Does anyone know how this happens

[Sue66]

Pinhole leak in old thick copper cold pipe for no apparent reason. See middle of picture

 

[Harvest Fields]

Probably just a week/thin point in the copper.

 

[Sue66]

Probably just a week/thin point in the copper.

Ok thanks just seems wierd in such thick copper. I've had this one time before as well.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

could be corrosion cut it open and find out

 

[Burger]

Could it be uncleared flux?

 

[Stu-B]

I had the exact same thing Tuesday evening on open vent fill pipe, I bet it’s been in about 30 years too, very strange

 

[Sue66]

I had the exact same thing Tuesday evening on open vent fill pipe, I bet it’s been in about 30 years too, very strange

I find it extremely strange.

 

[Chuck]

Pinhole leak in old thick copper cold pipe for no apparent reason. See middle of picture

Lots of possible causes (Google it). It often said that copper pipe lasts 20-50 years.

If you are lucky, it'll be one defect in an otherwise good system. More realistically, it'll be the first of several in that run of pipe. If you are unlucky, pinholes will start appearing everywhere over the next few years and you'll need to re-pipe the whole house.

Personally, I'd replace the run at this point and have a critical look at the appearance of any other easily visible pipes. If the surface looks 'dimpled' that section is probably on its last legs.

If you do need to re-pipe, my advice would be to use branded high-quality tube such as Yorkshire, not some no-name stuff from China via ebay. (I suspect that plenty of people these days would repipe in plastic but I'm a dinasaur and I don't like the stuff.)

 

[Sue66]

Could it be uncleared flux?

There was nothing on the outside. I just don't get it.
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Struggling with this quote malarkey but Yes I see what you mean. So basically even really thick copper can just suddenly pin hole everywhere even though its super thick and this is just the first to appear.

 

[Harvest Fields]

What do you mean Quote malarkey?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Had one a week ish ago was just full of flux

 

[Sue66]

What do you mean Quote malarkey?

Sorry I was trying to quote what people are saying and it was problematic.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Sorry I was trying to quote what people are saying and it was problematic.

Ohhh. That make absolute sense now.
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Had one a week ish ago was just full of flux

Had 3 in the last 2 weeks. Had not had any in ages before that.

 

[Sue66]

Maybe plastic from now on then. First time I'm actually thinking this!

 

[firemant]

I don;t know w'y it happened.

but about 10 years ago, I had done a conventional to combi swap. Tidying up and getting paid. waked in the kitchen and water was squirting up through the kitchen floor. It was a quite magnificent fountain display, what you would see in a municipal pond / fountain. Had to replace about 9M of hot water pipe.

 

[Sue66]

I don;t know w'y it happened.

but about 10 years ago, I had done a conventional to combi swap. Tidying up and getting paid. waked in the kitchen and water was squirting up through the kitchen floor. It was a quite magnificent fountain display, what you would see in a municipal pond / fountain. Had to replace about 9M of hot water pipe.

Love the image reminds me of Vegas. The bellagio or whatever it's called. Sound bloody awful from our perspective though

 

[Brambles]

Sue,

It is more likely to be a result of the water quality that the pipe work quality. Bimetallic corrosion, high chlorine levels or high PH are all key contributory factors. Look for slight dimpling elsewhere on the system for an indication if this is the start of a longer term issue

 

[pycoed]

Are you on a private water supply? Ours is very acidic & 15mm copper won't last 5 years (which I found 37 years ago after completely re-plumbing our "new" house in copper I had to redo it all in plastic, since when all OK)
I sent pipe samples off to IMI etc etc & was told it was probably flux deposits which I found strange since it often occurred in vertical runs. When the water supply failed one day I went to the spring to investigate & found the brass tank connector on the collection tank had completely dezincified & could be crumbled with my fingers - THEN the penny dropped!

 

[Last Plumber]

Maybe plastic from now on then. First time I'm actually thinking this!

Don't be put off Copper by that. It is more than likely an impurity in the Copper. It might not happen again. Don't worry about it.
If it is corrosion caused by external influence, there is normally some kind of indication of that in my experience.
Plastic.........Ew no! Be a proper Plumber. He Ducks in readiness for the onslaught!

 

[Steve Lindsey]

If it was flux, soldering gas pipes would be a risky business.
I’m pretty sure it’s poor quality copper pipe.

 

[Sue66]

Thanks for all your helpful And interesting responses to my question everyone. The pipe was left with the customer so I don't have it now for further analysis. Hopefully it was a one off problem but judging by some responses this may not be the case!

 

[chris watkins]

http://www.fwr.org/copper.pdf

A good read for anyone who has this type of problem. Blue water & type 1 have given me problems in the past.

 

[centralheatking]

Pinhole leak in old thick copper cold pipe for no apparent reason. See middle of picture

Flowflex produce a really neat solder cap which fits over the leak.Turn water off, drain clip on with flux solder up simple
centralheatking

 

[NickH]

I was told by an older and wiser plumber that back in the 60's / 70's cheap copper pipe was being imported from "Africa", possibly Nigeria.
He reckoned it pinholed after a few years, particularly where bends had been pulled.

 

[centralheatking]

I was told by an older and wiser plumber that back in the 60's / 70's cheap copper pipe was being imported from "Africa", possibly Nigeria.
He reckoned it pinholed after a few years, particularly where bends had been pulled.

It was Rhodesian copper tube, very thin walled and fragile. It does pinhole and when you work on it often developes leaks eleswhere
came accross it in Bath years ago. centralheatking

 

[exedon2]

Not that uncommon see pinhole corrosion 2 or 3 times a year even had it on my own property!
Always understood it's part of manufacturing process copper tube is drawn out and has to be anealed every so many passes.
During this process very occasional a small piece is scale becomes embedded in internal tube wall . Tube is very thin at that point and hard water and as some stage small fountain!

 

[chris watkins]

Not that uncommon see pinhole corrosion 2 or 3 times a year even had it on my own property!
Always understood it's part of manufacturing process copper tube is drawn out and has to be anealed every so many passes.
During this process very occasional a small piece is scale becomes embedded in internal tube wall . Tube is very thin at that point and hard water and as some stage small fountain!

Not true I am afraid, at least it hasn't been for many a long year.
It is really worth the read, here is the link again http://www.fwr.org/copper.pdf
For the record it was type 2 (not 1) that I had a lot of problems with on high temp secondary HW returns.

 

[NickH]

Maybe I need to get out more but I found that very interesting. Lots that rings true and lots of things which I know a lot of us do are clearly not best practice.
Food for thought.

 

[chris watkins]

Maybe I need to get out more but I found that very interesting. Lots that rings true and lots of things which I know a lot of us do are clearly not best practice.
Food for thought.

I definitely need to get out more !!

 

[OffshoreGas]

Modern copper pipe from the big suppliers seems to have about 1/2 the wall thickness of the good old stuff you take out. Think we will be seeing a lot more of this stuff in years to come.

 

[Brambles]

I don’t think that is correct. It depends on wherther or not you are comparing current specification R250 or R290 copper tube with earlier specifications. I have just micrometered ( if that is a word ) pieces of 15mm copper from 1969, 1976 and a new piece of R290 from stock. The wall thicknesses are all within the band 0.7 to 1.1mm - admittedly only three samples, with the latter (1.1mm) being current material. R250 (half hard) would be 0.7mm plus or minus 10%

 

[OffshoreGas]

I don’t think that is correct. It depends on wherther or not you are comparing current specification R250 or R290 copper tube with earlier specifications. I have just micrometered ( if that is a word ) pieces of 15mm copper from 1969, 1976 and a new piece of R290 from stock. The wall thicknesses are all within the band 0.7 to 1.1mm - admittedly only three samples, with the latter (1.1mm) being current material. R250 (half hard) would be 0.7mm plus or minus 10%

It may be that its old imperial tube I've removed or that innner walls have an accumulation of contaminates but the old stuff seems to have significantly more heft than what I fit today. It could also be that I'm comparing with tube from the likes of Screwfix and not a merchant who may hold better quality products. Your analyasis is much more scientific than my entirely gut based approach so I could well be wrong.

 

[Chuck]

15mm is available in wall thicknesses that range from 0.5 mm to 1.5mm.
Retail stores tend to stock relatively thin-wall, types, typically 0.7mm or 0.8mm.

Specifying copper tube correctly is surprisingly complicated:

https://copperplumbing.org.uk/sites/default/files/content_attachments/en-standards_0.pdf

 

[OffshoreGas]

15mm is available in wall thicknesses that range from 0.5 mm to 1.5mm.
Retail stores tend to stock relatively thin-wall, types, typically 0.7mm or 0.8mm.

Specifying copper tube correctly is surprisingly complicated:

https://copperplumbing.org.uk/sites/default/files/content_attachments/en-standards_0.pdf

Thanks for the info, I've seen similar specs in industrial applications but never for domestic stuff. Interesting to know, I guess its the race to the bottom like everything else.

 

[Mdljk]

Shaun Cobbs has a point as excess flux can slowly rot a pipe from inside.

 

[OffshoreGas]

Shaun Cobbs has a point as excess flux can slowly rot a pipe from inside.

Could be one of 1000 factors or more likely a combination of them. Manufacturing defect, damage during installation, a small piece of dissimilar meter detached from a valve or fitting upstream, turbulent flow/cavitation, excessive flow due to to higher pump speed, the presence of flux etc. Hard to know what the actual cause is with something like this.

 

[centralheatking]

The best tube and fittings are medical standard , we used them years ago when we did medi gas.in hospitals ...oxy and vac
then we did some hydrogen in certified labs and nitrogen to cool down laser things ..awesome quality
centralheatking

 

[Stigster]

Shaun Cobbs has a point as excess flux can slowly rot a pipe from inside.

Along with overtightening compression fittings, people using excess flux really gets on my nerves like very few other things do, almost irrationally so it seems! There's just no need for it. It runs down the outside of the pipe, often past where you end up cleaning after soldering, it runs down inside the pipe and can cause "occlusion corrosion" and great blobs of it can get baked on inside the fittings again causing occlusion. I follow the WRAS guidelines and never flux the fitting either as it isn't helping anything. Even for those that do clean the pipe they were working on properly after soldering, I've seen people have excess flux drip all down over any pipework clipped in below which they usually fail to notice and clean.

STOP IT! ;-)

I do a demo in the workshop where I show just how little flux can actually be used, purely to make a point, not as good practice. I clean the pipe with cleaning strip enthusiastically, apply La-Co flux, wipe the flux away with a clean cloth and can still make the joint properly. In practice a little more flux than that is required but it does show the pointlessness of using tons of the stuff.

/rant

 

[Excite]

Yes...looks like excess flux

 

[Mdljk]

Could it be uncleared flux?

This gets my vote as a likely reason. Excess flux used on nearby fitting can settle onto interior surface of pipe and over the course of time the acid in the flux can corrode the pipe from the inside creating a pinhole.

 

[WC1]

I've often thought any tiny flake of steel or other metal coming off the tooling in the factory would do a good job of pinholing the tube after a few years.