today i watched two eastern europeans arrive at a property in a h reg honda acord with 4 lengths of copper and a length of overflow poking out the sunfoof they then unloaded a wickes boiler they were in the house three hours and came out with an old boiler job done
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View the thread, titled "why ive got no work" which is posted in Gaining Plumbing Experience on UK Plumbers Forums.
D
dontknowitall
It took them THAT long?
Terrible - perhaps (hindsight's a great thing) you should have taken the reg and a photo of the car then reported them. Or get Gassafe to call in to the customer?
Terrible - perhaps (hindsight's a great thing) you should have taken the reg and a photo of the car then reported them. Or get Gassafe to call in to the customer?
F
fuzzy
mmmmmmmmmmm.they gas safe????? should report it
Terrible, but it's the customer who will pay the price...eventually those charletens will do something dangerous...worse case they might end up killing somone.
Worrying thing is, if they got caught now, what would be the punishment? Maybe £1000 fine. Really going to scare them off with sort of authority.
Worrying thing is, if they got caught now, what would be the punishment? Maybe £1000 fine. Really going to scare them off with sort of authority.
U
Uncle_Nige
As a regular punter, I've always used "official" plumbers, even tried once to use plumbers that belong to some Guild or other (CIPHE).
I've lost count of the amount of times I've taken a day off work to wait for a plumber who didn't turn up at the scheduled time, or even at all, wasting me a days work. That's annoying, but bad workmanship and incompetence is worse:
Three years ago, I moved house and employed a local CIPHE Gas Safe/Corgi plumber to remodel my bathroom and fit a new boiler.
If I hadn't have been home on a couple of occasions he would, quite literally, have flooded the house due to lack of care (radiators with open valves while filling up system, for example). He trashed a new carpet due to lack of adequate protection, fitted a window with no cills, cocked up tiling three times, gouged a huge hole in the kitchen wall below the bathroom while fitting a shower waste, chipped a radiator before AND after installation and attempted to fit a shower cubicle TWICE to a wall that wasn't true (his wall), which leaked and destroyed a new laminate floor. The list goes on. He visited 12 times to try and repair the leak before stripping the whole thing down, retiling and refitting the enclosure. It still leaked. He claimed 25 years experience in plumbing, had a registered company and a fleet of vans, but couldn't fit a shower that didn't leak?
I complained to CIPHE - Absolutely useless. A trading association masquerading as some sort of regulatory body imho. I threatened the original plumber with legal action and he paid for someone else to redo the shower.
I then contacted 3 CIPHE plumbers for an estimate. The first came round and didn't even look at the job, just dissed the other plumber and the stuff he's put in. The second suggested some strips of plastic against the shower cubicle (on the brand new shower that was leaking from below). The third failed to turn up.
I then contacted a plumber that I found on this site. He had all the tiling stripped, the wall replastered, the tiling redone and a new shower enclosure fitted. During this work he found that the original plumber had used the wrong type of adhesive for the tiles, and that water had got behind the tiles. This remedial work was finished in August 2009.
In October 2010, the shower started to leak from behind. I contacted the last used plumber (he seemed pretty good) At that point I had no reason to believe that it was his responsibility to repair, and didn't ask for free work.- No response to online forms on his site or emails. Eventually, just before Christmas I received a reply "very busy, contact us after Christmas". Fair enough. Multiple emails after Christmas were unanswered, so I gave up and found another plumber.
This latest plumber has now found that the work done by the previous plumber wasn't up to scratch, causing long term leakage behind the tiles which has seeped down into the kitchen and underneath the vinyl in the bathroom. The grouting has all but gone, and the sealant wasn't (apparently) of good enough quality. I've just paid this latest plumber to redo the grouting and reseal the shower not much more than a year after the job that was supposed to have been done properly.
Now, each time I've used local established firms with apparently good track records. Most have been members of some guild or other. All have been Gas Safe and Corgi. It's not been cheap, but then I don't mind paying a fair price for a fair job.
The problem is, I've never yet met a plumber who could actually do their job properly, but who has no problem with taking the going rate for a job. I understand that plumbing isn't a precise science, but how many plumbers does it take to fit a shower properly? You're only as good as your last job, and in my experience, there are a lot of shoddy workmen out there who's last job was awful. I have no confidence in anyone in the plumbing trade and imho there's no regulatory body that can deal with the supposedly legit people who can't do a job properly.
I did once employ a couple of eastern Europeans to do some general building and labouring. Advantages over the local blokes? Cheaper, cleaner, always on time and did a sturdy long lasting job.
Given the choice between a kosher plumber with letters after his name and a shiny website, who will charge the full going rate, turn in shoddy work and then ignore me, or a "risky" eastern European who charges less and usually does a better job with less mess and less moaning, which do you think I'll choose next time?
Of course, when it comes to gas work, then I would always employ someone who was registered Gas Safe (and I think I may have at last found a decent heating engineer), but tbh that's more to do with legal requirements than that I think that someone who can put a logo on their website is any more competent than someone who isn't "registered".
I'm sure that there are decent, competent plumbers out there, just not found one yet.
If you're losing work to eastern Europeans, then it's down to the officially sanctioned charlatans that make the average customer like me go for the cheaper option. If my house gets flooded, then at least I've not paid through the nose and wasted hours of my working time for the privilege.
I've lost count of the amount of times I've taken a day off work to wait for a plumber who didn't turn up at the scheduled time, or even at all, wasting me a days work. That's annoying, but bad workmanship and incompetence is worse:
Three years ago, I moved house and employed a local CIPHE Gas Safe/Corgi plumber to remodel my bathroom and fit a new boiler.
If I hadn't have been home on a couple of occasions he would, quite literally, have flooded the house due to lack of care (radiators with open valves while filling up system, for example). He trashed a new carpet due to lack of adequate protection, fitted a window with no cills, cocked up tiling three times, gouged a huge hole in the kitchen wall below the bathroom while fitting a shower waste, chipped a radiator before AND after installation and attempted to fit a shower cubicle TWICE to a wall that wasn't true (his wall), which leaked and destroyed a new laminate floor. The list goes on. He visited 12 times to try and repair the leak before stripping the whole thing down, retiling and refitting the enclosure. It still leaked. He claimed 25 years experience in plumbing, had a registered company and a fleet of vans, but couldn't fit a shower that didn't leak?
I complained to CIPHE - Absolutely useless. A trading association masquerading as some sort of regulatory body imho. I threatened the original plumber with legal action and he paid for someone else to redo the shower.
I then contacted 3 CIPHE plumbers for an estimate. The first came round and didn't even look at the job, just dissed the other plumber and the stuff he's put in. The second suggested some strips of plastic against the shower cubicle (on the brand new shower that was leaking from below). The third failed to turn up.
I then contacted a plumber that I found on this site. He had all the tiling stripped, the wall replastered, the tiling redone and a new shower enclosure fitted. During this work he found that the original plumber had used the wrong type of adhesive for the tiles, and that water had got behind the tiles. This remedial work was finished in August 2009.
In October 2010, the shower started to leak from behind. I contacted the last used plumber (he seemed pretty good) At that point I had no reason to believe that it was his responsibility to repair, and didn't ask for free work.- No response to online forms on his site or emails. Eventually, just before Christmas I received a reply "very busy, contact us after Christmas". Fair enough. Multiple emails after Christmas were unanswered, so I gave up and found another plumber.
This latest plumber has now found that the work done by the previous plumber wasn't up to scratch, causing long term leakage behind the tiles which has seeped down into the kitchen and underneath the vinyl in the bathroom. The grouting has all but gone, and the sealant wasn't (apparently) of good enough quality. I've just paid this latest plumber to redo the grouting and reseal the shower not much more than a year after the job that was supposed to have been done properly.
Now, each time I've used local established firms with apparently good track records. Most have been members of some guild or other. All have been Gas Safe and Corgi. It's not been cheap, but then I don't mind paying a fair price for a fair job.
The problem is, I've never yet met a plumber who could actually do their job properly, but who has no problem with taking the going rate for a job. I understand that plumbing isn't a precise science, but how many plumbers does it take to fit a shower properly? You're only as good as your last job, and in my experience, there are a lot of shoddy workmen out there who's last job was awful. I have no confidence in anyone in the plumbing trade and imho there's no regulatory body that can deal with the supposedly legit people who can't do a job properly.
I did once employ a couple of eastern Europeans to do some general building and labouring. Advantages over the local blokes? Cheaper, cleaner, always on time and did a sturdy long lasting job.
Given the choice between a kosher plumber with letters after his name and a shiny website, who will charge the full going rate, turn in shoddy work and then ignore me, or a "risky" eastern European who charges less and usually does a better job with less mess and less moaning, which do you think I'll choose next time?
Of course, when it comes to gas work, then I would always employ someone who was registered Gas Safe (and I think I may have at last found a decent heating engineer), but tbh that's more to do with legal requirements than that I think that someone who can put a logo on their website is any more competent than someone who isn't "registered".
I'm sure that there are decent, competent plumbers out there, just not found one yet.
If you're losing work to eastern Europeans, then it's down to the officially sanctioned charlatans that make the average customer like me go for the cheaper option. If my house gets flooded, then at least I've not paid through the nose and wasted hours of my working time for the privilege.
B
Blackcatgas
I'm sure that there are decent, competent plumbers out there, just not found one yet.
If you're losing work to eastern Europeans, then it's down to the officially sanctioned charlatans that make the average customer like me go for the cheaper option. If my house gets flooded, then at least I've not paid through the nose and wasted hours of my working time for the privilege.
If your house blows up, or you and your family are poisoned by CO1, then at least youve not paid through the nose and wasted hours of your working time for the privilege.
If you're losing work to eastern Europeans, then it's down to the officially sanctioned charlatans that make the average customer like me go for the cheaper option. If my house gets flooded, then at least I've not paid through the nose and wasted hours of my working time for the privilege.
If your house blows up, or you and your family are poisoned by CO1, then at least youve not paid through the nose and wasted hours of your working time for the privilege.
having worked with eastern europeans i can safely say they arent as good as people make them out to be, i worked with one polish plumber who was good though he wasnt much better than anyone i worked with before he was just the same as us but with a different accent. the problem with the eastern europeans is communication they made major mistakes on commercial sites ive worked on because they kid on they understand but they really dont.
you just have to find a good reliable plumber, and stick by him there are alot out there and i'd say we outnumber the cowboys
you just have to find a good reliable plumber, and stick by him there are alot out there and i'd say we outnumber the cowboys
U
Uncle_Nige
Granted - And someone having a Gas Safe certificate guarantees against that does it?
My point is that in my experience the qualified, experienced, registered, certificated, guilded plumbers that I've had experience with have, without exception, made total pigs ears out of the jobs I've given them. Luckily, so far, none of the jobs have caused death or injury (just lots of damage, stress and cash).
As I mentioned in my previous post with the exception of gas safety jobs there's no reason for me not to go with an eastern European, for example, rather than a local established plumber.
My logic may be faulty, but the plumbers who I've experienced were Gas Safe, and couldn't do the simple jobs. Makes me worry that they'd be just as cack-handed with the critical gas work. I did have the original (Gas Safe's) boiler installation checked by the boiler manufacturer and another (Gas Safe) heating engineer. They laughed at the set-up, but from a safety point of view it's fortunately ok.
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Puddle
I am sorry you have had bad experiences with plumbers, we know there are problems within our industry with all nationalities, including ‘Eastern Europeans’ calling themselves plumbers which they are not or very inexperienced
However if you complained to the CIPHE and you had a legitimate complaint ,especially as you describe, which I find hard to believe of a member, it would have been investigated and action taken
imho
U
Uncle_Nige
I'm sure you're right. Just an expensive and messy process having to wade through the ones that are bad!
U
Uncle_Nige
I did go through the CIPHE complaints process. Basically it came down to the fact that the CIPHE plumber refunded me the money to go and get another (non CIPHE, as it happens) plumber. Apparently this was enough for the CIPHE not to take any action. The quality of the work didn't seem to matter to them, just that he'd paid me the money back to get the job done by someone else. Kinda misses the point, I think.
To expand -
CIPHE said:
That's from the CIPHE website. So, I employed a CIPHE member. He made a total hash of the job and gave up. He refunded me the money and I got another plumber to remedy his defects.
I complained to the CIPHE about the quality of that member's work, and it does nothing. He paid me back, so it's all fine as far as they're concerned. The plumber in question is still a CIPHE member. How can I ever be confident about a CIPHE plumber again?
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Blackcatgas
,,,,,,,,,
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paul78
tiler for tiling and plumber for plumbing... its not rocket science to fit tiles but understanding the correct uses of different adhesives/grouts etc makes all the difference for longlasting results.
i know a plumber who tiles and uses PVA to seal the walls!! and iv seen him using lead solder on drinking water just because its cheaper!!
i know a plumber who tiles and uses PVA to seal the walls!! and iv seen him using lead solder on drinking water just because its cheaper!!
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Barry98
uncle nige , and i mean this by no offence implied or intended but if you've had that many bad experiences with plumbers and each one blames the last do you think maybe theres an issue in the relationship between you and them ?
just a thought
just a thought
U
Uncle_Nige
well to be honest mate any work i done for you would be me doing the plumbing work only, and a qualified tiler doing the tiling work, joiner doing the joiner work and so on. I specialise in plumbing and heating, not tiling ! I know people do this but I don't intend on doing it myself, I just got my sparky mates to rewire my girlfriends house and when i said I'll get my uncle to plaster it they said they had their own "plasterer" turns out the guy was a joiner, took 3 days made a mess off it and her dad had to sort it ! although they already gave him the £300 I was really annoyed as I would of probably gave the guy 300 punches instead of the money.
But you see my point that there are people like this everywhere
But you see my point that there are people like this everywhere
U
Uncle_Nige
As in I'm doing something wrong? Well, I'm always polite, I always pay on time, I always make them cups of tea. I make it as clear as possible what I want, as in "Please come and look at this leaking shower. What do you think is causing it? What do you propose would fix it? How much will it cost for you to fix it?"
Bear in mind that this is not some sort of interior design thing here. I'm not some high maintenance Essex bint changing her mind about the colour of the tiles every five minutes and expecting miracles. Unless of course, plumber don't deal with the physics of running water nowadays?
In which case, yes, it's my fault entirely. I'm expecting too much. Pay money for well-defined job to be done. Job not done properly.
P
paul78
it is shocking when i see this type of thing. the best bit is hes 100% adament you use pva. im not kidding he may as well try to sweat his joints with pva, he is an absolute joke!! thats why i refuse to work with him again as he thinks he knows everything about anything. qualifications mean nothing if the person just cant be bothered about pride in their work.
once you find an honest, reliable trustworthy tradesman KEEP HIM.
once you find an honest, reliable trustworthy tradesman KEEP HIM.
some people are only in it for the money and dont care about anything else
U
Uncle_Nige
I do see your point. Definitely. And have certainly learned.
The first plumber did everything (hence the bad tiling). The second plumber brought in a professional tiler (which I though would be better). The third plumber says that the tiling wasn't done properly and the sealing wasn't done properly either.
Unless I train to be a plumber myself, I have to rely on the professional opinion of plumbers. Unfortunately, I've had a bad run, but I take the point that you're not all like that and one day.....
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paul78
thats the problem i find nowadays tradesman trying to do every trade themself, just stick to what your good at.... SIMPLES
agree, jack of all trades master of none
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paul78
nige just be careful even if the words 'professional' TILER, PLUMBER ETC gets used. but i know where your coming from when you naturally trust them. always try to get recommended trademan from people you trust, that way you should have better success in finding the right people.
U
Uncle_Nige
Agreed. The problem with the first plumber was that he didn't seem to be good at anything. Ok, so his tiling wasn't brilliant and his plastering wasn't all that good, but with his plumber's head on, wouldn't he realise that jamming a shower enclosure against a wall that was off true was never going to work? Isn't that a basic plumbing skill - to understand how water works?
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paul78
did he sot n dab the walls thats why they wasnt true..... or build it with timber.....
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