Toilet won't flush

[hardya]

Hi I don't know if you can help me. I've looked at numerous videos but none of them seem to match my symptom.

The toilet wonte flush basically because the valve wonte open. when you pull the handle the metal hook pulls a kind of sall plunger all the way up to the top of a small tube but it doesn't seem to open the valve to flush the toilet. None of the videos seem to mention this tube thing. the handle doesn't seem to be adjustable, but as far as I can see it pulls the plunger thing all the way up to the top just like it used to.

I infer from the videos that we have a cyfon toilet. Most videos mention replacing flapper valve only for leaking which I don't have. One video doesn't mention the leaking but says the flapper valve will need replacing if it doesn't lift up so maybe it does need replacing, and they say you have to remove the entire cyfon to change the flapper valve, but they don't say how and it seems to be stuck fast.

Any help or advice greatly appreciated.

 

[johnmcginty]

You need a new syphon or a new diaphragm , i would call a plumber , will cost around £65 probably depending on where you live and if that is the only part you need.

 

[SimonG]

If its a syphon toilet then the plastic diaphragm is split/broken and will need replacing. If it's not a 2 or 3 part syphon and its a close coupled cistern then the toilet cistern will need removing to replace the diaphragm.

 

[SimonG]

Beat me to it!!!

 

[hardya]

Ok thanks.

Sounds maybe like diaphram replacement.

Found this:
DIY - Plumbing - Toilet Won't Flush

But amongst the resolution instructions is 'flush the toilet'! It won't fush, so I guess I have to bail it out by hand right?

 

[SimonG]

Use a cup or small jug and mop up last bits with a sponge. Or lift it off carefully when full and tip in bath, although sponge route is less messy.

 

[johnmcginty]

I always use the power plunger to suck out the water

 

[hardya]

Thanks for all your help.

I now have in my hand the thing described at:
DIY - Plumbing - Toilet Won't Flush
and by you I think, as a diaphragm.

Forgive the utter layperson terminology. It appears to be a hard plastic framework with a thin flexible perspex like sheet behind. The sheet is severely ripped, so I guess this is the culprit. I guess now I just need to find out how much/little I am allowed/able to replace.

A couple of things still puzzling me though.
1. Where is the thing every one refers to as a flapper valve? I see no other valve type thing, are flapper valve and diaphragm functionally the same thing?
2. I though this kind of damage to this item was supposed to cause repeated leaking into bowl and refilling, but I wasn't getting these symptoms which was why I didn't look to this as the problem at first.

Thanks again to all for helping this utter novice!

 

[SimonG]

1. Flapper valve is another type of flushing device, basically a rubber plug on a chain. You pull the handle and the chain lifts the plug on a hinge and then closes again.
2. Thats on a drop valve flushing system.
A syphon is just that, as you pull the handle the piston lifts the diaphragm thats now flat against the plastic mesh. This lifts the volume of water over the top of the syphon and starts to "syphon" the contents of the system. At this point the diaphragm curls up with the force of the water until the syphon is broken by the lack of water in the cistern. The diaphragm then returns to its starting position.

 

[hardya]

Thanks for that. Still stringling with the vocab, but any way.

Having said this, what many have described as an hour's job is now beginning to extend quite abit.

Been over an hour now just trying to put the cystern back on. Nothing seems to mary up to where it was before and there seems to be now designed way for the bolts to be easily installed. You have to hope they don't slide out of place while you place the heavy cystern in the right place trying to get the loose bolts through the small holes not being able to see what you are doing.

Even if I manage this, the two bolts, the two pipes and the two bolts for the 'back' of the cystern all seem to be out of line, so I have to start again.

Any tips?

 

[SimonG]

Persistence and a couple of dabs of clear silicone to hold the bolts in place whilst positioning cistern works for me. I always fit a new doughnut washer (rubber or foam ring between cistern and pan) as well.

 

[hardya]

I finally have the cystern on, but I think I may have put the rubber seal on the wrong side of the metal plate that holds the bolts.

However I have a couple of other strange problems now. The joint for the incoming water seems to leak all over the place no matter how tight/loose I set it and strangely the arm from the handle that pulls the plunger up now makes contact with the syphon making it difficult to pull the handle.

 

[tamz]

You will probably need a new fibre washer for the incoming adaptor.
You can move the arm slightly along the handle so it misses the syphon.

 

[hardya]

Ok, thanks. I still think I may have places the rubber washing incorrectly under the cystern. I think it should probably have been rubber washer, then metal plate, then the doughnut thing. I put the metal plate first cos' I thought that may have been effecting the hieght or somthing, but I think it probably gets drawn down when you tighten the bolts.

 

[tamz]

Rubber washer is fitted to the syphon then passed through the cistern. Next fit the plate then the nut (sometimes a plastic washer in between nut and plate). Then the donut washer to seal between the cistern and pan.
If you have built it wrong it will leak.

 

[hardya]

Right. The place I put it AND the place I thought I should have put it were both wrong. How stupid!! That's also what's affecting the height. Thanks again.

 

[hardya]

Weired, I have it all apart again and there IS a washer fitted to the syphon before passing through the cistern. I missed it. It is transparent/same color. Also it isn't just a flat washer, but part of it fits around and extends for 1/4 inch down the threaded pipe as a further seal. This also makes it unlikely that my other rubber washer should go there because it wouldn't sit flat against the syphon due to the extended part of the pre-existing rubber washer. Maybe it just goes between the plate and the cistern for added seal. I dunno.

 

[tamz]

Between the plate and the cistern

 

[hardya]

Last time it took me an hour to get it all back on. I've been trying to solve this for about 6 hours now. I guess I should have just realised I'd always been rubish at DIY and just waited for a plumber. Oh well, thanks for your patience.

 

[SimonG]

Well done for hanging on in there.

Sounds like at least the nuts and bolts were'nt rusted. Thats why when I come across this, with the customers agreement, I just fit a 2 part syphon.

 

[hardya]

Finally finished. Bought a new fibre washer and stemmed leak. A couple of people think it doesn't flush that well, but it works fine for me and others! Just has to be pulled at consistent speed.

One issue though:

There seems to be nothing in the design that causes the plate to self position or makes it obvious whether it is precisely positioned or not and it is prone to movement while tightening the plastic nut on the syphon tube. This coupled with the fact that I have installed a new donut washer means that the cystern no longer sits at exactly same hieght (seemingly no matter how much I tighten the bolts) and nolonger sits quite so paralell/flush with the wall behind. This means I can nolonger bolt it to the wall as previously because I cannot get the original holes to line up.

Since the process is so fiddly and time consuming, I am loath to keep taking it all off and attempting to get the plate precisely straight. Also not sure how to get the cystern as low as it was before. I guess the difference is only a few milimeters, but far enough to prevent using the holes on the back again. Still seems quite sturdy though.

Thanks again.

 

[tamz]

Well done with persevering with it.

Give the cistern a wee twist. It will move, and drill a couple of new holes.

 

[Dotty]

Agree with Tamz.

But be careful or you'll be starting all over again and putting in a new cistern!

 

[WaterTight]

well done on spending 6 hours doing a syphon change. now go out and tell the world how hard it is and point them all in my direction.