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Room Sealed appliances in cupboards / compartments ?

View the thread, titled "Room Sealed appliances in cupboards / compartments ?" which is posted in UK Plumbers Forums on UK Plumbers Forums.

B

Blumper

Just a question for all you experienced fella's......... do you come across many room sealed combi's in small cupboards / enclosures etc that have ventilation provisions ? I only ask because I've seen three this week alone in houses in cupboards under stairs and in small cupboards in kitchens etc, none of which have any air vents.......now, I know that these spaces are not 'normally' considered compartments, but where then do you make a distinction between a 'small space' that doesn't require any additional ventilation, and an actual compartment that does, as per the regs, even for a room sealed appliance ?
I only ask this because a recently installed Worcester 24i Greenstar in a small under-stairs cupboard is, according to the customer, getting very hot to touch when operating..............and as one of the resons for ventilation is cooling it just raised the question in my head about making the distinction and decision to regard the location as either a small space or an actual compartment which therefor requires purpose made ventilation ? Any thoughts would be appreciated, ta.
 
I would be guided by the manufacturers instructions. If WB said there boiler could be fitted into a space, say 400 wide, by 800 high, by 400 deep. As long as all clearances are as per mi's than that is good enough for me. Obviously adding an extra vent, if preferred, then do so to aid cooling, but a modern steamer should not be getting that hot. Imho
 
The Worcester 24i M.I's give the mimimum dimensions the boiler can be installed in a 'ventilated' compartment, and they advise high and low level ventilation if the compartment is smaller than the desired dimensions..............and the regs state that a room sealed boiler installed in a 'room' or 'internal' space does not need it....but that doesn't cover a 'compartment'...........to which they don't directly refer.....bit grey I think.....but I wouldn't agree that they don't need it, full stop....isn't ventilation in an enclosed compartment advantageous in the event of a gas escape within it ?
 
condensing boilers dont need ventilation, even for cooling

As has been said above, MI's rule and most will quote a vent free compartment size. Worcestershire definitely require ventilation if they are in a small enough space.


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I think BS5440-2 defines a compartment as being "an enclosure (not being a habitable space) that is specifically designed or adapted to accommodate one or more gas appliances" - there's no mention of a minimum volume etc. CORGI EGS 5th Ed also suggests that other small spaces containing gas appliancescould be treated as compartments, I think the general gist of it is that if the space is small enough such that the operation of the appliance could feasibly cause a tangible rise in the temperature of that space, then you should be thinking of whether or not you need to treat it as a compartment. It's not the case that condensing boilers do not need compartment ventilation - the key thing is what the manufacturer's say. It's unlikely that a condenser will need compartment ventilation, because of the high efficiency, there is little heat leftover to leak into the appliance surroundings. That said, some do - it's been a while since I fitted a worcester if I'm honest, but I think it was on the junior that used to say that compartment vents were not need unless the clearances around the appliance were reduced below certain constraints, if you had surfaces within these constraints you used to have to fit vents.
 
years ago i asked the corgi inspector what the definition of when its a compartment or a room his reply was if you can get in with it and shut the door its a room if you cant its a compartment which when you think about it makes good sense
 
yea, I guess so, the only thing then is that you're then dependent upon the size of the geezer trying to squeeze in the cupboard. maybe that's what apprentices are for...

I did do a stint teaching the ACS going back 4-5 years ago and this question used to get asked quite a lot. A lot of people referred to minimum volume etc, but I could find nothing to base that on, I tried old CORGI manuals, all the standards we had at the centre, but nothing of anything more specific than that in BS5440-2. The other thing to be mindful of with compartments understairs, is when you get into the realms of building with more than two storeys - think you've got to be mindful about the routing and termination of ventilation paths and fireproofing etc - re: protected shafts etc...
 
....here's a mate in what must be a 'room' then.........😀 I was able to close the door on him and leave him work in peace.......


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years ago i asked the corgi inspector what the definition of when its a compartment or a room his reply was if you can get in with it and shut the door its a room if you cant its a compartment which when you think about it makes good sense
I think the inspector is way off the mark here. So a boiler in a small broom cupboard just large enough for you to fit inside is not a compartment? Utter rubbish!
To a degree it is down to individual interpretation, but if it is not a habitable area it is classed as a compartment.

condensing boilers dont need ventilation, even for cooling
Your average condensing boiler may not require cooling ventilation as long as the manufacturers minimum clearances are met. Otherwise cooling ventilation may be required.
 
Has anyone got any idea where this 5m^3 figure comes from? I've heard so many people bring up this figure, there's surely got to be some basis for it.
 
Pretty sure 5m3 is what the regs state - that's what I was recently taught. Only exception is if the MIs say otherwise.
 
cheers resolute, i appreciate your input, but my question is which standards? i've just had a quick squizz at bs 6798 and 5440, and they're both pretty vague (unless I've missed a specific reference in them somewhere). i would've thought if there was going to be a specific, size based definition of a compartment somewhere, those two standards would've been a good starting place. any ideas?
 
That's the point, I've read the regs and the bs standards you mention and there is plenty of reference to 'rooms', 'internal spaces' such as landings etc but compartments are non-specific in all the literature, worse still, the area is often just reffered to as the 'space'...! Nor, having read enough about this to do my head in, can I find a reference to 5m3 or below being a compartment for the purpose of ventilation in any standard or the regs.

For my two tuppence worth, in the instance of a room sealed appliance being situated in a 'cupboard', 'compartment' or anything else too small to swing a cat in, ventilation should be addressed IF the dimensions of said 'space' are less in any dimension than the M.I's state are required as minimum for installation and servicing..........at least until it becomes clear that there are in fact defined definitions of said spaces and the required dimensions thereof........!
 
blimey - I was getting a bit discombobulated with all the wherein's therein's and thereof there mate. I think all you can do mate is refer to the guidance that you know to be solid and reliable - that being what's in say BS5440:2 and the Gospel according to CORGI/Gas Safe.

I haven't got any of the gas safe books other than the USP booklet (been made redundant, so no money to buy any either), but in the 5th edition of the corgi manual (and I think it was in the previous versions) it does give some guidance on the matter in terms of what might be seen a interpretation or guidance on the provisions set down in bs5440 - nothing concrete, just a description of things to consider.

IMHO it's too easy to get bogged down thinking of trying to define what is/what is not a compartment. At the end of the day, I think if you're assessing an internal space and you could reasonably argue that this space is not subject to the same number of air changes per hour, or the same adventitious ventilation as you would expect in a normal room (i know this doesn't factor in RS installs), and it fits the definition described in the standards you need to be thinking "do I feel happier treating this as a compartment or not" or to put it another way "do I feel happy NOT treating it as a compartment?".

Imagine a 3 bed 1970s semi with a flat roofed enclosed pvc porch on the front or back. Now imagine there's a boiler fitted in there with a vertical flue - let's say it's room sealed fanned draught to avoid complications with minimum flue heights and adventitious ventilation. Granted, it's probably going to look terrible - boiler in a porch?! but it makes a point.

you could turn around and say, well, it aint a compartment, it's a porch.

but from a point of view of the installation, the environment in which the appliance is installed is vastly different to an installation in a typical room. We have a situation whereby we have nothing like the normal ventilation set up, the space is very much smaller and so we could not reasonably expect to have similar adventitious ventilation, and certainly if it turns out that this entrance to the house is not used on a regular basis, we could expect this porch to be closed up for extended periods - resulting in greatly reduced air changes. Couple this with heating from solar gains and you're going to be thinking, yep, it's likely to be getting a bit stuffy in there, and now someone's gone and stuck a boiler in there (which I think they say could emit as much as 750W of heat energy (probably cast iron heavyweight boilers) - not far off a 1 bar electric fire). it's not really going to help much eh? It's likely that the ambient temperature in there is going to be higher than in the normal rooms of the house on a regular basis. The appliance is intended to be installed for operation at the sort of ambient temperatures found in homes. So the question you then ask yourself is, "do I still feel happy treating it as a porch or should I be thinking this is more of a compartment installation?".

I know it's a bit wordy, and I can't sit here and claim I know all there is to know or anything (i'm sure there are blokes out there who've forgotten more than i know), but I've got little else to do but sit here and type and I hope it explains a bit of how I think about compartments, and what guidance I base that thought process upon.

Also be mindful of ensuring that there is provision to ensure stored articles are kept separate from the appliance (I think 5440 or it could be 6798 specifies a barrier posssibly mesh upto 13mm, affording a 75mm separation i think) unless the manufacturer says you don't need it.
 
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5m3 is from the bpec gas training manual, just dug it out and it says "a compartment is an enclosure specially used to house a gas appliance. If there is any doubt whether an appliance is housed in a compartment or a room, the rule of thumb is, if it is below 5m3 then it may be regarded as a compartment. So it's just a rule of thumb
 
Cheers bennygas, that's a top notch example and explains clearly why serious informed thought should always be applied when considering ventilation..........and sorry to hear you've been laid off, you obviously know your stuff so here's hoping something else falls in your lap sooner rather than later.

It's also evident that in order to be well informed, one has to possess every bit of written bumf about gas....I don't have the bpec training manual from which mikegas was able to clarify the 5m3 compartment size...........corgi, gas safe, viper, bpec, construction skills, bs standards etc etc etc............what a nightmare....
 
no worries mate. on the work front, got an offer outstanding at the minute - they told me I got the job a week ago, but they still can't decide how much they'll pay me! if the money aint there, I aint getting involved. still, got a couple of interviews arranged for a couple of weeks time - jobs i'd really like. suppose it's just a bit of a gamble eh? If all else fails, it looks as though I'm off to be a physics teacher! bit of a change in tack.
 
Well very best of luck either way, if your qualified as well to each physics, you'll no doubt come good..........and there I was feeling sorry for you ; )
 
no need for pity! i'm big enough and definately ugly enough to sort things out! just seems like a long drawn out game all this applying for jobs lark - in work i'm busy all day, sat waiting round for the post does yer nut in. get there in the end though eh!
 
I think the inspector is way off the mark here. So a boiler in a small broom cupboard just large enough for you to fit inside is not a compartment? Utter rubbish!
To a degree it is down to individual interpretation, but if it is not a habitable area it is classed as a compartment.


Your average condensing boiler may not require cooling ventilation as long as the manufacturers minimum clearances are met. Otherwise cooling ventilation may be required.
now your being pedantic or maybe my wording didnt read right i still stand by his principle if you can go in and close the doorwhile attending the boiler its a room which ties in with the 5 m2 being spoken of else where
a small broom cupboard is a cupboard no matter how many apprentices you can squeeze in
 

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