ideally we would be giving everyone a brand new state of the art boiler with ultimate control, only its not an ideal world, BBus have been fitted safely for years, they dont suddenly overnight become dangerous.

 

[tamz]

I think you need to get a grip here heating eng. I don't give 2 hoots if gas safe see anything i write. There is nothing to hide and don't think for a minute moving it in here hides it from view!
Fitting a non condensing boiler is a building regs issue not gas safe and who is to prove anything. Indead new non condensing boilers are still being fitted every day!
If i was approached by someone i knew, given the circumstances of the OP, i would probably do the same. Do you think even although i remove 2 or 3 perfectly good working boilers every week, i should tell my mate when his boiler dies to take out a bank loan to buy a heap of junk that theoretically runs 10 - 12% more efficient or do i keep him a good one and fit it for a bottle of malt.

Some people see this trade as being something special, almost an elite club which it most certainly is not.

 

[Heating-eng]

the thing is Bert-larg is refitting a 6year old bbu for a friend who cannot afford new, as long as he can fit safely what is the problem. the key word is 'safely' as said earlier in the post we are to used to a throw away world, ideally we would be giving everyone a brand new state of the art boiler with ultimate control, only its not an ideal world, BBus have been fitted safely for years, they dont suddenly overnight become dangerous.

I agree with you on most of these points. But I don,t agree with advising it can be done in an open forum.
The problem is you are advising that he can fit it, when he is not allowed to do it.