S-Plan Central Heating Installation Question

[ShaunCorbs]

Cooker point with 1g appliance socket normally for a kettle but depending on the oven / hob can be used for that

 

[RayPooley]

those are a 2G socket and a 45A isolator with a built in 13A socket

Ok. Put simply it's a cooker isolation switch.
What's missing from the picture is the UTC freezer that lives in front of it and normally weights about 60 - 70 Kg fully laden.
You can see the other two fridges one either side.
So, in a crisis situation requiring isolation of the cooker, like a fire for example, where it would be advisable to turn off the power to the cooker before using a fire extinguisher you would have to remove the freezer in order to gain access to the isolation switch.
Do you think that's a good idea?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Mcb/ rcbo also this would of tripped before any electrical fire

But consumer unit

 

[Murdoch]

Ok. Put simply it's a cooker isolation switch.
What's missing from the picture is the UTC freezer that lives in front of it and normally weights about 60 - 70 Kg fully laden.
You can see the other two fridges one either side.
So, in a crisis situation requiring isolation of the cooker, like a fire for example, where it would be advisable to turn off the power to the cooker before using a fire extinguisher you would have to remove the freezer in order to gain access to the isolation switch.
Do you think that's a good idea?

No it’s not a good idea to position an isolation switch there BUT there is nothing in BS 7671 that says you can’t do it

Yes the regs are written that badly

 

[RayPooley]

Mcb/ rcbo also this would of tripped before any electrical fire

But consumer unit

What? A burning chip pan on a cooker is going to trip an MCB/RCBO/RCD?
Oh. That's ok then. What do we need an isolation switch for then?
Better let the IET know. Been doing it wrong all these years.

 

[SimonG]

Why use ten words when a hundred will do. Or is that back to front.

Just crack on lifes too short to be dealing with people like you and it's all fine from my house.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What? A burning chip pan on a cooker is going to trip an MCB/RCBO/RCD?
Oh. That's ok then. What do we need an isolation switch for then?
Better let the IET know. Been doing it wrong all these years.

How would pulling the appliance and turning off the appliance isolation do the same then 😀

For manufacturer servicing of the fixed appliance

 

[RayPooley]

No it’s not a good idea to position an isolation switch there BUT there is nothing in BS 7671 that says you can’t do it

Yes the regs are written that badly

Within 2 metres of the oven and accessible. Doesn't that ring a bell?

Those are the main criteria assuming you use the correct MCB and cabling.

You can put it in a cupboard so long as you can open the cupboard and access it when necessary. Accessibility is important.

The guy who did that also left the CU in such a condition that you couldn't close it properly.

He produced an EIC at the end of the job. So it's reasonable to assume that he is competency registered. Right?

Of the various adjectives you might ascribe to that installation competent isn't one of them.

I called him back to the site and had him surface mount it ABOVE the counter top and in line with the three 2G sockets that are already there. Out of the reach of potential spillages. Visible and easily accessible.

Also told him to sort out the CU. Leaving it the way he found it. Closable

Why would I have to tell a competency registered electrician to do that? You get my point?

It's because competency has nothing to do with following the regulations.

You can and should do everything in accordance with the regulations and from a regulation standpoint be beyond criticism.

But competence is about common sense. You can't regulate stupidity.

 

[RayPooley]

How would pulling the appliance and turning off the appliance isolation do the same then 😀

For manufacturer servicing of the fixed appliance

A 5' 2", 8 stone 54 year old arthritic female cook versus a 60 - 70 Kg freezer.
What's the problem? Easy peasy.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

A 5' 2", 8 stone 54 year old arthritic female cook versus a 60 - 70 Kg freezer.
What's the problem? Easy peasy.

But you said above turning the elec off won’t stop the fire

 

[RayPooley]

But you said above turning the elec off won’t stop the fire

What? No I didn't.
I said turning the power off before using fire extinguishers would be necessary.
Can you think why that might be so? Give it a shot.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Re read 43-45-47

 

[Murdoch]

@RayPooley

there is no definition of accessible or inaccessible in BS 7671 and this has been the cause of much debate in the industry BUT seemingly the editors don’t agree

madness

 

[RayPooley]

Re read 43-45-47

Re read 43-45-47

Yes. And? Where did I write turning the power off would put out the fire?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

In post 49

 

[RayPooley]

@RayPooley

there is no definition of accessible or inaccessible in BS 7671 and this has been the cause of much debate in the industry BUT seemingly the editors don’t agree

madness

I agree. I have researched it numerous time. But as I said you can't write a regulation for every instance. Sometimes common sense dictates and given the purpose of the isolation switch, to isolate the device in the event of an emergency, common sense tells you not to put it somewhere where you can't access it immediately when you need to or even find it when you need to.

Having said that, there are 40 contributors to the IET Regulations according to my BYB (17th amendment). I can imagine them sitting around a table and asking themselves : Do we really need to tell these guys not to bury safety isolation switches undrrneath counters and behind heavy freezers? Can we not expect them to figure that out for themselves? They're supposed to be imnpressive. Right?

 

[RayPooley]

In post 49

So not in 43-45-47 then. Post 49.
Ok. Nope..

 

[Murdoch]

Having said that, there are 40 contributors to the IET Regulations according to my BYB (17th amendment). I can imagine them sitting around a table and asking themselves : Do we really need to tell these guys not to bury safety isolation switches underneath counters and behind heavy freezers? Can we not expect them to figure that out for themselves? They're supposed to be imnpressive. Right?

Sadly I think there are 2 answers to this:

1. I don't think the committee would accept they ever make mistakes or corrections are required (BS 7671 is littered with them)

2. These so called experts don't think they need to clarify this and this just demonstrates how out of touch they are with the 21st century

 

[RayPooley]

I agree. I have researched it numerous time. But as I said you can't write a regulation for every instance. Sometimes common sense dicates and given the purpose of the isolation switch, to isolate the device in the event of an emergency, common sense tells you not to put it somewhere where you can't access it immediately when you need to or even find it when you need to.

Sadly I think there are 2 answers to this:

1. I don't think the committee would accept they ever make mistakes or corrections are required (BS 7671 is littered with them)

2. These so called experts don't think they need to clarify this and this just demonstrates how out of touch they are with the 21st century

FWIW. Nobody pays me. I have nothing to gain from giving bad or misleading advice.

 

[RayPooley]

I'm back.

Anyway. I gave the spark the spec and did a walk through at the installation.
He's checked it over and he's fine with it. Will do the job in the spring to summer.

But then, I'm sitting watching the TV the other night and a thought popped into my head.

You could actually just fit a switch in the cable that goes from the wiring center to Honeywell Power Head in
the central heating line. Then all you would have to do is switch it off in the summer when you don't want central
heating. I imagine it is normally closed.

All that would cost is the price of a switch.

Any thoughts on that?

Cheers.