MCS Accreditation

[EasyMCSLtd]

Hi Guys,

Just thought I would start this thread if anyone want's any advice or has any questions on the MCS Accreditation process. We are specialists in MCS Accreditation Support on Quality Management Systems so if anyone want's to run through the Quality side of MCS on Heat Pumps, Solar Thermal, Biomass and CHP on the plumbing side of MCS or even the electrical based technologies such as Solar PV, Wind Turbines or Hydro Turbines. We work with all the MCS Certification bodies such as NICEIC, NAPIT, ELECSA, CORGI & BRE.

Cheers

Easy MCS Ltd
The Award Winning and Market Leading MCS Accreditation Specialists Easy MCS Ltd
Cost & Pain Free MCS Installer Accreditation & Certification
MCS Directory

 

[unguided1]

I honestly believe that the MCS in its current form is extremley dangerous for the sort of people it has been designed to protect.
In my own personal experiance all it is, is a paper trail with no relevance to what the actual MCS product is installed to. The installation itself could be completley inapropriate for a heatpump, but as long as it is installed correctly its fine, In the long term the customer ends up paying huge electricity bills, and heatpumps get an even worse name.

 

[Gray0689]

I honestly believe that the MCS in its current form is extremley dangerous for the sort of people it has been designed to protect.
In my own personal experiance all it is, is a paper trail with no relevance to what the actual MCS product is installed to. The installation itself could be completley inapropriate for a heatpump, but as long as it is installed correctly its fine, In the long term the customer ends up paying huge electricity bills, and heatpumps get an even worse name.

Hear hear mate spot on

 

[unguided1]

the same could also be said about gas safe

 

[mooreofdevizes]

Everyone I've spoken to who has been through MCS tells me that the inspection is all about paperwork and on most site inspections the inspectors didn't have a clue what they were looking at!

 

[unguided1]

yeah I know an inspector that didnt know that you had to have glycol in the system!!!!!!

 

[mooreofdevizes]

Unbelievable!

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

Hi Guys,

The MCS Inspection itself is split between Installations, Competency and Paperwork. The installation needs to be up to the MCS Standards, and the installer needs to be able to prove they are competent to install the equipment. With regards to the paperwork, the paperwork brings the installer into line in terms of functioning to MCS Standards and maintaining a minimum level of quality in the processes they work to. This not only protects the consumer and the government (who's funding they are distributing) but also protects the installer and allows the installer to grow to new levels as they now have the basis to grow into a more structured and successful organisation (if they aren't already). The important aspect for the paperwork is protection, the paperwork has to be followed to pass MCS any deviation wont pass, and by sticking to the paperwork involved and meeting the MCS Regulations it is near impossible to rip of "Mrs Smith" and for "Mrs Smith" to come back at the Installer.

The Quality Systems involved in the MCS Scheme are 99% of the time a structure which takes an installer to the next level and many of the installers we speak to realise how useful the systems are once they have passed.

When the MCS Inspector initially inspects you they would expect you to be competent as an Installer going off your qualifications and Installations. Once your yearly audit comes around this will be far more installation based as they will expect to see a number of installations and often send a technical inspector to perform this audit.

Any more questions feel free.

 

[unguided1]

Hi EasyMCS very nicely put I hope that what your saying becomes a reality and soon, all I can say is that through personal experiance of the MCS, Its been designed for big businesses not really for one man bands (physical cost). My experiance of MCS inspectors is that they are pen pushers who I wouldnt leave to put a hosepipe together. When I was inspected I expected the inspector to know more than me I also expected him to inspect the system that the heatpump was installed onto, he didntand he didnt have a clue.

I have seen many heatpumps in the last year installed on to inappropriate systems I have also put right work done by MCS accredited engineers who have refused to put their own work right and are currently being sued by their customers.

My opinion of The MCS is that its a joke and a damned expensive one to get through, unless your the sort company with clever paperwork people and charge extortianate prices using slave labour, this does not protect the customers, just makes fat profits for the type of companies that give our industry a bad name

I believe that it is extremely important that more emphasis should be spent on the installation to prove that it is appropriate for a heatpump and that one man bands should also get some sort of funding assistance to get them through the endless paperwork trail that is required

 

[dontknowitall]

Unguided1 - You took the words right out of my computer!!

I'm sorry to start in such a vein, EasyMCSLtd but this bias against the small business is what is bothering me.

I started plumbing 3 years ago (mid life crisis) and felt it would be sensible to serve my own apprenticeship by learning about standard water and heating systems before looking to go into the renewables industry.

There is a huge future in renewables and about time too. I've no gripe about technology being difficult and testing as it's uncharted territory. It seems though that anyone with enough money can just set up a business specialising in solar, ground source, etc but not have the fogiest idea on how water gets from the mains to the tap. I appreciate this is an exaggeration but hopefully you can see my point.

In the last year or so I've started to investigate the renewable industry more but there seems to be so much non information on the internet. I went to the oil and renewables heating show last year hoping to learn more. On the BPEC stand I asked about how I could start developing myself. I was told I had to do this MCS stuff for a few months. Then if I wanted to learn solar I had to do that exam. If I wanted to do underground source heating I had to do that exam. Solarvoltaic? Another exam. And with each of these a registration fee. And paperwork. And more laws to learn. And more regulations.

Who does this benefit? Certainly not the installers. Nor the customers. Interestingly (to me) all the winners of the various OFTEC awards were asked about their thoughts on renewables and they ALL said it was too expensive to install and too expensive to train for as well.

Another point is apparently anyone can install solar panels as long as they follow the instructions and do this legally. The major sticking point is that the customer won't be able to benefit from the feed-in-tariff unless the installer has passed all the exams and spend thousands on the registration and training process.

I'm not attacking you personally but the whole set up of how difficult this area is. I'm not expecting a polite reply (or any reply) but if you could pass some of these comments on to those who make these rules they might see why so many small business plumbers and heating engineers are not very serious with these renewable opportunities. And, if you've read this far, thank you!!

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

Hi dontknowitall,

To be fair you make some valid points although some reports of what you have mentioned may not be wholly accurate. Did you attend Ecobuild? If you did that would have opened you eyes to how the industry has moved on and how large it is already before the heating side we are discussing has even got going (started accelerating on 10th march 2011).

With regards to the regulations and whether any old person can go through accreditation, it is impossible for someone who doesn't understand the technology to pass MCS Certification let alone pass the yearly audits where they come down heavily on your installations. There is an element of paperwork and regulation in the MCS Standards but this is wholly necessary to give installers who have no structure in place, the base they need to build a renewable installation business on. It protects the installer, the consumer and the government (paying the bill) from neglect as the procedures need to be followed to retain your MCS Certification. With regards to training the course you will go on for the technology will be nothing complicated for an experienced installer such as yourself you just need to be able to show the assessor that you have had the appropriate training without a raft of installations to show him/her. For the first year the assessor is looking at your qualifications and demonstration installation (as you wont have 20 installations they can go and see), then in the second year they will want to see more than one installation and be looking at your technical ability in more detail.

The process does not have to be as daunting as everyone makes out and it is perfectly accessible to everyone from single "one man bands" through to large installation companies. The costs are no longer prohibitive but the standards of MCS have been maintained so if you use an MCS Accredited Installer you know you are using a quality installer and you as the consumer are protected by that quality mark.

I Hope this helps and welcome any thoughts you have.

 

[dontknowitall]

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I'll have another look here in a couple of days when I return as you have made it sound much more promising. Thank you, again.

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

No problem glad to help with any questions.

 

[dontknowitall]

I've had a chance to look but stopped quite quickly! Have I got this right ...?

I'm a one man band and am interested in solar thermal and photovoltaics.

First I have to get a Quality Management System in place and to ensure this goes smoothly I have to pay £594 plus £120 plus £120.

Then for on-going support I need to pay £600 a year.

The total cost of all this is £1,434.

My public liability insurance is about £340. My OFTEC registration is around £160 a year. My FGA costs are about £150 a year. (I don't do gas or hetas.)

So if I want to keep my OFTEC status and branch into renewables, I am looking at £2,084.

My van costs £3,000 to run each year (plus depreciation) so these costs are just over £5,000.

My daily labour rate (gross) is £175 and after expenses like marketing, accountancy fees, telephone, advertising, etc I make around £120 for a full day's work (before tax).

The OFTEC and renewables cost is getting on for a full day's work every week of the year.

Presumably there are exams to take and courses to go on and I cannot imagine these only cost £50 a time.

This is what I mean't by it being too much for a single person business.

I really would feel that I'm doing our children and grandchildren some good if I could install renewables but this cost is just too much for me.

I sincerely hope I've got some of these costings wrong.

 

[ecowarm]

And on top of that is the mcs regristration fee which varies, but corgi will do you for 715 + vat for 2 technologies per year !!!!!

 

[Toddyplumb]

Train in your renewables , let the big boys take all the money from grant work , and then go repairing and fixing as they dissappear with the profits, and no one knows where they are or they wont come back , sort of like warm front

 

[Toddyplumb]

MCS what sort of grant will a homeowner get on Solar thermal

 

[quality]

MCS what sort of grant will a homeowner get on Solar thermal

Home : R Sharp Heating And Plumbing Ltd
quality installer why not give them a call

 

[ecowarm]

Nice web site Quality

Are you MCS?

 

[Toddyplumb]

My take on it ( Sorry quality am already Solar installer)
Lets say you get 300kw of solar heat (anyone any better figures)
You will get 8.5p per Kw for 20 years woweeeeeee works out at £510 over 20 years🙁
Keep your MCS im offering £600 discount today !
Did a twin cylinder solar system evac tube . Big company was £8500 for materials !!!! We did job all in £5500
We plumbers and heating engineers etc must be the stupidest people on this planet yet another drain on us to do the job we can already do !!!!!!

 

[unguided1]

Looks like you guys are getting the picture, As with anything that is backed by Government and I am not on about political parties but the beaurocrats, There has been no thoughts to small businesses and one man bands, The physical cost of a one man band, may be installing the odd heatpump the odd solar panel the odd woodburner and so on is prohibitve, How long will it be before we are forced to go through some extorinate scheme to fit bathroom suites and so on.

The one most excellent thing about anything that is backed by beaurocrats is they usualy leave loopholes wide enough to drive 2 x 1 mile long super tankers through sideways, and saying that I am still not MCS accredited because of cost and the endless hoops for paperwork but I am still registering sign offs

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

My take on it ( Sorry quality am already Solar installer)
Lets say you get 300kw of solar heat (anyone any better figures)
You will get 8.5p per Kw for 20 years woweeeeeee works out at £510 over 20 years🙁
Keep your MCS im offering £600 discount today !
Did a twin cylinder solar system evac tube . Big company was £8500 for materials !!!! We did job all in £5500
We plumbers and heating engineers etc must be the stupidest people on this planet yet another drain on us to do the job we can already do !!!!!!

Hi Toddyplumb,

The figures you have presented would not make it attractive for anyone but in reality you would'd be looking at 300kwh a year as this is far too small an average would be more like 2000kwh on a Solar Thermal system and 20,000kwh on a heat pump system.

So lets say the Domestic RHI pays out at double the commercial rate similar to the feed in tariffs on the electrical side. This will mean the following sort of cash back would be expected and this will make it far more attractive to any electrical installation. In addition add on the fact that you could be saving 50% + off your Oil or LPG bill and you are well into the profit.

Ground/Air Source Heat Pump @ 10p/kwh £2,000.00 per year for 20 years + £500 a year savings on an average oil bill? = £50,000 over 20 years and the install cost on air source might be £5,000 - £6,000 and ground source might be £8,000 - £10,000
Solar Thermal @17p/kwh £340 per year for 20 years + £200 a year savings on hot water? = £11,000 over 20 years average install cost £4,000

The whole industry is going to boom on the back of these generous proposals which are needed to get the market to where it should be. Experienced heating engineers like yourselves should be at the front of the line for the work.

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

Hi dontknowitall ,

I will give you a brief rundown on the costs you are looking at for certification. The average cost is £1,100 for an installer to become MCS Certified and then £400 a year to be audited each year. Don't include the ongoing support cost as that is optional if you dont want to maintain it yourself. For £1,100 you have MCS and then £400 a year on top of your other costs to keep your certification. If you needed to go on a course to learn a new technology you are looking at approx £300 for a certified one and that is one off. In terms of day rates if you speak to other installers in the industry i would think your day rate will drastically improve if you are now installing a Solar Thermal installation or Air Source Heat Pump installation where your competition is alot smaller, demand far higher and customers are putting these systems in because of the incentives available, which aren't available in the other markets you are working in. Advertising probably wont even be necessary as most installers get flooded with work because there is a shortage of experienced engineers who are certified to install these technologies.

Your oftec is £160 a year your MCS will be £400 a year? but for £400 a year bringing in 1 heat pump job at £7,000 you will have paid it for the next 5 years+?

I welcome any thoughts.

 

[GQuigley67]

as much as I would like to get into renewables as it is the future and looks exciting, I just can't afford it

 

[EasyMCSLtd]

Hi GQuigley67,

Not a problem one thing you can try is start looking into technologies you may easily move into so take heat pumps as an example. Next time your at "Mrs Smiths" and he boiler has packed in and she says how much for a new one and you say £1,000 you could always offer her the alternative of a heat pump system at £6,000 which will earn he £1500-£2000 a year? And she is not dependant on gas which is only going one way? Then once you have a job lined up as your first one you can look into going through the certification process etc?

Always worth a thought as the governments hope is when these boilers do break down people will want to look at renewable alternatives instead of a simple boiler swap?

What are your thoughts?