Gas/Plumbing Courses

[mabs89]

I'm doing a gas course at the moment, I'm a bit confused is it essential to do a NVQ 2 Plumbing course as well or not.

 

[julesverne]

gas course is a bit non descript, can tell us the exact course you aredoing and where

 

[mabs89]

oh sorry I'm doing a 30 day gas foundation courses with OLCI, which includes 5 days basic plumbing, 5 gas foundation, 10 days gas installation, 5 days advance controls 5 days foundation assessment.

 

[kirkgas]

oh sorry I'm doing a 30 day gas foundation courses with OLCI, which includes 5 days basic plumbing, 5 gas foundation, 10 days gas installation, 5 days advance controls 5 days foundation assessment.

no you dont, gas foundation course is designed for people with no previous quals or experience, not impressed with the training centre if you dont know this before you start, hope you also know that you will need to build a portfolio of evidence BEFORE you can sit your ACS exams, 30 days isnt a lot to learn the foundation stuff oncve you take the 5 days plumbing off, i believe with OLCI course that you have a lot of home study to learn the bits in between the bits they teach you, but you have internet support if you need to ask questions on the stuff you dont know (just not sure how you will know you dont understand it in the house, although it will become apparent when you sit your exams and need to pay for a resit) we run the same bpec course and have the candidates in for 14 weeks theory (including exams), and out on placement for 14 weeks building their portfolio but if another place can do it in 6 who am i to say it isnt right, just different to the way we do it

 

[kay-jay]

what have they promised you in return for your 30 days - please tell me its not gsr

 

[kay-jay]

aah good call kirk

 

[kay-jay]

p.s its always better to have a solid background in plumbing first, as many faults can happen on heating and ho****er systems that have bugger all to do with the actual gas appliance.

 

[kirkgas]

what have they promised you in return for your 30 days - please tell me its not gsr

its in his post,
" 5 gas foundation, 10 days gas installation, 5 days advance controls 5 days foundation assessment".
and in that the 5 day foundation assessment is a first line exam to see if he is suitable to move onto his ACS exam, these days are spread out and are done when he has done all the other stuff in the house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so 20 days being taught in class with the rest self-taught

 

[mabs89]

Im just getting more confused, is this training centre not good? also in this industry would you recommend i take plumbing course or is it nothing to worry about it? also is this home study not good ideal and whats my best approach of doing this?, most centre i enquired about online before i signed up seem to have a lot of home study.

 

[fuzzy]

I'm doing a gas course at the moment, I'm a bit confused is it essential to do a NVQ 2 Plumbing course as well or not.

if you mean work towards your acs then no you dont need any quals

 

[fuzzy]

Im just getting more confused, is this training centre not good? also in this industry would you recommend i take plumbing course or is it nothing to worry about it? also is this home study not good ideal and whats my best approach of doing this?, most centre i enquired about online before i signed up seem to have a lot of home study.

youll struggle in industry without the correct quals such as nvq, plus youll struggle to get a start, without experience youll be left behind and wont last long

sorry, these are the facts

 

[sparra1100]

no you dont, gas foundation course is designed for people with no previous quals or experience, not impressed with the training centre if you dont know this before you start, hope you also know that you will need to build a portfolio of evidence BEFORE you can sit your ACS exams, 30 days isnt a lot to learn the foundation stuff oncve you take the 5 days plumbing off, i believe with OLCI course that you have a lot of home study to learn the bits in between the bits they teach you, but you have internet support if you need to ask questions on the stuff you dont know (just not sure how you will know you dont understand it in the house, although it will become apparent when you sit your exams and need to pay for a resit) we run the same bpec course and have the candidates in for 14 weeks theory (including exams), and out on placement for 14 weeks building their portfolio but if another place can do it in 6 who am i to say it isnt right, just different to the way we do it

absolutly spot on kirkgas mate

and what happens on his first day with no plumbing experience he,s passed his gas and he,s in someones house (and as i always say) has to swap a y plan to a combi ,totally scary ,plus he drains down thinks he emptyed the system but he hasnt as the tank is still full as hes cutting into the 22mm cos he thinks its empty cos the taps are not running no more i personally think you shouldnt be near gas until youve done a least a yr out in the field learning stuff even doing boiler services you have to no plumbing the worlds gone mad

 

[mabs89]

GSR- do you mean gas safe registered, they said they'll put on the gas safe register and i can carry out gas work but i have to work for a company i cant go self employed, is that right?

 

[mabs89]

not until someone comes out from gas safe and watches my work over a while and assesses me then i will is that correct as well

 

[tamz]

It is only a matter of time (if it hasn't already happened) before there are fatalities due to the greed of some so called training centres and the naivety of their patrons.

The world has indeed gone mad Sparra

 

[mabs89]

It is only a matter of time (if it hasn't already happened) before there are fatalities due to the greed of some so called training centres and the naivety of their patrons.

The world has indeed gone mad Sparra

are you saying these training arent good ideas and isn't a good way

 

[sparra1100]

GSR- do you mean gas safe registered, they said they'll put on the gas safe register and i can carry out gas work but i have to work for a company i cant go self employed, is that right?

sorry to be horrible ,but everything that needs to be said is here in this post and any center that takes his money should be ashamed of themselfs and how he,ll get thro the acs i really dont no

 

[PlumbBobBob]

I'm doing a gas course at the moment, I'm a bit confused is it essential to do a NVQ 2 Plumbing course as well or not.

it's not essential but it is highly recommended to have some plumbing experience

 

[tamz]

The procedure for entrance to the trade is well documented if you look it up. Kirkgas gave an example above.
Even with these timescales, if you go se after you are "qualified" (the chances of getting employed are about on par with getting 5 numbers on the lottery) how do you know you are doing it correctly. Like learning to swim by reading a book. You won't know you are doing it wrong until you are drowning.
There are a lot of training centres bending the rules to speed up the time needed. Unless someone is coming from a related mechanical or engineering trade there is no way they can learn enough in that time to work competently and completely understand what they are doing in the real world unless they are just writing out CP12's (which many end up doing) and condemning everything because they know no better.
Your example timescale is a joke and it is time the HSE or someone else clamped down on these practices but as usual nothing is done until the s hits the fan.
When GSR took over from Corgi, part of their remit was to make more people aware and get more people registered. They have certainly done that by allowing every tom dick and harry to join while the unregistered (many who actually do know what they are doing) go unchecked.

 

[kirkgas]

GSR- do you mean gas safe registered, they said they'll put on the gas safe register and i can carry out gas work but i have to work for a company i cant go self employed, is that right?

i work in training so in effect a competitor to this supplier, so perhaps my comments could be seen as biased, but they will be seen for what they are, and i have no problems making statements and dont make them so you will book with me instead, but i do have issues with the way the course is sold/run/perceived,
you can when qualified pay £428 plus VAT and become self employed you will go on a probation list and be visited and monitored like every other new entrant, if you get emplyed by a company the company will pay £63 to put you on their register and will be monitored by them as they are existing and have systems, so not sure whast the supplier has told you or they mean by the comment

 

[kirkgas]

are you saying these training arent good ideas and isn't a good way

i have a major issue with you learning in the house on your own, how do you know you understand what you are reading, and even if you do understand it, it must be better in a class of other students, discussing/debating/understanding their issues to be clear on the training, i have heard the selling point is flexability of training, ie you can study at your own pace, to me thats slick sales spin,

 

[sparra1100]

i work in training so in effect a competitor to this supplier, so perhaps my comments could be seen as biased, but they will be seen for what they are, and i have no problems making statements and dont make them so you will book with me instead, but i do have issues with the way the course is sold/run/perceived,
you can when qualified pay £428 plus VAT and become self employed you will go on a probation list and be visited and monitored like every other new entrant, if you get emplyed by a company the company will pay £63 to put you on their register and will be monitored by them as they are existing and have systems, so not sure whast the supplier has told you or they mean by the comment

dont see how your comments could be biased kirkgas, your on here all the time giving advice out, saying it how it is and when somethink comes up in a grey area you usually have an idea there should be more like you who go on here in there spare time and not just taking the money like some do with no regard for safety the place i done my acs still give me help and advice, when needed and that was a few yrs ago so i think thats good ,still there helping,by the sounds of it this bloke thinks he,s just gunner do the home course and he,s gas safe

 

[Deleted member 25704]

I think there will be so many plumbers/gas installers de-registering over the next couple of years, it won't matter what qualifications you have, Gas Safe will take you.

Gas Safe are owned by Capita, and they are under pressure from government to squeeze the self employed (FGA course), in order to create growth.

Growth is all that matters and nobody willing to stump up the dosh, is going to be refused entry.

1 weeks training, 2 days training - it doesn't matter - the key is in the belief that we can learn things without experience. Have we gone mad, or do we just want to share in the education and training delusion, spun by a bunch of management strategists and paper shufflers.

We may start to realise the truth of the situation, that working as a plumber will be a minimum wage job over the next decade - the government will make sure of that, because its their job to keep wage inflation low (which in turn keeps national inflation low).

The government are training up the self employed and promoting enterprise culture to give jobs to 'professionals', those on the periphery bleeding us dry.

If the self-employed goes bust, there are many waiting in the wings to go spend their retirement funds, re-mortgage the house, borrow from banks, to get into this minimum wage industry.

Get a job in Costa Coffee or JB sports, have holiday pay, have sick-pay, have others take the load, and have a happy life.

 

[fuzzy]

GSR- do you mean gas safe registered, they said they'll put on the gas safe register and i can carry out gas work but i have to work for a company i cant go self employed, is that right?

only if you have your acs

 

[fuzzy]

I think there will be so many plumbers/gas installers de-registering over the next couple of years, it won't matter what qualifications you have, Gas Safe will take you.

cannot see that happening

 

[kirkgas]

I think there will be so many plumbers/gas installers de-registering over the next couple of years, it won't matter what qualifications you have, Gas Safe will take you.

Gas Safe are owned by Capita, and they are under pressure from government to squeeze the self employed (FGA course), in order to create growth.

Growth is all that matters and nobody willing to stump up the dosh, is going to be refused entry.

1 weeks training, 2 days training - it doesn't matter - the key is in the belief that we can learn things without experience. Have we gone mad, or do we just want to share in the education and training delusion, spun by a bunch of management strategists and paper shufflers.

We may start to realise the truth of the situation, that working as a plumber will be a minimum wage job over the next decade - the government will make sure of that, because its their job to keep wage inflation low (which in turn keeps national inflation low).

The government are training up the self employed and promoting enterprise culture to give jobs to 'professionals', those on the periphery bleeding us dry.

If the self-employed goes bust, there are many waiting in the wings to go spend their retirement funds, re-mortgage the house, borrow from banks, to get into this minimum wage industry.

Get a job in Costa Coffee or JB sports, have holiday pay, have sick-pay, have others take the load, and have a happy life.

i dont disagree with what you have said, bit the truth is has much changed over the years? i was a time served plumber working for a large social housing direct works department who had a seperate "renovation dept" who went round the country doing major refurbs, in their wisdom the management decided to pay them all off and use subbies, so they needed a warranty guy from inhouse to look after the boilers, so each of the 7 scottish depots was asked to put a plumber through their gas, so a volunteer was needed, i volunteered to go from the glasgow depot and was sent to college for a week to do my ACOP's, it was a total joke, almost like a training session where we all gathered round to do the assessment and if one brave soul offered an answer that was correct we all wrote it down and on the friday we all went away as gas engineers, i swear i had never done any gas work before that week, and when my tickets came through a few weeks later i was a gas guy, how scarey is that? we were simply left to get on with it, with no management support or anything, because we had to register the maintenancve side with CORGI we got an inspection and the inspector was fantastic with us, gave us great help and assistance without putting us under any pressure (cheers Terry Ralph) and got us up and running, so i dont see that as being an ideal scenario, and that was about 18yrs ago or so, so you cant blame everything on Capita, as it has surely got better since ACOP's days?

 

[Puddle]

Think there is a big difference from an experienced plumber doing a short course and someone who is coming in from an unrelated back ground say it retail,truck driving or phone marketing

The problem is being compounded now by the fact their is not really enough work to keep everyone busy,especially the new fast track,inexperienced operative

In the past if you were new to the gas side (or any new skill within the plumbing field)you could take on what you thought you were capable of and build up your confidence and experience at a steady responsible manor

Now,many have to take on what they are offered or they find available ,as can not afford to turn revenue down,this pressurises them to take on things they are not comfortable at what ever stage of their skills development they are

I know all the government cares only about is statistics as regards skills level of population (on paper) and seeing training as we can in our industry ,it makes you wonder what actual skill levels are in other professions,if Joe Public actually know the truth,do not think they would be to pleased

imho

 

[kirkgas]

Think there is a big difference from an experienced plumber doing a short course and someone who is coming in from an unrelated back ground say it retail,truck driving or phone marketing

The problem is being compounded now by the fact their is not really enough work to keep everyone busy,especially the new fast track,inexperienced operative

In the past if you were new to the gas side (or any new skill within the plumbing field)you could take on what you thought you were capable of and build up your confidence and experience at a steady responsible manor

Now,many have to take on what they are offered or they find available ,as can not afford to turn revenue down,this pressurises them to take on things they are not comfortable at what ever stage of their skills development they are

I know all the government cares only about is statistics as regards skills level of population (on paper) and seeing training as we can in our industry ,it makes you wonder what actual skill levels are in other professions,if Joe Public actually know the truth,do not think they would be to pleased

imho

i agree that for some aspects of the job then being a plumber would make it easier, but TBH the gas jobs i was given the day i got my cert were "no heating" "boiler very noisy" "boiler keeps cutting out" and i had NEVER done any boilers or gas work, ok i can solder and fit pipes and had done 1000's of wet side heating, but i honestly dont think it helped me do any gas, i had a good working ethos because i was taught well, but so have many gas foundation people who were taught engineering, or fault finding or anything logical from their own specialised field

 

[Deleted member 25704]

oh sorry I'm doing a 30 day gas foundation courses with OLCI, which includes 5 days basic plumbing, 5 gas foundation, 10 days gas installation, 5 days advance controls 5 days foundation assessment.

Mabs, your post here sums up our industry.

If one can become a plumber or fitter after that amount of training (without real-world experience) then we are all in trouble, especially the public.

Licence to practice (Gas Safe) is supposed to provide better goods and services to the public.

It beggers belief. That is why licence to practice, is devoid of evidence of where it has actually improved service and goods to the public.

 

[fuzzy]

Mabs, your post here sums up our industry.

If one can become a plumber or fitter after that amount of training (without real-world experience) then we are all in trouble, especially the public.

Licence to practice (Gas Safe) is supposed to provide better goods and services to the public.

It beggers belief. That is why licence to practice, is devoid of evidence of where it has actually improved service and goods to the public.

im sorry clanger but its not the case, the gas foundation is only a foundation. Unless you have a gas NVQ or city and guilds you must provide auditable evidence of working on gas out in industry before you can sit any ACS assessments. So the post explaining what they are doing on the course is not the full story

 

[Deleted member 25704]

im sorry clanger but its not the case, the gas foundation is only a foundation. Unless you have a gas NVQ or city and guilds you must provide auditable evidence of working on gas out in industry before you can sit any ACS assessments. So the post explaining what they are doing on the course is not the full story

Fuzzy, I can understand this, about providing evidence, but so far this has not been challenged. Its a farce.

It doesn't matter if it is foundation course or NVQ, or tech cert...the principles of the competency system are flawed. In addition, the premise of foundation courses are concerned with decontextualised 'cognitive knowledge', which is a bit different from context-based know-how. When we add to this the issue of 'time' we find that teaching people for events that might happen in the future is a bit of problem, when it comes to remembering - if we add to this 'relevance', how many qualification curricula are relevant to what students are doing at work - probably few instances - so even if they can remember, its probably not relevant.

The faith we put in teaching, and transmission approaches to 'cognitive knowledge' is misguided - what can you remember from school that is of any benefit in real life? And does this knowledge present value for being caged for 12 years at said school?

 

[fuzzy]

clanger there are many different aspects to your post and very interesting view points
i partially agree with most but not entirely

1. our industry, yes i know the ill feeling towards these short foundation type courses but people will argue that they are there to support people with experience who need the actual quals and/or to provide additional training and skills for people wanting to get into industry (depending on which actual qual we are discussing)
2. school, yourr right i probably dont remember a single thing that has helped me, but that doesnt mean it didnt, for one, i can read and right, without that much of what i have done wouldnt have been possible
3. cognitive knowledge v practical know how - my view is they run hand in hand, one without the other doesnt work very well

im pro education for what it has done for me, that doesnt mean i dont believe in actually doing things. different jobs require different learning needs. for practical jobs an apprenticeship over 4 years is the best way to go. adult trainees dont want to train for that long. colleges dont want only apprentices as their view is we are part of education, people having to have a job to access education goes against their ethos

whats the answer?

 

[plumbobsqarepip]

im sorry clanger but its not the case, the gas foundation is only a foundation. Unless you have a gas NVQ or city and guilds you must provide auditable evidence of working on gas out in industry before you can sit any ACS assessments. So the post explaining what they are doing on the course is not the full story

Did my acs about a year and a half ago, And although i trained the 'correct way' (nvq on site) All the evidence my fellow class mates need was a sentence of what they did and a signiture...

 

[fuzzy]

Did my acs about a year and a half ago, And although i trained the 'correct way' (nvq on site) All the evidence my fellow class mates need was a sentence of what they did and a signiture...

to do thier ACS?

 

[plumbobsqarepip]

it was an nvq 3 + acs course