i gave the boiler 'at risk'

[bluesky]

i went to an old house yesterday to do a landlord certificate, the boiler is an Ideal RS40S in a first floor bedroom cupboard, RS, natural draught, checked everything fine, it is old but still working well, the only thing is the flue terminal, the direct distance between the flue terminal and the window is only 280mm at the left downside of the window, when i stood by the window i felt strongly the smell from the boiler, checked the book the distance should be minimum 600mm, so i turned off the boiler and gave the guy a 'at risk' notice, he was not happy and argued that it had been there for 15 years, but i feel i have done the right thing,

also is there anyway to correct the flue terminal? can i buy the flue from Ideal and extend the flue to above roof level?

cheers in advance

 

[glenno1]

you could ring ideal and ask if they have a way to rectify this(e.g plume management kit)

 

[P J F PLUMBING]

you did the right thing def but this is an old bum boiler not much chance of getting a plume kit on a balance flue boiler !

 

[bluesky]

Hi P J Plumbing, thanks for your reply, does that mean replacing the boiler is the only option?

 

[SimonJohns]

You could have the window permanently closed. E.g changed for a non openable


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[diamondgas]

Hi bluesky ... We have no authority to turn anything off! It is our job to inform the responsible person of the risks and with their permission take the appropriate action! If they refuse and as long as you have informed them of the risk and they sign the safety certificate to say you have informed them then you have done all you can. Where Landlords are concerned then they also need to be informed of the potential dangers. As SimonJohns says the landlord could have a different type of window fitted. As long as you have it in writing that they use the appliance at their own risk then you've done your job!

 

[P J F PLUMBING]

diamondgas your right just leave a water or gas tight paper trail excuse the pun ! you advise and see what happens if he wants to keep the boiler then the window should be closed permanently solving the problem

 

[GrahamM]

I would have handled it slightly differently. If I suspected POC's entering a room, I would have carried out an ambient air assessment in center of room and if CO goes above the limits you would have your conformation to ID the appliance.
There is nothing can be done for an old balanced flue other than has been mentioned about replacing the window, but would probably be as well replacing the boiler.

 

[diamondgas]

I would have handled it slightly differently. If I suspected POC's entering a room, I would have carried out an ambient air assessment in center of room and if CO goes above the limits you would have your conformation to ID the appliance.
There is nothing can be done for an old balanced flue other than has been mentioned about replacing the window, but would probably be as well replacing the boiler.

I'll question what you say GrahamM if only because I've only carried out an ambient air assesment when attending carbon monoxide incidents that have been fatal/hospitalised AND with HSE/fire brigade attendance ... Would you do this at the customers expense? Soz mate but I think you're going overboard!!!

 

[SimonJohns]

I would have handled it slightly differently. If I suspected POC's entering a room, I would have carried out an ambient air assessment in center of room and if CO goes above the limits you would have your conformation to ID the appliance.
There is nothing can be done for an old balanced flue other than has been mentioned about replacing the window, but would probably be as well replacing the boiler.

But the at risk is the best option

It is AT RISK of pocs coming back in

I fully agree with AR and wouldn't risk my bum in prison on the result of a ambient co assesment


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yo1]

It would be worth checking if poc were entering the room in some situations were the terminal is less than the minimum clearances as they could be.

 

[diamondgas]

But the at risk is the best option

It is AT RISK of pocs coming back in

Totally agree mate .. At Risk it and then you've covered the cloth and can sleep at night without chasing fire engines! LOL

 

[Dannypipe]

I'm aware you can complete an ambient air assessment with my Kane 455, but don't know how to do it.

Anyone know how and care to enlighten me.

 

[metaldust9]

yep at risk it ,but you could also cover yourself buy fitting a co detector in the room near the window if the customer wouldnt let you switch it off as well as paperwork and put it on the paperwork ,i would have rung gas safe aswell just to double check

 

[diamondgas]

It would be worth checking if poc were entering the room in some situations were the terminal is less than the minimum clearances as they could be.

Don't disagree with you 'yo1' but then how far do you want to go? if your boilers kicking out 20ppm and then diluted B4 it enters the window ... what you hoping to prove? Wind direction is X or Y etc ,,, etc,,,, Just cover your own behind and advise the customer of the best action IMHO .... I emphasise the fact that we have NO POWER TO TURN OFF!!! EVER!!!! Even an ID requires the custards permission!

 

[diamondgas]

I'm aware you can complete an ambient air assessment with my Kane 455, but don't know how to do it.

Anyone know how and care to enlighten me.

When i was in attendance Dannypipe it was a cooker grille incident. so we lit the mother, suspended a probe in the middle of the room and monitored the increase in CO all windows and doors closed, including the one from the livingroom to the kitchen, at the time seemed strange as I'd assumed the custard would have had that door open to check out his bacon? Took us all day! Never the less it did prove that in a confined space with no ventilation and a very dodgy flame that a CO rise was noted ........ NOT fatal however, the guy died of a heart attack! ............

 

[GrahamM]

I'll question what you say GrahamM if only because I've only carried out an ambient air assesment when attending carbon monoxide incidents that have been fatal/hospitalised AND with HSE/fire brigade attendance ... Would you do this at the customers expense? Soz mate but I think you're going overboard!!!

For discussion sake we have a room with said boiler giving indications of POC's entering the room. How can you you be certain that CO is not at dangerous levels without assessing this as per BS7967-2. Do you just automatically 'AR'? How do you know the CO level is not at 10ppm and above in the room....an 'ID' situation.
"Protect life & property" 'AR'ing a situation that may in effect be 'ID' is plain negligent.

 

[diamondgas]

For discussion sake we have a room with said boiler giving indications of POC's entering the room. How can you you be certain that CO is not at dangerous levels without assessing this as per BS7967-2. Do you just automatically 'AR'? How do you know the CO level is not at 10ppm and above in the room....an 'ID' situation.
"Protect life & property" 'AR'ing a situation that may in effect be 'ID' is plain negligent.

I'd check the boiler POC first of all B4 entertaining what is entering the room. Then, for arguments sake I'd set up a monitor in the middle of the room with said "dodgy" window open and register on regular time intervals my readings! If they were in any way rising I'd be concerned and consider changing my first At Risk scenario to an ID! I have absolutely no idea without looking it up how long I'd be sitting on my backside and who the feck'd be paying for me doing so! I'd prefer to just give the bloke an AR notice with his signature to the effect that he is aware of the consequences! IMHO!

But for arguments sake I take your point at the unlikely occurrence!

Not getting at you GrahamM and not looking to put you down or contradicting what you say. You can carry out whatever you feel fit to make sure the appliance in question is safe to use! Practically though it is a time consuming and expensive undertaking to monitor POC ambient intrusion! Personally in this case I'd say it unnecessary given the age of the appliance yeh?

 

[SimonJohns]

What if.....

The ambient co comes back as 0

But in 6weeks time the leafs blockup the air intake on the balanced flue and restrict the air flow causing over gassing a raising the production of co and the pocs that are comin in to the room now contain somewhere in the region of 2000-3000 ppm

Then it's up to your carbon monoxide alarm to alert the family

I know what I'd deff do

Ambient co or not. Change the window or turn it off


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kirkgas]

I'm aware you can complete an ambient air assessment with my Kane 455, but don't know how to do it.

Anyone know how and care to enlighten me.

should have been covered in your CPA1 (if you have done it yet) and if not i would be very wary of doing ambient air test and recording results someone somewhere would/could question the integrity of the test and interpretation of results, but briefly (at this time of night) hold probe 2m above ground level and take reading at 1 minute intervals and assess what the readings are and make a decision on whether they are above safe levels, done with appliances all off then on to see if there is an ingress of CO from somewhere else (haha i did say briefly didnt I)

 

[kirkgas]

What if.....

The ambient co comes back as 0

But in 6weeks time the leafs blockup the air intake on the balanced flue and restrict the air flow causing over gassing a raising the production of co and the pocs that are comin in to the room now contain somewhere in the region of 2000-3000 ppm

Then it's up to your carbon monoxide alarm to alert the family

I know what I'd deff do

Ambient co or not. Change the window or turn it off


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

you have answered your own question with the bit i have put in bold, IF is the small word with the big significence of whether i say ID or AR, IF it could/might happen then it is AR, when checked and it IS recording high CO in the room then it is ID

 

[SimonJohns]

you have answered your own question with the bit i have put in bold, IF is the small word with the big significence of whether i say ID or AR, IF it could/might happen then it is AR, when checked and it IS recording high CO in the room then it is ID

Tottaly agree. It was just a point I wanted to make.

I would of tired my best to ID this app

I don't fancy owning a bar of soap on a rope


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mikegas]

should have been covered in your CPA1 (if you have done it yet) and if not i would be very wary of doing ambient air test and recording results someone somewhere would/could question the integrity of the test and interpretation of results, but briefly (at this time of night) hold probe 2m above ground level and take reading at 1 minute intervals and assess what the readings are and make a decision on whether they are above safe levels, done with appliances all off then on to see if there is an ingress of CO from somewhere else (haha i did say briefly didnt I)

Wasn't covered on my cpa1 course

 

[metaldust9]

doesnt anyone use the co detector on there analyser ,i use it all the time,and it gives me an idea had one the other day that the fire looked dodgy with soot on the coals so checked with co on analyser and was 13 ppm well above the allowed 10ppm so switched it off/capped off after telling the lady labed it and give cetificate

 

[SimonJohns]

doesnt anyone use the co detector on there analyser ,i use it all the time,and it gives me an idea had one the other day that the fire looked dodgy with soot on the coals so checked with co on analyser and was 13 ppm well above the allowed 10ppm so switched it off/capped off after telling the lady labed it and give cetificate

I'd if switched it off for signs of spillage and done a flue flow and spillage




---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[diamondgas]

should have been covered in your CPA1 (if you have done it yet) and if not i would be very wary of doing ambient air test and recording results someone somewhere would/could question the integrity of the test and interpretation of results, but briefly (at this time of night) hold probe 2m above ground level and take reading at 1 minute intervals and assess what the readings are and make a decision on whether they are above safe levels, done with appliances all off then on to see if there is an ingress of CO from somewhere else (haha i did say briefly didnt I)

Thak you for the briefness 'kirkgas' .. for those. my self included, who do not come across that many incidence where the need to check for CO is neccessary, your imput is appreciated

I worry that newbies to this proffession are to scared to experience the reality of what exists out there and live to much to the rules dictaded by the bodies that be.........!

 

[glenno1]

if in doubt get stickers out