New home woes with heating

[Sg1973]

Hi all

Looking for some advice if possible. Whilst it's too late to tell me not to buy a new house - not something I'm likely to ever do again in a hurry - I suspect the builder has gone for cheap, or low cost kit. The house has EPC B, concrete floors downstairs (supposedly insulated underneath), cavity wall insulation, brick construction, double glazing (upvc). It's a 4 bed detached with a conventional boiler and hot water cylinder and separate thermostats and timers for upstairs and downstairs.

Potterton promax 12 and pretty small radiators have been installed. The front lounge, 5x3x2.46m, has a 1.7x1.4m window and two external walls. The radiator is 800x600mm single, so about 2800BTU. The thermostat in the hallway struggles to get above 19 (and stays below 18 unless the heating has been on for hours) and the lounge reached 21 degrees after the heating had been on for over 6 hours. When I was in the lounge with my daughter yesterday, the heating had only been on for an hour and we had to sit by the radiator to feel any warmth. Same story in the master bedroom.

The boiler thermostat is set to max as are all the radiators (thermostatic valves), so I'm worried that there's no capacity to heat the house to a sensible temperature without having it on all the time, which seems to defeat the object of an efficient home.

They claim they used a specialist heating company but of course they might have been given a brief to save as much money as possible. It's unfortunate but it's a detail I wouldn't have expected to need to go into prior to completion. From what I've read, it's usual to be over cautious when installing a system. Right now, the house feels cool within the first 2-3 hours of the heating being on.

So, are there any requirements or minimum standards to be followed? Is there any company I could use to mount a challenge to the builder? Or am I screwed?

Clearly, installing larger radiators might take the boiler beyond its limit so it's not a cheap proposition to change things myself.

Thanks in advance.

Sean

 

[ShaunCorbs]

if they claim to have used a spec heating firm ask to see there heat loss and rad sizing calcs

and boiler sounds too small

how many rads in the house?

and if your unsure post the room sizes up and window sizes

 

[Unregistered]

Thanks

Downstairs there's a radiator in the 5m x 3m lounge, small study 2.6 x 2m, downstairs cloaks 1.2 x 2m, hallway and two in the open plan kitchen/lounge/diner that's 4.3 x 4.1m max, and one in the utility room 1.5 x 1.7m. The kitchen area is where the only double radiator in the house exists. Upstairs landing, 4 bedrooms and 2 heated towel rails. So guess that's 12 radiators and 2 towel rails.

All bedroom windows are 1.3 x 1 m. Study window is 1.3 x 1.4m. Kitchen window also 1.3 x 1m and the rear lounge has bifold doors around 2.1 x 2.1m.

Rest assured, once I'm through the Christmas period, I'll be asking to see their calcs. If they provide them, what options would I have then?

 

[chris watkins]

Hi Sean
First thing is to request a copy of the heat loss calculations & rad sizing from the builder/main contractor. (is this house part of a development or a one off new house ?)

Hopefully the system should have been designed to BS EN 128228 :2003 & BS EN 12831 :2003

It is possible to employ an expert designer either a Heating engineer or a mechanical / heating consultant you can provide a report on the installed system to mount a claim if it is not up to standard.
Do you have NHBC warranty or hold any retention ?

 

[newcastle phill]

If it is a new build you should seek an independent report from a building surveyor and approch the builder with the findings

 

[ShaunCorbs]

please log back in and is there a rad on the hallway and dont think you listed your bed room sizes

 

[jtsplumbing]

System sounds to small for house, 4 bed house you must have at least 10 radiators average 1.5Kw per rad = 15Kw + hot water min 18 Kw boiler

 

[stevetheplumber]

i wouldnt worry about their calcs just get a surveyer /consultant to do a heat loss calc for you so you can see if your existing system is up to standard then take it from there
i does sound small for the size of the property i would think a 24k boiler would be more likely
where abouts are you their may be someone here willing to take this on

 

[Unregistered]

Thanks all. Didn't see the notifications for updated posts but much appreciated to get so many responses on Christmas Day!!

Radiator (small obviously) in hallway. Sorry for not listing bedroom sizes. Here they are:

Master 4.7 x 3.8m max
2 4.6 x 3.6m max
3 3.6 x 2.9m
4 3.5 x 2m
bathroom 2.5 x 2.1m
en suite 1.8 x 2m

I can post radiator sizes later but with family at present.

I'm in Leeds (the Yorkshire version) so open to offers on here if someone is interested.

It doesn't have NHBC but instead has Premier guarantee.

To put this into context I am also really unhappy with the finish of the woodwork (not to mention they didn't get the kitchen floor level and even failed on their first attempt to fix it) and intend to be talking to the solicitor who handled the purchase early in the new year. The builder's website suggests a very high spec and quality craftsmanship but I've seen none of that. They are a small builder who generally build about 12 houses on small developments (like mine).

I've produced a snagging spreadsheet that had close to 150 points and they've so far resolved less than 20 of them. I've lost the will, quite frankly, so also considering hiring a professional snagging firm to see if there are more major defects. Any advice on this also welcome but understandably this is a plumbing and heating forum so no need to respond to this too.

Thanks again. And merry Christmas.

Sean

 

[Sg1973]

Looks like I wasn't logged in when I posted that last message. Oops.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

right now these are partly from you and estimated by me but they should be close enough, but without seeing/ measuring for my self just use these as a starting point

Lounge: 5m x 3m x 2.5m
Window: 1.8m x 1.3 m (guess)
2 Outside walls (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 1580w
K1: 1800 x 600mm
K2: 100 x 600mm


Study: 2.6m x 2m x 2.5m
Window: 1.4m x 1.3 m
1 Outside Wall (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 556w
K1: 600 x 600mm
K2: 400 x 600mm


Downstairs Cloaks: 1.2m x 2m x 2.5m
1 Outside Wall (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 594w
Towel Rad: 1400 x 500mm

Kitchen/diner: 4.3m x 4.1m x 2.5m
Window: 1.3m x 1 m
Door: 2.1m x 2.1 m
2 Outside Walls (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 1034w
K1: 1200 x 600mm
K2: 800 x 600mm


Utility Room: 1.5m x 1.7m x 2.5m
Window: 1.m x 1 m
1 Outside Wall (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 239w
K1: 450 x 450mm


Bedroom One: 4.7m x 3.8m x 2.5m
Window: 1.3m x 1 m
2 Outside walls (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 994w
K1: 1200 x 600mm
K2: 600 x 600mm


En Suite: 1.8m x 2m x 2.5m
Window: 0.8m x 1 m
0 Outside wall (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 465w
Towel Rad: 1200 x 500mm


Bedroom Two: 4.6m x 3.6m x 2.5m
Window: 1.3m x 1 m
2 Outside walls (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 933w
K1: 1200 x 600
K2: 600 x 600


Bedroom Three: 3.6m x 2.9m x 2.5m
Window: 1.3m x 1 m
2 Outside walls (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 644w
K1: 800 x 600mm
K2: 450 x 600


Bedroom Four: 3.5m x 2m x 2.5m
Window: 1.3m x 1 m
2 Outside walls (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 481w
K1: 600 x 600mm
K2: 450 x 600mm


Bathroom: 2.5m x 2.1m x 2.5m
Window: 1.2m x 1 m (guess)
1 Outside wall (guess)

Total Room Heat Loss: 593w
Towel Rad: 1600 x 500mm

 

[Sharp Point]

Good evening,

how new is the house, when was it completed? As new build houses that have been built very quickly and still saturated with 1000's of litres of water, take a while to heat and lose there heat quite rapidly until the thermal mass starts drying and holding the heat.... Bit like a sponge!
I would get the heating checked by a independent heating engineer first, to measure temperature differentials at rads, check system is balanced and all valves are open, bypass's set. You may have a large cylinder that takes all heat if heating is on too!! ( water takes the path of least resistance) these are basic checks. A 12 kW boiler would roughly be suffice if heating( radiators) was on alone.

My two penneth.....

 

[Sg1973]

Hi

Thanks again. I did wonder about the newness. I moved in a couple of weeks ago so plastering will be a month or two old only. I guess it's plausible although there were 2 rads for the lounge on the original drawings but pre completion I noticed the larger rad was missing. They claimed that revised thermal calcs showed that one rad was sufficient (but said that they would be obliged to give me both as it was what was signed for). I had no reason to doubt their calcs at that point but after living there for a week I asked if they could just fit the larger rad in place of the smaller one. I'd probably get them to swap that for one of the other smaller ones. They haven't come back to me yet but I do wonder if a larger rad will take the system beyond the capabilities of the boiler.

Forgive my cynicism but they haven't covered themselves in glory so far and my gut feel tells me they have looked to cut costs in many areas. It could be legit but I'd feel happier getting a second opinion.

Forgive my ignorance but what is K1 and K2?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Hi

Thanks again. I did wonder about the newness. I moved in a couple of weeks ago so plastering will be a month or two old only. I guess it's plausible although there were 2 rads for the lounge on the original drawings but pre completion I noticed the larger rad was missing. They claimed that revised thermal calcs showed that one rad was sufficient (but said that they would be obliged to give me both as it was what was signed for). I had no reason to doubt their calcs at that point but after living there for a week I asked if they could just fit the larger rad in place of the smaller one. I'd probably get them to swap that for one of the other smaller ones. They haven't come back to me yet but I do wonder if a larger rad will take the system beyond the capabilities of the boiler.

Forgive my cynicism but they haven't covered themselves in glory so far and my gut feel tells me they have looked to cut costs in many areas. It could be legit but I'd feel happier getting a second opinion.

Forgive my ignorance but what is K1 and K2?

k1 single panel with single fins
k2 double panel with dual fins

 

[Geyser]

Why are some plumbers fitting small rads still? not much more for exact size or larger which works better with condensing boiler at lower temp. Large building companies i expect saving pounds on install and costing homeowner thousands in the end.

 

[Sg1973]

My thoughts exactly. I'll post the rad sizes tomorrow when I get back home. They look like they're meant for a doll's house. (Slight exaggeration).

 

[Sg1973]

Master 700x450
Bed 2 900x450
Bed 3 600x450
Bed 4 600x450
Landing 400x600
Bathroom 1200x600
En suite 1200x500
Cloaks 400x400
Hall 500x600
Kitchen x2 k2 600x600 k1 700x600
Lounge 800x600
Study 600x500
Utility 400x600

 

[Sg1973]

All K1 aside from one in the kitchen.

 

[PhoenixServices]

They are tiny. Looks like they just threw in whatever was cheapest/lying around.
I'm doing a refurb at minute and they are all 1200x600 p+ or 1400 and that's a mid 3 bed terrace.
All worked out to correct heat losses.
Gives you an idea of the sort of size to expect usually.

 

[Sg1973]

Thanks. I've asked them to provide calcs so that I can verify them. They claim they use the same spec in all their builds and it's adequate and that they've not cut corners.

If anyone is based in the Leeds area and fancies inspecting it and preparing a suitable report, please get in touch.

Thanks

Sean

 

[PhoenixServices]

Sean post a request in this part of the forum.
[DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/im-looking-plumber-gas-engineer/"]I'm looking for a Plumber or Gas Engineer[/DLMURL]
More likely to get seen.

 

[rpm]

Don`t do heating but what strikes me is that the radiator in bed 2 is larger than the master bedroom and the largest radiators are in bathrooms?

 

[Sg1973]

The upstairs bathrooms are only towel rails so suspect the output is lower than conventional radiators. Also, bed 2 is larger than the master as it doesn't have the en suite.

 

[rpm]

My error, haven`t read the entire thread tbh.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The upstairs bathrooms are only towel rails so suspect the output is lower than conventional radiators. Also, bed 2 is larger than the master as it doesn't have the en suite.

Doesn't matter as the rooms as the same size (nearly)

Master 4.7 x 3.8
Bed two 4.6 x 3.6

 

[stevetheplumber]

before getting someone in to size it you need to find out from the builder the u value for the type of construction theyve built with

 

[AWheating]

if the building has been build with very good u values then the rads many well only need to be very small.

Theres design and then theres building to said design. if you watched the recent programme on tv about new builds you would have seen a top 3 builders (size wise) house which cost 3/4 of a million have around 75% of its insulation missing.

 

[Sg1973]

Thanks. Given the problems I'm having in general it wouldn't surprise me at all that corners have been cut. So agree that it might have been designed to have a decent U value but not necessarily built to that design. The question is how I go about proving it...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks. Given the problems I'm having in general it wouldn't surprise me at all that corners have been cut. So agree that it might have been designed to have a decent U value but not necessarily built to that design. The question is how I go about proving it...

thermal imaging cam will be able to tell

home survey would be best

 

[clarky101]

If no joy from the house builder get the NHBC involved....you'll have a warranty on the house.....

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If no joy from the house builder get the NHBC involved....you'll have a warranty on the house.....

"It doesn't have NHBC but instead has Premier guarantee."

 

[Sg1973]

It's a good point nonetheless, to see if build quality in general is something they can assist with.

According to the builder, someone from premier guarantee will have assessed the work on the house.

Might give them a call.

 

[clarky101]

"It doesn't have NHBC but instead has Premier guarantee."

Missed that bit ....sorry...

 

[zzzjim]

Did like bit that house may be Drying out for Xmas , while many folk are trying the opposite.
Have a Merry Xmas .
( de-humidifier if badly plastered ?)

 

[Sg1973]

Meeting the builder's customer care team today. Will see what they say about everything.

 

[stevetheplumber]

last new builds i did from scratch i saw nhbc twice in 4 months

 

[Sg1973]

If you don't mind me asking, what were the issues?

 

[Sg1973]

I have now measured each room as accurately as I can and I've also done my own calcs for the cubic metres in each room in case this is useful. I also posted in the "looking for plumber" section to see if anyone would like to assist.

I attach photos of my internal drawings for reference and hope they're clear enough.




Please note that the internal doors aren't solid. External doors are solid with half glazed to the rear and three small rectangular glazed sections to the front (maybe 7"x5").

Flooring is concrete on soil, which they insulated before laying the concrete. Walls are brick with insulated cavity. Roof space has very thick insulation. Roof is tiled.

I'm in Pudsey just off Lumby Lane (LS28), so not particular exposed or high up at all.

My cubic metre calcs give the following. I have also listed for completness the current radiator sizes:

Ground floor

Hallway 13.9m3 rad size 500x600
Lounge 34.9m3 rad size 800x600
Study 13m3 rad size 600x500
W/C 5.9m3 rad size 400x400
Kitchen/dining/lounge at rear 60m3 rad sizes 600x600 K2 + 700x600 K1

Upstairs
Landing 8.9m3 rad size 400x600
Bathroom 12m3 rad size 1200x600 rail
Bed 1 26.4m3 rad size 700x450
Ensuite 8.4m3 rad size 1200x500 rail
Bed 2 35.3 m3 rad size 900x450
Bed 3 22.2m3 rad size 600x450
Bed 4 16.3m3 rad size 600x450

I have been informed that senior management and a heating engineer will be visiting my house in the near future, so it sounds like they are taking things a bit more seriously now although getting an independent view of things would be helpful.

I also spoke with my neighbour who has the same spec of house and she's said that her front lounge doesn't get very warm either.

Sean

 

[newcastle phill]

Have you got an independant surveyor out yet.
Instead of asking dozens of anon faceless people who could have any level of knowledge or lack of giving an opinion - why dont you do the obvious thing ?

 

[Sg1973]

Thanks Phill. I have done what was recommended on here, to post on the plumber required section to see if anyone is interested in this. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that a professional might respond to offer their services.

I could of course hire an independent surveyor, although finding a reputable one is why I posted on here in the first place, to see if anyone has any recommendations etc (which then led to my post in the other section).

If you've any recommendations in the Leeds area, feel free to share them with me.

 

[newcastle phill]

The only problem you face if you intend to challenge their work is ultimately this is what you will need - a professional report from a building services expert.
If you disclose your source of expertise is a general plumbing forum it wont further your cause.

 

[Sg1973]

I guess the feedback on here so far suggests it is inadequate but I wouldn't use a general forum response to go head to head with the builder. I will seek a professional and am. If I can't achieve that via a professional on this forum, then I will need to go elsewhere.

 

[Sg1973]

Just thought I'd post the latest here. The heating/plumbing engineer I hired came to view my house yesterday. He confirmed all my suspicions. The house just doesn't get warm. He said the radiators were the smallest he'd seen on a new build. I'll get a survey report from him to take to the builders, and I suspect court thereafter. He is recommending doubling the radiator, and hence, boiler size.

Got some good advice from citizens advice too on the steps to follow.

Will come back to let you all know how it goes.

 

[stevetheplumber]

Just thought I'd post the latest here. The heating/plumbing engineer I hired came to view my house yesterday. He confirmed all my suspicions. The house just doesn't get warm. He said the radiators were the smallest he'd seen on a new build. I'll get a survey report from him to take to the builders, and I suspect court thereafter. He is recommending doubling the radiator, and hence, boiler size.


Got some good advice from citizens advice too on the steps to follow.

Will come back to let you all know how it goes.

thanks for the update we would appreciate hearing the outcome of this

 

[Sg1973]

So after posting a pre (court) action letter yesterday, the builder contacted me this afternoon. He'd been on the phone to Myson's technical director (apparently) regarding the heat loss calcs and system design they were employed to do. Myson stand by their calcs but are coming to my house to see what's not working with their own eyes.

However, I checked their website and there's something odd. You can use an online tool of theirs to give you radiator recommendations. In other words, an online heat loss calculator. After trying many others online, my 5x3x2.5m room with two external walls and a 2.2m2 window, I usually get around 5000BTU as the heat loss. Myson's calcs show a heat loss of 785 watts or 942 after allowing for a heat up factor. That's about 3200 BTU.

Is this because a lot of heat loss calculators don't allow for current building standards?

If anyone can point me in the direction of the best site for heat loss calcs, I'd appreciate it. If necessary I could always hire someone to do the calcs for me.

Cheers

Sean

 

[newcastle phill]

If its a new build fabric heat loss is a lot less than older houses for sure.

 

[chris watkins]

You can't beat full manual calculations although it takes a bit of time IMHO.

Any fabric heatloss calc whether manual or on a computer must include the selection of all the fabric parts i.e. walls, floor, ceiling, windows & doors construction including the levels of insulation.
They also need to take account of what is on the other side temperature wise & then there is the heat lost through ventilation which varies depending on chimneys & extractor fans etc.

Most freebies just give a ruff & ready idea only for replacement with results that can vary greatly.

Whoever does them will need to establish the construction make-up of the house & use this in the calculations to establish the design loading there are still some variable that they could come up with such as the designed outside temperature (-1 or -3deg C for most parts of the counter), the location exposure & heat up allowance, as you mentioned etc.

All of this is set out in a very good book that a lot of the better engineers refer to called the "Domestic Heating Design Guide", not sure what the latest edition is, mine is 2013, but maybe worth the £28 or so cost.

 

[Sg1973]

So. Myson's technical director came today with someone from the builder. They absolutely stood behind their calcs and system. However, it transpired that there was a weather compensator fitted, limiting the central heating water temp to less than 60 degrees. They agreed to remove this (a quick job) and it has unleashed the full power. 80 degrees showing now on the boiler and the house is considerably warmer. Looks like they might have to remove them from all houses on the estate as it's not just me complaining.

Any other experience of weather compensators? Is this normal??

 

[newcastle phill]

Good result

 

[chris watkins]

So. Myson's technical director came today with someone from the builder. They absolutely stood behind their calcs and system. However, it transpired that there was a weather compensator fitted, limiting the central heating water temp to less than 60 degrees. They agreed to remove this (a quick job) and it has unleashed the full power. 80 degrees showing now on the boiler and the house is considerably warmer. Looks like they might have to remove them from all houses on the estate as it's not just me complaining.

Any other experience of weather compensators? Is this normal??

Weather Compensation is very good at saving you money in fuel cost and running your boiler at 80C is not the most efficient.

Some one has still mucked up the designs I feel, least ways it would suggest it was neither commissioned nor handed overt you correctly.

Was there a users guide that you did not read?