Time on Jobs

[island fling]

Evening lads/lassies

I'm not sure if this is allowed in here......If not please delete.

I am running a small company - 5 lads (3 tradesmen, 1 apprentice, 1 labourer) & 1 office lady for admin ect.

I keep finding myself getting frustrated at the times the tradesmen are taking to jobs, I know not everyone will put in what you do as a self emplyed person, I fully understand that. I got p*ssed off at 2 tradesmen before this & we have agreed to go our own ways, I don't want to lose another 3 for the same reasons.
1 tradesman is a month out of his time, another 4 years & the other 35 years & I myself am 8 years.

Do you lads have anyway of estimating jobs, how long a job should take.

For example -
Job 1 - New heating system with 7 rads, new boiler & new unvented system on ground floor with good space - I allowed the lads (1 tradesman & apprentice with labourer doing the oil tank & boiler base) 1 full week - 5 days/45 hrs

Job 2 - Swap 10 sets of TRVs & lock-shields on 20yr old system all same pipe centres ect - I allowed a day but expected them to be done in a half day for 2 lads.

Job 3 - 2 x bathrooms 2nd fix - I allowed them the week.

None of these jobs have been met by the times I expected, am I being unrealistic? I know I could do all the jobs on time myself hence why i am asking them to. I find myself biting my tongue every other day.

Is there a guide I can follow, as 75% of our work is day/hour rate we make money & price work we make money but not as much as I would like.

The thing that is getting me is myself & a labourer were making 50k+ profit a year but doing 80hr weeks, I am now planning a family so looking to do half that so spent the past 2 years employing to see how it went & now we are making 20k profit although im doing now 40-50 hr weeks alot of admin/quoting/pricing/checking up ect I'm just not seeing a decent return for the extra staff. Although I don't see going on my own as an option as we do around 40 callouts (evening & weeks) a month, I also don't want to turn them away as they are all with established customer, some domestic & some commercial.

I know it might sound spoilt of me as I sound like I want to work less & earn more, I'm honestly not that kind of person.
I wanted to run a small business where I could be proud of what I have achieved while turning good lads home with a good wage & moral & in return I could graft hard for the day but get to spend good time with my future family.

I feel I might be about to get a reality check where you lads that 'have been here done that got the t-shirt & are now back on your own' come in, If that is what it is then I can accept it & move on, or maybe yous can offer me some advice on how to improve my team.

Sorry for the rant but I need a bit of guidance weather its on some spreadsheet i can obtain for timings or a more experienced head tell me to leave it to the big guns.

Regards,
island fling

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Job 1 I would estimate 1.5-2 weeks for your eg 1 and 1 depending on building if you want it done faster put more into it eg 3 full and 1 apprentice and 1 labourer

Job 2 2 days if it’s open vent allowing for problems

Job 3 depends what we’re talking spec wise could easily end up taking a week to do one

 

[island fling]

Job 1 I would estimate 1.5-2 weeks for your eg 1 and 1 depending on building if you want it done faster put more into it eg 3 full and 1 apprentice and 1 labourer

Job 2 2 days if it’s open vent allowing for problems

Job 3 depends what we’re talking spec wise could easily end up taking a week to do one

Thanks Shaun, That makes me feel better - I am maybe pushing the lads too hard. Although i've not really pushed them i've just asked for progress each evening or popped across to look at the jobs.
I am used to constantly working under a lot of pressure as I worked for a one man band where myself & my tradesman did around 20 new builds a year plus 5ish heating system & bathrooms so it was head down arse up all the time I guess, I went SE with the same mentality. For instance this week myself & the labourer have installed 3 new cylinders, toilet room & full heating system, although we have been working hard it feels good to go home tired like we have worked for our money.

I feel much better & will allow more time in future.

Do you know of anywhere I can get a guide or just start to allow 100% more & I should be okay.....As I say we make money at the minute but just not how it was before & I expected to make similar with a larger setup.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks Shaun, That makes me feel better - I am maybe pushing the lads too hard. Although i've not really pushed them i've just asked for progress each evening or popped across to look at the jobs.
I am used to constantly working under a lot of pressure as I worked for a one man band where myself & my tradesman did around 20 new builds a year plus 5ish heating system & bathrooms so it was head down arse up all the time I guess, I went SE with the same mentality. For instance this week myself & the labourer have installed 3 new cylinders, toilet room & full heating system, although we have been working hard it feels good to go home tired like we have worked for our money.

I feel much better & will allow more time in future.

Do you know of anywhere I can get a guide or just start to allow 100% more & I should be okay...As I say we make money at the minute but just not how it was before & I expected to make similar with a larger setup.

The thing is there employed there not going to have the same speed as let’s say if they were on there own etc and you will find you burn out quicker

Don’t want to sound mean so take this with a pinch of salt

Most people can install/slap in a push fit heating system in a day or two which I’m sure you’ve seen onsite etc

So the thing you have to stress is quality over quantity

Don’t think you will find a cheat sheet but it will come with experience

I’ve been a full day lifting floor boards in the past for a full ch sys because the builders glued them down

That’s a busy week

New build work second fixing ?

If so will give you an idea

Cylinder would allow 2 -3 days to do 3 of them

Toilet room would allow half a day

And second fixing heating around 3-5 days depending on rads
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@Millsy 82 fair enough

Any insight from your perspective?

 

[Millsy 82]

With an apprentice I used to get 2 5 days to disconnect warm air unit and install combi and a 7 rad system but he was a good apprentice. it doesnt take an extra 2.5 days to install a cylinder and connect up an oil tank.

As an estimate without seeing the job I would estimate 6 days for me personally to do the job 1

Job 2 1 hour to drain system 30 minutes per upstairs rads and 45 per downstairs rads and 2 hours to fill.

2x bathrooms depends on what you call second fix? If it is install a bath basin toilet go back after tiler and install shower screen 2 days for me I'd allow 3

I've worked for a fair few companies and this seemed to be the going thing. But it all depends on how much your paying them and where in the country you are. If you live near me it seems they take the mick something chronic what I was doing in 3 days would take others 5 days and I ended up working late on a friday night to get the job sorted.

If your paying 25k a year expect it to take forever if your paying 32+ expect what bg expect as that is what they pay around me.
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@Millsy 82 fair enough

Any insight from your perspective?
[/QUOTE]

Your quoting self employed times allowing plenty of time and allowing for other times of no work etc. If you employ people and pay them a proper wage not 25-30k then expect what the big companies expect.

There is a large difference between being a sole trader and a business and seeing what some people are like when working with them they take the mick massively only for others (this mug here) to have to pick up the slack but then that's why companies have always tried to keep me.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

With an apprentice I used to get 2 5 days to disconnect warm air unit and install combi and a 7 rad system but he was a good apprentice. it doesnt take an extra 2.5 days to install a cylinder and connect up an oil tank.

As an estimate without seeing the job I would estimate 6 days for me personally to do the job 1

Job 2 1 hour to drain system 30 minutes per upstairs rads and 45 per downstairs rads and 2 hours to fill.

2x bathrooms depends on what you call second fix? If it is install a bath basin toilet go back after tiler and install shower screen 2 days for me I'd allow 3

I've worked for a fair few companies and this seemed to be the going thing. But it all depends on how much your paying them and where in the country you are. If you live near me it seems they take the mick something chronic what I was doing in 3 days would take others 5 days and I ended up working late on a friday night to get the job sorted.

If your paying 25k a year expect it to take forever if your paying 32+ expect what bg expect as that is what they pay around me.

Fair enough you must of been shifting to do it all in copper

As for the cylinder etc those 2.5 days

New 22mm feed from the stop tap
Balanced cold to the bathrooms
Discharge internally as you can’t high level anymore
Lagging
Just second fixing the cylinder will take 3/4 - 1 day

I tip my hat to you Millsy your fast

 

[island fling]

The thing is there employed there not going to have the same speed as let’s say if they were on there own etc and you will find you burn out quicker

Don’t want to sound mean so take this with a pinch of salt

Most people can install/slap in a push fit heating system in a day or two which I’m sure you’ve seen onsite etc

So the thing you have to stress is quality over quantity

Don’t think you will find a cheat sheet but it will come with experience

I’ve been a full day lifting floor boards in the past for a full ch sys because the builders glued them down

That’s a busy week

New build work second fixing ?

If so will give you an idea

Cylinder would allow 2 -3 days to do 3 of them

Toilet room would allow half a day

And second fixing heating around 3-5 days depending on rads
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@Millsy 82 fair enough

Any insight from your perspective?

I hear what your saying there Shaun.

We always use copper & either solder or press, usually always press now due to hot works & preference. Seen far too many poor standard of jobs only lasting a fraction of the time they should due to plastic pipe, lack of clips & customers having to spend a fortune when we do the 1st service after another 'heating engineer' has installed a heating system & not connected condensate, incorrect expansion vessel, no insulation & lack of clips.
One thing I can say is im happy with the standard of work at all times otherwise I wouldn't be biting my tongue.

I'm pretty comfortable with pricing (I think) & done dozens & dozens of new builds so especially with 1st & 2nd fix, but thanks for the offer. Our price for them is usually about 20% higher than most but we still seem to get them.

I guess every job is different & to ask employees to busy a gut all day everyday is unrealistic.
I think what got me before posting was that our turnover is only up by 50% & profit has more than halved since I was working myself with a labourer, although my quality of life is up by 1000%
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With an apprentice I used to get 2 5 days to disconnect warm air unit and install combi and a 7 rad system but he was a good apprentice. it doesnt take an extra 2.5 days to install a cylinder and connect up an oil tank.

As an estimate without seeing the job I would estimate 6 days for me personally to do the job 1

Job 2 1 hour to drain system 30 minutes per upstairs rads and 45 per downstairs rads and 2 hours to fill.

2x bathrooms depends on what you call second fix? If it is install a bath basin toilet go back after tiler and install shower screen 2 days for me I'd allow 3

I've worked for a fair few companies and this seemed to be the going thing. But it all depends on how much your paying them and where in the country you are. If you live near me it seems they take the mick something chronic what I was doing in 3 days would take others 5 days and I ended up working late on a friday night to get the job sorted.

If your paying 25k a year expect it to take forever if your paying 32+ expect what bg expect as that is what they pay around me.
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@Millsy 82 fair enough

Any insight from your perspective?

Your quoting self employed times allowing plenty of time and allowing for other times of no work etc. If you employ people and pay them a proper wage not 25-30k then expect what the big companies expect.

There is a large difference between being a sole trader and a business and seeing what some people are like when working with them they take the mick massively only for others (this mug here) to have to pick up the slack but then that's why companies have always tried to keep me.
[/QUOTE]
We are paying between 32k - 35k, a van home to the door (which isn't needed as it can be left in the yard) which is about 50 miles a day for each van & i am getting exactly as you say, picking up the slack on a friday - mains off, hot water, heating system drained & new cylinder partially plumbed, I get told at 7pm on a friday when i'm on my way home after a long day, then I have to go round to an unhappy customer to finish off. That is what is getting me I think, It's not all the time, but often enough. I feel they have me by the balls though as we have work booked in for a year ahead plus callout on a regular basis.
When I was employed I worked my arse off, 12hr days 6 days a week if needed & I was happy doing it, not to luck the boss's arse but to prove I was worth my salt, to watch the job offers come in & be happy to stay (until my boss retired) to thank the man that helped me cut my teeth in an industry I love.

 

[king of pipes]

I have be doing this for a lot of years and have seen it all , employing staff has always been a problem they all start off will good intentions and work hard, it's just human nature to have a easy day now and then, you cannot work flat out every day you just burn out, call outs always take longer than you think extra time is needed for traveling between jobs , parking , collecting parts and materials clearing up completing certificates , the only way to get more out of your employees is put em on a price there's no way they will work as hard or quick on a hourly rate, don't price work on how quick you can fit it look back at their efforts hours taken on previous jobs and maybe allow more time you may lose a few jobs but will make more on the jobs you win. Best of luck . Kop

 

[Gasmk1]

cant comment on 1 and 3 but job 2 drain down could take up to 2 hours more if problems, allow 1 hour per rad if there is need for cutting olives and slight alterations then refill which could take 3 to 3 hours the check operation and check for leaks so i would say 1 1/2 days to be sure not really quicker till the valve stage of the job and refilling when both guys can do work.

 

[Millsy 82]

Shaun I am just going on what I have been given in the past by pretty much every company I've worked for. I didnt think I was fast and when I went for my last job o said to the boss I'm not the quickest but turned out I was the quickest by a long way.

I've always done copper very rarely used plastic as I dont think fitting plastic in an existing home is much quicker fitted properly.

Island you are paying british gas prices what do british gas expect from there employees. As kop has said you cant work them flat out all the time but if they are getting paid well I would expect them to work hard 90% of the time.

Personally I would pay bonuses for jobs completed on time and with no call backs. If you put people on price they chuck things in to get to the next job.

Gasmk1 3 hours to fill a system? Wheres that Buckingham palace? 😀 the last time I had a system take over an hour to fill was about 5 years ago in the end I repiped the cold feed and vent then it filled within 20 minutes.

 

[Aire]

Not going to comment on the time scale of things as we all know an hour's work can take 3 and a days work can be done half, just depends if you encounter any problems or not.

I will say though that you cant expect them to break a sweat every hour of the day like you, it's your business so your naturally going to be committed to the firm more than they are. Have you actually sat down with them and had a chat about your concerns? Sometimes biting your tongue isn't the best way to go, a good boss is firm but fair. My last boss who trained me was firm (won't comment on the fairness bit) and if I'd have left a customer with no water on overnight he'd have gone through the roof, so you getting a phone call at 7pm on a Friday with your guys leaving a customer with no water for the weekend is not acceptable. If you run round after them picking up the slack and don't say anything, they will let you. Toughen up and be their boss, not their friend.

 

[Millsy 82]

Toughen up and be their boss, not their friend.

That's the best bit of advice. The last company I worked for he wanted to be everybody's best friend and people just took the mick.

 

[Aire]

Toughen up and be their boss, not their friend.

That's the best bit of advice. The last company I worked for he wanted to be everybody's best friend and people just took the mick.

Yep, we had 2 directors for our firm. One of them wouldn't say boo to a goose and 90% of the workforce took advantage of that. He left 6 months ago due to stress. I got made supervisor and do find it difficult to now tell the lads who I used to be friends with what to do and even harder to reprimand them. I do feel some take advantage of the situation and don't pull their weight in the firm.

 

[centralheatking]

I have had up to 25 fitters on in the past. I think you are in the danger area. 5 fellas will NOT make you enough money. Its the danger zone where your men and lady will make more money than you do. You will be running around pricing jobs, getting gear, fixing mess ups you name it. When you were on your own you probably turned over less money but your net profit was % higher without all the hassle and worries.
Increased turnover is an illusion reserved for massive companies with
highly controlable fixed costs and a degree of clout over variable costs.
seen fellas leave me, have a go, get fed up and come back. 10+ fellas in 5 years is the magic numbers AND not all tied into one or two big contracts. more if you want it. centralheatking

 

[island fling]

Not going to comment on the time scale of things as we all know an hour's work can take 3 and a days work can be done half, just depends if you encounter any problems or not.

I will say though that you cant expect them to break a sweat every hour of the day like you, it's your business so your naturally going to be committed to the firm more than they are. Have you actually sat down with them and had a chat about your concerns? Sometimes biting your tongue isn't the best way to go, a good boss is firm but fair. My last boss who trained me was firm (won't comment on the fairness bit) and if I'd have left a customer with no water on overnight he'd have gone through the roof, so you getting a phone call at 7pm on a Friday with your guys leaving a customer with no water for the weekend is not acceptable. If you run round after them picking up the slack and don't say anything, they will let you. Toughen up and be their boss, not their friend.

Yes, I have sat them down & the response I go was "We can finish at 5pm if we want surely?" I explained why it wasn't acceptable & it was as if I was talking to a teenager. I never went too hard from there as it is hard getting qualified plumbers/heating engineers as everyone in my area is under the umbrella of, if we take on apprentices then we feed our competition. So its hard not to come across as an arse then have them walk. We have a morning progress meeting every monday & set out what is expected for the week & go over any issues any of us have for the week before & also any praise that is to be given. I would say that I come under the harsh but probably to fair bracket & yes I agree I probably need to toughen up.
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I have had up to 25 fitters on in the past. I think you are in the danger area. 5 fellas will NOT make you enough money. Its the danger zone where your men and lady will make more money than you do. You will be running around pricing jobs, getting gear, fixing mess ups you name it. When you were on your own you probably turned over less money but your net profit was % higher without all the hassle and worries.
Increased turnover is an illusion reserved for massive companies with
highly controlable fixed costs and a degree of clout over variable costs.
seen fellas leave me, have a go, get fed up and come back. 10+ fellas in 5 years is the magic numbers AND not all tied into one or two big contracts. more if you want it. centralheatking

You have just echod what a friend of a building firm has said to me - He told me to knuckle down, be a boss & push on to 12 on the books or go back to myself & 1 lad. He has 200 employees & says it was easier than when he had 7 as he now delegates the responsibilities.

 

[Millsy 82]

Pick the worst one of the lot. Next time they run over give them a verbal warning. Just say that you do not feel that they are doing the required amount of work and you cant afford to keep them if they persist at that pace. Word will pass to the others within 10 minutes of them leaving the room and they will either knuckle down or go.

 

[Scott_D]

If there is a week job, turn up and work yourself on the Friday.
See if they are working hard, need a hand, out for breakfast,

 

[centralheatking]

Yes, I have sat them down & the response I go was "We can finish at 5pm if we want surely?" I explained why it wasn't acceptable & it was as if I was talking to a teenager. I never went too hard from there as it is hard getting qualified plumbers/heating engineers as everyone in my area is under the umbrella of, if we take on apprentices then we feed our competition. So its hard not to come across as an arse then have them walk. We have a morning progress meeting every monday & set out what is expected for the week & go over any issues any of us have for the week before & also any praise that is to be given. I would say that I come under the harsh but probably to fair bracket & yes I agree I probably need to toughen up.
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You have just echod what a friend of a building firm has said to me - He told me to knuckle down, be a boss & push on to 12 on the books or go back to myself & 1 lad. He has 200 employees & says it was easier than when he had 7 as he now delegates the responsibilities.

Let me know how it all works out, good luck chking A great trick is always show the next mondays job just before the end of the previous
friday...that way they will get in their head plan it and get planned over the weekend ALL for free. more nuggets if you want

 

[Millsy 82]

If there is a week job, turn up and work yourself on the Friday.
See if they are working hard, need a hand, out for breakfast,

A lot of bosses I've had turn up at 9.50, 10.20, 12.50 and 13.35 just to make sure your breaks are not too long.

 

[firemant]

Let me know how it all works out, good luck chking A great trick is always show the next mondays job just before the end of the previous
friday...that way they will get in their head plan it and get planned over the weekend ALL for free. more nuggets if you want

Or they
wont fancy it and call in sick 😉

 

[Scott_D]

A lot of bosses I've had turn up at 9.50, 10.20, 12.50 and 13.35 just to make sure your breaks are not too long.

What’s a break, never had one of them?

 

[chris watkins]

You could try them on price work or a bonus to complete on time, money talks most of the time but it can bring its own problems.

 

[Aire]

You could try them on price work or a bonus to complete on time, money talks most of the time but it can bring its own problems.

My last boss tried a bonus with me on one job. I told him a week to run a high level 28mm water main through 4 industrial units with drops down in each unit and fully lagged. He told me do it in 3 days and ill give you bonus, I did it in 3 1/2 days and got nothing. I was furious 🙁

 

[chris watkins]

My last boss tried a bonus with me on one job. I told him a week to run a high level 28mm water main through 4 industrial units with drops down in each unit and fully lagged. He told me do it in 3 days and ill give you bonus, I did it in 3 1/2 days and got nothing. I was furious 🙁

That has always been the trouble unless very carefully managed they are divisive but he is pricing the jobs using a number of days / hours then could be an option to say "I will give you X" if you finish it early, say splitting the difference so it is win / win.

 

[Chuck]

You could try them on price work or a bonus to complete on time, money talks most of the time but it can bring its own problems.

Any bonus scheme needs to be carefully designed to make sure that it doesn't have unintended consequences, likely encouraging corner-cutting or burying problems.

One problem I've seen is that, in the early days per-job bonuses will be seen as nice extras and the vibe will be positive. After a while, they become the norm and when a job doesn't merit a bonus it's seen as punishment.

In your position, I'd be inclined to consider something based on customer satisfaction, e.g. the fraction of customers who were happy or very happy with the work done. You can include 'The work was completed on schedule' as one of the elements of CS you measure.

Discuss any ideas with your accountant to make sure they are tax-efficient and legal.