Sacked today

[southcoastboile]

This is a realy long thread so bear with me...
I got the sack today, been with the company 8 years, under 3 different bosses, never had a problem, we had a new manager around 2 years ago, no one on our company likes him (he was apointed by our directors who we never see), we have all been threre around the same amount of time. Since he arrived we have all had writen/verbal warnings of some sort and before this none of us have ever had a problem before.

I went to a job, left the loft ladder down and forgot to put it back up (stupid mistake) this was a good friend of my bosses/apointed manager and lives a few doors down, next thing I get a phone call saying her 2 year old kid climbed up the ladder and was crawling around in the loft, then when she got him down she trapped and badly cut her finger on the loft ladder. I explained I was sorry for leaving it down and she shouldnt have let a 2 year old roam the house up a set of stairs (aparantly she lifted him over the stairgate and left hiom on the stairs while she was attending to her other crying child) I also explained that if her ladder is not fit for purpose its not my fault she trapped her finger. A few days later he said we could have been sued and she had been bending his ear so now he has to fit her a new boiler for free. I think the whole thing was a big plan from the start and think its phisically impossible for a 2 year old to climb a ladder of that height and then lift up and over a beam.
I also recieved a letter about this incident.

Next incident, I got a callout to a boiler not working in a care home (no htg), It was commercial so I said I couldnt attend, he took me into a meeting saying I must attend all jobs no matter what, if i cant do the job as I am not qualified tell them you will get back. I said ok fine.

Then today I was told I have brought the company into disrepute and im sacked, he read off a list of things that I had done wrong, 1 was a blaitant lie, things I had done wrong were minor, i.e leaving a mains shut off as they had a leak, went to a job, thought it was undergassed so ar boiler, aparantly it was'nt, he went back to turn it on again, mabee I didnt have the inlet screw out far enough but boiler was going to f1 glowworm, pressure was fine, had 16mbr wp with hob not even on. Like I say a few minor things like that, all callbacks basicaly, there were about 7 things like that, I said I am so rushed all the time that it is inevitable mistakes will sometimes be made.

The company is struggling and I have heared they are going to shut down in April so i think its all a big plan to avoid paying redundancy, we were also on stop at a supplier yesterday, never happened before.

Just wanted peoples opinions on it realy, I think its unfair dismissal, I am going to see citizens advice but dont know the ins and outs, i.e can he just sack me without a writen/verbal warning, do the things mentioned above count as a writen or verbal?

I am not going to let him get away with it and will do everything I can to make it difficult. My mate who works for us said hes a nasty bloke and thinks the same, so does the other person we employ, he said he will be a whitness if i need one to say what he's like and that he thinks its wrong. Sorry for such a long thread, tried to shorten it as much as I could, any imput would be appreciated, thanks:shocked:

 

[Puddle]

Firstly,rally sorry to hear about your situation and I really hope you get in somewhere else quite soon

For what you say above,without warnings verbal and written they can not sack you,take it further as you say

Interesting about the loft ladder,it is her property and responsibility to make sure in good order,by saying she cut her hand could be construed as she put you in danger ect

She got a new boiler out of it,someone is pulling a fast one somewhere

imho

 

[PlumbBobBob]

sorry to hear about your troubles. i'm with puddle on this, the ladder cutting her finger is down to her not you. she has total responsibility for her child and certainly shouldn't have left it the wrong side of stair gates. as for getting a new boiler for this it's way over the top as compensation. very good friends and family reduction me thinks.
i recon the new manager was brought in to shut down the business and the cheapest way to do that is to sack the workforce on trumped up charges so doing away with the need to pay redundancy.

 

[Barry98]

he cant sack you without an investiagtion subsequently he cant do the investigation and the diciplinary himself. from what ive read i recon you have a good case of unfair dismissal.sorry to hear of your loss hope you find something soon

 

[southcoastboile]

thanks everyone, nearley everyone I have spoken to has said similar things, I went to a parts place yesterday and we were on stop, we have never ever been on stop there, all adds up twords them shutting down in April, an ex employee who quit told me that the manager said to him they were shutting down the maintenace side of things in April and just doing install work and that he would be part of the "new workforce" he had no reason to lie as he quit of his own accord.
On a different note,if anyone knows of people who need a hand or have got a lot of work on and are looking for someone near the Bournemouth area, please let me know, I am hard working and will not let them down, thanks.

Also have my own gas safe and public liability.

 

[MattWeth]

Sorry to hear what's happened - it certainly sounds like a setup but I'd get to the citizens advice asap. They're the ones who can tell you where you stand legally.

best
Matt

 

[Leo21]

Sorry to hear that. Is this rubbish still going on. Happened to me 14 years ago. From what I understand he can sack you immediately for gross misconduct or similar. But he,ll have to prove it. The ladder sequence sounds like a right scam. Did she cut her finger every she used it or just that one time. Two year olds should never be left unattended, case of bad parenting? Hope you get it sorted and chin up you've got a trade. You might have to do some low paid work for a while but the fog will lift and you can either go self employed or find a decent company to work for. You've obviously got experience which is in Your favour.

 

[ecowarm]

Plumber/ gas fitter wanted in weymouth 01305 839866 try here

Dont know if this is close enough or not but maybe worth a ring, sorry to hear of your problem

 

[southcoastboile]

Thanks for that ecowarm I no that area code, its weymouth way, about an hour from me.
thats what he said Leo, the reason was he sacked me, the fact ive made all these mistakes means i am bringing the company into disrepute and therefore gross misconduct.
Everyone ive spoken to thinks I have a good case for unfair/constructive dismissal so will see what cab say about it, im off on my bike now to my uncles place, he owns an aircon shop/company, hopefully he can give me some work for a bit, fingers crossed. Going to be wiered riding a bike around, my mates going to come with me van hunting tomorrow, got about 5grand but might be worth buying something crap for now, not knowing what I will have comming in.

 

[glenno1]

Sorry to hear your bad news but just like to say im with everyone else on this.I believe the routine should have been suspension ( payed)pending investigation at the most.Sounds like a scam between two buddies to me.Get legal advice and give them a fight mate

 

[BLOD]

A free boiler for leaving a loft ladder down ? - never heard such a load of rubbish.
Don't let it get you down southcoast - the guy is some sort of clown

 

[Rickster123]

Sounds extremely harsh to me. If I were you I'd take legal advice immediately and see where you stand. Sorry to hear the bad news. Times are hard out there. If I hear of any work in your area I'll get in touch.

 

[zzzjim]

Sorry about the bad news , Injecting this kind of Stress into the workplace ,never helps you concentrate .
Wish you luck with pastures greener ! ( Less schemes ,and hidden agendas ! )

 

[SimonG]

Bad crack SouthCoast, definitely sounds as though there's something amiss on this. You have to chase it, even if it's to 'clear' your name. Any new employer will want to know where you worked last and why you left. You don't want their underhand dealings tarring your reputation.

 

[GrahamM]

Harsh mate!
As mentioned, as far as I am aware you can only be sacked on the spot for gross misconduct. Such as punching the boss in the mouth.:grin:
Does your contract not outline the disciplinary procedure?

 

[Roger Welton]

Not good, It does sound a bit harsh, and somewhat suspicious with the company closing shortly.

They con only sack you outright for gros misconduct, several diciplinaries can lead to dismisal also, but they would need to have dotted i's and cossed t's with regard to paperwork for this. CAB definatly a good port of call.

Unfair dismissal may be an option but it can be expensive avenue to persue sadly.

Best of luck finding work.

 

[PowerFlusher2]

Find yourself a no win, no fee employment law solicitor and go talk it over with them.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

sorry to hear this news southcoast but as the others have said its a scam,get some professional advice

 

[Mike Jackson]

Definitely sound as though you've been stitched up. Get some legal advice asap and don't let them get away with this.

Did they let you have a representative with you when they gave you your disciplinary?

Definitely sounds like unfair dismissal to me.

 

[tamz]

Sorry to hear that. Unless the 2 year old was an apprentice tarzan it didn't climb a ladder and it is all bollox. An excuse to get you off the books.

You can be instantly dismissed for what is called gross misconduct which covers things like fighting, stealing, being drunk on the job, unauthorised use of company vehicle, doing your own work related to the companies trade (even in your own time) or even smoking in a no smoking zone etc but the one that affects you is actions to seriously offend a client and /or detract from the Companies good name or reputation. However you have should have a case if they didn't follow the correct procedure.
Fistly they should have suspended you pending a written invitation to attend a meeting to discuss the alleged incident. The letter should inform you of the reason and explain your rights to be accompanied etc.
You then go to the meeting and they state the allegations and you have the chance to respond. They will make their decision based on the meeting and you should be informed in writing.
They then have to give you the opportunity to appeal.
If they haven't done this then this can be classed as unfair dismissal. The CAB or ACAS will keep you right.
Hope you get something sorted pretty quick finding a new start.

 

[Barry98]

has the dime bar given you all this in writing ?

 

[kay-jay]

if they haven't followed set procedures to the letter it is classed as unfair dismissal. for gross misconduct you need to have been suspended on full pay with the situation confirmed in writing and invited to interview.

even if you should have been sacked it doesn't matter - if they didn't follow procedure it is unfair dismissal end of story,

my mate just got 7 grand unfair dismissal pay off o-o-c settlement. he should have been sacked, they always threatened to sack him for myriad minor offences which really peed him off so he asked the owners wife if she had a hairy one:rockon: he won because they didn't do it by the book...........

 

[kay-jay]

p.s don't be put off by the cost as they will become liable for this as well. any solicitor should give you 2 mins to hear your story then he'll run with it i'm sure

 

[mfgs]

As has been said, they have not followed the correct procedure for sacking you. The only way they can sack you outright is for gross misconduct. CAB are the people to speak to first off as they will tell you your rights. Dont go for a no win, no fee type lawyer if you do pursue it. They do as little work as possible and settle for low amounts easily.

 

[southcoastboile]

i lost it as i got it 8 years ago, we changed the company name 2 years ago and i never recieved a new one, I spoke to solicitors and they said original contract still stands in that case. I asked twice in the last month for my contract of employment but they kept saying we will look into it.

 

[southcoastboile]

no they didnt, just me the manager mike and the guy who books in all the jobs.

 

[tamz]

If you don't have a written contract you have what is called an implied contract.

 

[REDSAW]

bad news today, good omens for tomorrow. you wouldnt really want to work for prats like that would you?.
my brother in law went this route last year and won the case in court, well the employer did not attend and so was awarded something like £8k.
he is still waiting for the settlement 9 months on.?.+8% per week interest!!!!.

p.s get yourself a tidy little berlingo 54 plate for £1.500 of the 'bay' and save the rest for the future.

 

[southcoastboile]

has the dime bar given you all this in writing ?

he gave me the letter about the ladder incident and at the bottom it states "this is not a dissaplinary letter" but I asked for all of it in writing and he said he will post it to me, he just read a list off that he had in his hand of things I had done wrong.

 

[mfgs]

If you don't have a written contract you have what is called an implied contract.

Which is better if it goes to court.

 

[southcoastboile]

Thanks for all the messages everyone and for all the private ones, I have spoken with acas and they said write a letter to them within 5 days stating I think I have been unfairly dismissed. I have already typed it out, if anyones intrested I can try and post it?

cheers for all the support, I like everyone at my work I just hate this manager bloke same as everyone else, I realy dont want to work for him again and aparantly when they recieve my letter they have no option but to hold a meeting with me. They may choose to reinstate my position at the company which I am hoping wont happen.

 

[Puddle]

Funny enough,just heard on the radio, 30,000 kids a year,under 5,go to hospital due to falling down stairs,guess it's 30,001 now :dizzy2:,obviously some are unfortunate accidents but that leaves a lot of irresponsible parents

imho

 

[tamz]

Probably an implied one for you. A written one is more to protect the company. Something like their written terms and conditions.

 

[southcoastboile]

Funny enough,just heard on the radio, 30,000 kids a year,under 5,go to hospital due to falling down stairs,guess it's 30,001 now :dizzy2:,obviously some are unfortunate accidents but that leaves a lot of irresponsible parents

imho

I wonder how many of them were taken to hospital by parents with cut fingers

 

[quality]

Bad news there south coast, I have read the replies hence I have nothing to add but to wish you the best of luck in resolving the issue

 

[bantamgas]

Thanks for all the messages everyone and for all the private ones, I have spoken with acas and they said write a letter to them within 5 days stating I think I have been unfairly dismissed. I have already typed it out, if anyones intrested I can try and post it?

cheers for all the support, I like everyone at my work I just hate this manager bloke same as everyone else, I realy dont want to work for him again and aparantly when they recieve my letter they have no option but to hold a meeting with me. They may choose to reinstate my position at the company which I am hoping wont happen.

It may be worth trying to post your letter on here(hide your sensitive info) and you might get a bit more input on maybe if it could be phrased any better,you never know,there might actually be some bright sparks on here.
Tough situation to be stuck in mate,but if all is as you say,do them and do them hard,it seems like they dont have a leg to stand on.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

It may be worth trying to post your letter on here(hide your sensitive info) and you might get a bit more input on maybe if it could be phrased any better,you never know,there might actually be some bright sparks on here.
Tough situation to be stuck in mate,but if all is as you say,do them and do them hard,it seems like they dont have a leg to stand on.

no we are plumbers LOL

 

[buckley plumb]

i did a sub contract job once for a council and was sent to this house - you needed wellys in the house due to the scummy state it was in all the thread bare carpets were holed . i spilt one drop of dirty water on the stairs and they tried to claim .i would not have given that carpet to my dog. there are some terible people out there its a shame as it tarneshes the ones who are honest.

ant

 

[bantamgas]

no we are plumbers LOL

I did try to put a smiley in there but it kept jumping to the wrong spot,I knew someone would pick up on that.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

I did try to put a smiley in there but it kept jumping to the wrong spot,I knew someone would pick up on that.

yea i know just thought south coast could do with a laugh

 

[bantamgas]

yea i know just thought south coast could do with a laugh

I'm not having a pop at you you or the site mate.......its all the fault of Carlsberg Export.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

I'm not having a pop at you you or the site mate.......its all the fault of Carlsberg Export.

lol i blame mine on carling or ncb ale

 

[WHPES]

They can't just fire you without an investigation and due procedure.

The homeowner was responsible for the condition of the ladders. Granted you were careless in leaving it down but I would think it's only a minor misdemeanour.

You could speak to a solicitor - there are plenty about doing no-win-no-fees for such cases.

However if the company is on the verge of going into liquidation and in credit, there may well not be any money available if you win the case, as the secured creditors are the first in line to any remaning assets.

 

[GrahamM]

Withe regard to the loft ladder.

I have been told by companies I have worked for in past, this is the responsibility of the tenant and technically I should not even be putting it down/up. If the tenant gets injured pulling the ladder down that's ok. If I were to get injured pulling down the ladder it is my fault and should not be doing it in first place.

 

[tamz]

WHPES raised a good point here about liquidation. If it happens, no matter what the outcome of any tribunal you are on to plumbs.
Still worth chasing tho as it seems you have a valid case..

 

[kay-jay]

if anyones intrested I can try and post it?

They may choose to reinstate my position at the company which I am hoping wont happen.

post it if your comfortable with the idea.

you can pm me if you like, my wife has a law degree and we both used to work at c.a.b

they can't backtrack and reinstate you if you don't wish it. because they could just do things by the book this time and pick up on every tiny thing and issue warnings. its down to breach of trust which can work both ways, if they get the willies when your solicitors letter turns up and offer you the job back you are entitled to say no and pursue your claim for UD, when proven you still have the option of returning or looking for another job while still receiving full pay from them until any new employment commences. plus a pay out for the UD itself

 

[Barry98]

or we could have ukplumbersforum outing ? bit like the jollie boys in OFAH , ive suggested this a few times now only a matter of time before someone accepts 🙂

 

[ManchesterGas]

I know that you have a good case by the sounds of it but just be carefull, you could win and then they wind the company up and you still wont get a penny. May be worth a friendly chat with the directors.

 

[BLOD]

this place are looking for someone in Bournemouth

GAS SERVICE ENGINEER REQUIRED in Bournemouth | Building Services & Maintenance Jobs | Gumtree.com

 

[Howsie]

Do you have legal cover on your household insurance? If so, give them a call if they think you've a case(sounds like you have) then they'll appoint solicitors for you or pay reasonable cost toward one of your choosing. Once your old firm get a whif of the fact you're not going to take it lying down and you're not shelling out your own money I'd expect them to (at some point with the guidance of their solicitors) offer you a settlement.

This will be tax free.

You find another decent firm and move on. They realize that just because they are up the tree doesn't mean they can wee on the little people who get them there.

Good luck!

 

[Howsie]

No win no fee solicitors are scum IMHO.

 

[AWheating]

Do you have a copy of the company disciplinary procedure? you are entitled to have one. If they did not follow it to the letter and it does not comply to uk law then its unfair dismissal, they should also have a complaints/grevience proceedure you can use to appeal?

Every direct employee is entitled to a contract of employement and on requesting a copy they should supply you one. The contract should state dates, wages, hours, etc.... as standard.

Im guessing that if you were to take it further you will have some success, depends on if its worth it. If you are a member of a union then they will help you out.

 

[southcoastboile]

Thanks again everyone, loads of helpfull posts there, I have applied to the job offer on gumtree, thanks BLOD.
Ok well this is the letter I have replied with..............

I am writing to you regarding my recent dismissal.

I wish to appeal agianst the dismissal, based on the grounds that you have not followed the correct disciplinary procedure. I also believe that I have been unfairly dismissed.

I have not had a written, or verbal warning, nor was I given any documentation to support this.

When raising this issue with you I was told "I don't have to give you a written warning or a verbal warning as I am sacking you on the spot, due to gross misconduct".

The reasons you have given me verbaly from a list you had written up were as follows:

You stated that I had left a loft ladder down in a job I attended and the woman
(who lives a short distance from yourself and who is a friend of yours) then phoned up to say she had lifted her child over the stairgate and left him on the stairs, while she dealt with her other child who was crying. While she was attending to the crying child the 2 year old child apparently had climbed up the ladder and into the loft and she found him crawling around in there. Also, she had apparently hurt her finger when putting the loft ladder back up. You then said she had been "bending your ear" about what happened and subsequently you had to fit her a new boiler for free.

I appreciate I should not have left the ladder down. It was a genuine mistake, for which I have apologised.
However, I find it extremely hard to believe that a two year old had climbed up a ladder and in to a trap hatch that even I found difficult to get into. This also raises the question as to how to the child managed to do this unsupervised.
As for the lady cutting her finger, it is the customers responsibility to make sure her property is in good order and could be construed as her putting me in danger.
I also recieved a letter regarding this issue and was told that it was not a diciplinary letter.

The second reason you gave me, was that I didn't attend a callout.
I had a telephone call from a Nursing Home saying one of their commercial boilers had stopped working and they had no heating.
I explained to the customer that I was sorry but I would be unable to attend as I am not qualified to work on commercial boilers and I am only qualified to work on domestic boilers.
You then pulled me into the meeting room for a chat the next day and told me I must attend all callouts regardless of the situation. When I challenged this decision you told me to just attend anyway for the sole purpose of showing face. I agreed that I would then attend all callouts but may not be able to carry out the work.

Another reason you gave me for my dismissal, was that I attended a job to a service and didn't tell the office that there was a leak on the radiator tail.

I went to service a boiler and while checking all the radiators were working I found a leak on a tail to a radiator behind a cabinet. I telephoned the office and said I would be able to fix it but would need three hours and could you cancel some of my jobs as it was urgent. I was told that the jobs could not be cancelled and I would have to leave it.
I advised the customer it would be best to drain the system as it was a bad leak but the customer was an elderly person who needed heating and did not want this to happen. I then telephoned the office and said it was urgent as it was leaking and he will not let me drain the system. I asked if it could be booked in for me the following day to which I was told, "yes you can go in between jobs to do it". I asked what jobs I had on the next day and was given a list of jobs that would be difficult to complete within the working day as it was, let alone with this three hour job on top. I said "something needs to be done about it and I willl not have time. We need to get a sub contractor to do it if I can't, as it's urgent".
I was told to leave the job and the office would discuss it with the customer's Insurance company. I fail to see how I could have handeled the situation any better than I did.

The next reason you gave me for my dismissal, was that I had gone to a callout and left the mains isolated and 2 hot draw offs as there was a leak.

I cleared this with the customer and they said it was fine to leave it off untill our return visit. I instructed the Office the next day that we would need to go back and finish the job and that I had stopped a major leak in the meantime.

You then gave me another reason, which meant we had to do a recall on a job in Swanage. You stated that I had apparently turned a boiler off, as it was dangerous, when it was in fact safe.

I was called to a job where the boiler was going to lockout on fault code F1, which means there is a fault with the gas pressure or water pressure. The water pressure was correct, so I checked the gas pressure. The pressure coming into the property was fine but the pressure to the boiler was not. I concluded this was why it was going to lockout and making loud noises on full rate. I concluded the installation was unsafe and isolated it. You apparently got called back and it was found to be ok. I did not come to the same conclusion. It is possible that when testing, I had not screwed out the test nipple far enough, therefore getting a false reading but it made sense that the pipework was undersized due to the symptons the boiler was experiencing.
If I was wrong, it was a genuine mistake and I would rather be safe than sorry. I wasn't given the opportunity to attend the recall, so therefore, I don't know either way.

The final reason you gave me, was that I fitted a boiler and you had to go back that night to have a look and that I had left the gas off.

The reason I had left the gas off, was that I found a gas escape on the existing pipework, so found the installation to be unsafe. I issued a Warning Notice and left the gas turned off. You then went back and turned installation back on.
I questioned you on this, as you had brought it up as a reason to dismiss me. You said it was fine and that you had checked it. I believe this is not true.

To conclude this letter, I have given reasons as to why and how these situations have come about and feel I have worked to the best of my ability while working for PBS. I have been there for eight years under four different bosses and have never had a problem.

I understand the Company is suffering financially and feel I am being pushed out to avoid paying redundancys. I understand that other Engineers have also recently had warnings and have never received them before.

These were the only items mentioned at the meeting with Bernie also present. I was told that Mike would like to see me the day before I saw him and when I phoned Mike and asked what it was about, he declined to comment. I went in at my usual time and was sacked straight away.

I look forward to your reply regarding this matter.

Yours sincerely

 

[southcoastboile]

Above is the letter, only problem is I have 5 days to hand this to them, they are not obligated to send me the reasons they sacked me through the post in a certian time limit, so I can hand this in to them, they can read it and make up new reasons as its only verbal, I had no whitnesses. Thats my worry anyway.

 

[goz666]

I used to be a shop steward for many years mate and after reading all the replies and your letter, my input would be wasted because others have already given you great advice. I believe as a company they should be more worried than you are at the moment, it's a terrible feeling being sacked, I've seen a few lads sacked some for nothing, but because the company followed procedure they got away with it.

I did a course once with a guy called Dennis Smith of The Industrial Society, he was a former Ford Halewood works convenor who sat on many industrial tribunals and his advice was always 1.procedure 2.Procedure 3.Procedure. If they have one and don't stick to it, like others have said they will lose anyway. Best of luck finding work !!

 

[Howsie]

Get a solicitor to write it for you. They know what you should and shouldn't put down in writing.

 

[kay-jay]

Don't send that letter. The content above is for discussion with your solicitor. Or most c.a.b have a tribunal rep. To employer simply inform them that you are pursuing a legal claim for unfair dismissal. Due to them not following legal procedures. Do not show them your hand!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[WHPES]

Yes, if you are serious about pursuing the case, discuss with a solicitor before sending anything out.

If you decide its not worth the effort then its up to you.

From the sounds of it (gut feeling not any professional opinion), you maybe are better off out of those circumstances and they might actually have done you a favour.

 

[ecowarm]

Also this is an open forum, best discussed in the arms IMO

That letter should be "Private and confidencial" if it got out you have discussed it in an open forum if it ended in court it would not help your case IMO

 

[Guest123]

Sorry to hear this about you.
Gather as much evidence as you can supporting your actions in the complaints he's made against you and if possible get a few witnesses that will back you up and take him and the company to a tribunal for either unfair or constructive dismissal. Go see a lawyer about this as soon as possible, the first meeting is free.

 

[jase158]

Sorry to hear your news mate,

I haven't read all the posts as quite long, so sorry if i repeat anything,

But have you taken a step back and saw it from there point of view?

Firstly, the first instance with the ladder is a complaint from a customer, the boss can not ignore it, even if he doesnt agree with it.
Secondly, If everyone turned around and said they weren't going to do jobs, then he wouldn't get any jobs done.
Thirdly the call backs he can not ignore these as he has a company to run, if they get a bad reputation then the company will go completely bust.

However these are not my thoughts, I nearly always leave the ladder up, especially if I had to put it up and move the towels out of the airing cupboard.

It sounds to me like he is a very grumpy bloke who takes life too seriously. But personal feelings have to be disregarded.

At the end of the day it is a case of his word against yours, the customers are very unlikely to get involved. If he can prove that he has given you plenty of warnings, plenty of chances to sort things out, then you haven't got a chance. get yourself a good lawyer and he will have to answer a lot of questions, but to be honest, if they are shutting in April, won't they just close the company and go bust and open a new one under a new name and you wont have a leg to stand on then.

Basically is it really worth it?

 

[southcoastboile]

Thanks KJ, I think mabee you are right and I shouldn't show my hand, mabee I should just keep it short and say the basics, i.e I am disputing the descision due to it being unfair and the reasons for my dismissal are unjust, then when it goes to the next stage state my reasons as to why I feel it is unjust as I have done in the letter.

When I spoke to acas they told me to say I feel its wrong and write reasons to state why I have been unfairly dismissed like I have in the above letter. I realy need expert advice but the timescale I have to get this letter off is within 3 days so I dont realy have that option atm.

 

[Dannypipe]

I only read the first two pages. Sounds like your ex boss is a total **************************** (you can fill in the blanks).

I've got to add one thing though. A mate of mine (also a plumber) was fitting an unvented cylinder at home the other week. He went downstairs for a cuppa, and when he came back he found his kid (2 and a bit years old) in the loft!!

So she could possibly be telling the truth. Though its down to her to watch he kids while there is work being done in the house. You're the plumber not the nanny.

 

[ecowarm]

Send a letter saying you are apealling and a breif outline, requesting a meeting and you have the right to a witness a the meeting

 

[dontknowitall]

Sorry to hear of the news (I've been following this thread so far and read some of your letter).

I agree with those recent comments - don't send the letter as it is. You need to keep your ammunition close to your chest as it makes things more difficult for the other party to argue without too much time to think of other "stories" to strengthen their case. Best to get your solicitor/adviser to help you with what you should or should not send - in my opinion.

Ecowarm's post is extremely valid. Ask a Moderator to assist/edit your post if you can.

I hope you have matters cleared up soon.

 

[southcoastboile]

Sorry to hear your news mate,

I haven't read all the posts as quite long, so sorry if i repeat anything,

But have you taken a step back and saw it from there point of view?

Firstly, the first instance with the ladder is a complaint from a customer, the boss can not ignore it, even if he doesnt agree with it.
Secondly, If everyone turned around and said they weren't going to do jobs, then he wouldn't get any jobs done.
Thirdly the call backs he can not ignore these as he has a company to run, if they get a bad reputation then the company will go completely bust.

However these are not my thoughts, I nearly always leave the ladder up, especially if I had to put it up and move the towels out of the airing cupboard.

It sounds to me like he is a very grumpy bloke who takes life too seriously. But personal feelings have to be disregarded.

At the end of the day it is a case of his word against yours, the customers are very unlikely to get involved. If he can prove that he has given you plenty of warnings, plenty of chances to sort things out, then you haven't got a chance. get yourself a good lawyer and he will have to answer a lot of questions, but to be honest, if they are shutting in April, won't they just close the company and go bust and open a new one under a new name and you wont have a leg to stand on then.

Basically is it really worth it?

seriously? this must be easy to say from an outsiders point of view. I have worked my bum off for this company, made money week in week out, get on with the customers, some even ask specialy for me. Been there 8 years so you would think I have done something right in all that time. This is blaitantly unfair, anyway I am going to fight the decision as best I can. Think as I am the youngest they may see me as the easyest target. Little do they know!

 

[PlumbBobBob]

would you like this thread moved into the arms or gs only forum? pm me if you do

 

[tamz]

Keep your letter short and to the point. You should just be informing them you are appealing the decision.
It would be best if you can get a witness to accompany you but if the witness is an employee they may (for obvious reasons) be reluctant to do it and if they do they may not back you up if it came to the crunch. Most people won't put their job on the line to protect anyone so an independent witness may be best.
Your appeal probably won't alter their decision unless they realise they have fkd up on their handling of it.
Btw the appeal should be heard by persons of higher authority so you may get to meet the directors.
In the meantime move on and deal with it as it comes.

 

[southcoastboile]

Keep your letter short and to the point. You should just be informing them you are appealing the decision.
It would be best if you can get a witness to accompany you but if the witness is an employee they may (for obvious reasons) be reluctant to do it and if they do they may not back you up if it came to the crunch. Most people won't put their job on the line to protect anyone so an independent witness may be best.
Your appeal probably won't alter their decision unless they realise they have fkd up on their handling of it.
Btw the appeal should be heard by persons of higher authority so you may get to meet the directors.
In the meantime move on and deal with it as it comes.

I dont think i'm allowed an independant whitness at the meeting, only an employee or if I was a member of a union I could have a union rep with me. The guy I work with has said he will come to the meeting with me and take notes. He thinks the boss is out of order as well. Although its obvious he will not want to risk his job. Seems unfair that you have to have an employee at the meeting. I think it's a good idea to keep it short and informative for now like you say and then bring the issues up at the meeting.

 

[Mike Jackson]

It can only be a colleague or a trade union rep at the meeting unfortunately.

 

[ecowarm]

You may take a familly member with you, have a look here Handling disciplinary actions : Directgov - Employment good info

 

[kay-jay]

just to reiterate, don't under any circumstances either in a letter or at your interview - detail what grounds you are seeking unfair dismissal on. just tell them you are pursuing the claim by legal means. let them do the worrying, or if they think they have acted correctly and its just sour grapes they won't do anything, whereas if you detail all the aspects of your claim they can prepare a defense.

speak to a tribunal rep at c.a.b or ring a solicitor. be aware however that you are on a time limit to formally submit an application/notification for unfair dismissal to acas and the court (4 weeks from termination i think, but check this) don't panic - your case doesn't need to be ready at this time just the submission of the request.

 

[southcoastboile]

just to reiterate, don't under any circumstances either in a letter or at your interview - detail what grounds you are seeking unfair dismissal on. just tell them you are pursuing the claim by legal means. let them do the worrying, or if they think they have acted correctly and its just sour grapes they won't do anything, whereas if you detail all the aspects of your claim they can prepare a defense.

speak to a tribunal rep at c.a.b or ring a solicitor. be aware however that you are on a time limit to formally submit an application/notification for unfair dismissal to acas and the court (4 weeks from termination i think, but check this) don't panic - your case doesn't need to be ready at this time just the submission of the request.

Thanks kayjay, I have been up since 6 because I was thinking about it and couldn't sleep, I've literaly just prepared my case and I was going to mention all the things that I disagree with at the meeting but from what you said it's best not to do that. If thats the case (fully understand your point) what can I actuly say at the meeting? if he askes me about issues do I then defend myself or how do I handle it? I am going to phone CAB today and book an appointment.

 

[southcoastboile]

You may take a familly member with you, have a look here Handling disciplinary actions : Directgov - Employment good info

Thanks, I have been reading from that website all morning, found some usefull things on there

 

[ecowarm]

Hopefully the CAB will have someone available, the meeting can be adjurned untill you have some one to represent you

 

[kay-jay]

Say nothing more than you are making a claim for UD. If they keep asking for details just say your legal representative Will be dealing with all the install and outs and Will be in touch shortly. State you have nothing more to say. Meeting may well be hard and emotional remember do not get drawn into arguments or say anything in heat of the moment. You are there to hear what they say only. Anything they want from you the stock answer is my legal rep Will be in touch shortly.
If they ask who your legal rep is....they Will be in touch with you shortly when it has been decided exactly who Will be taking the case on.
Give em nowt. Hear them out and record the interview on a dictaphone

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[WHPES]

Presumably your solicitor could be present at the meeting?

 

[southcoastboile]

Say nothing more than you are making a claim for UD. If they keep asking for details just say your legal representative Will be dealing with all the install and outs and Will be in touch shortly. State you have nothing more to say. Meeting may well be hard and emotional remember do not get drawn into arguments or say anything in heat of the moment. You are there to hear what they say only. Anything they want from you the stock answer is my legal rep Will be in touch shortly.
If they ask who your legal rep is....they Will be in touch with you shortly when it has been decided exactly who Will be taking the case on.
Give em nowt. Hear them out and record the interview on a dictaphone

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Sounds like realy good advice m8, thanks

 

[southcoastboile]

Presumably your solicitor could be present at the meeting?

From what I understand you can't even take a solicitor in the meeting or a family MEMBER

 

[southcoastboile]

Thanks again everyone, loads of helpfull posts there, I have applied to the job offer on gumtree, thanks BLOD.
Ok well this is the letter I have replied with..............

I am writing to you regarding my recent dismissal.

I wish to appeal agianst the dismissal, based on the grounds that you have not followed the correct disciplinary procedure. I also believe that I have been unfairly dismissed.

I have not had a written, or verbal warning, nor was I given any documentation to support this.

When raising this issue with you I was told "I don't have to give you a written warning or a verbal warning as I am sacking you on the spot, due to gross misconduct".

The reasons you have given me verbaly from a list you had written up were as follows:

You stated that I had left a loft ladder down in a job I attended and the woman
(who lives a short distance from yourself and who is a friend of yours) then phoned up to say she had lifted her child over the stairgate and left him on the stairs, while she dealt with her other child who was crying. While she was attending to the crying child the 2 year old child apparently had climbed up the ladder and into the loft and she found him crawling around in there. Also, she had apparently hurt her finger when putting the loft ladder back up. You then said she had been "bending your ear" about what happened and subsequently you had to fit her a new boiler for free.

I appreciate I should not have left the ladder down. It was a genuine mistake, for which I have apologised.
However, I find it extremely hard to believe that a two year old had climbed up a ladder and in to a trap hatch that even I found difficult to get into. This also raises the question as to how to the child managed to do this unsupervised.
As for the lady cutting her finger, it is the customers responsibility to make sure her property is in good order and could be construed as her putting me in danger.
I also recieved a letter regarding this issue and was told that it was not a diciplinary letter.

The second reason you gave me, was that I didn't attend a callout.
I had a telephone call from a Nursing Home saying one of their commercial boilers had stopped working and they had no heating.
I explained to the customer that I was sorry but I would be unable to attend as I am not qualified to work on commercial boilers and I am only qualified to work on domestic boilers.
You then pulled me into the meeting room for a chat the next day and told me I must attend all callouts regardless of the situation. When I challenged this decision you told me to just attend anyway for the sole purpose of showing face. I agreed that I would then attend all callouts but may not be able to carry out the work.

Another reason you gave me for my dismissal, was that I attended a job to a service and didn't tell the office that there was a leak on the radiator tail.

I went to service a boiler and while checking all the radiators were working I found a leak on a tail to a radiator behind a cabinet. I telephoned the office and said I would be able to fix it but would need three hours and could you cancel some of my jobs as it was urgent. I was told that the jobs could not be cancelled and I would have to leave it.
I advised the customer it would be best to drain the system as it was a bad leak but the customer was an elderly person who needed heating and did not want this to happen. I then telephoned the office and said it was urgent as it was leaking and he will not let me drain the system. I asked if it could be booked in for me the following day to which I was told, "yes you can go in between jobs to do it". I asked what jobs I had on the next day and was given a list of jobs that would be difficult to complete within the working day as it was, let alone with this three hour job on top. I said "something needs to be done about it and I willl not have time. We need to get a sub contractor to do it if I can't, as it's urgent".
I was told to leave the job and the office would discuss it with the customer's Insurance company. I fail to see how I could have handeled the situation any better than I did.

The next reason you gave me for my dismissal, was that I had gone to a callout and left the mains isolated and 2 hot draw offs as there was a leak.

I cleared this with the customer and they said it was fine to leave it off untill our return visit. I instructed the Office the next day that we would need to go back and finish the job and that I had stopped a major leak in the meantime.

You then gave me another reason, which meant we had to do a recall on a job in Swanage. You stated that I had apparently turned a boiler off, as it was dangerous, when it was in fact safe.

I was called to a job where the boiler was going to lockout on fault code F1, which means there is a fault with the gas pressure or water pressure. The water pressure was correct, so I checked the gas pressure. The pressure coming into the property was fine but the pressure to the boiler was not. I concluded this was why it was going to lockout and making loud noises on full rate. I concluded the installation was unsafe and isolated it. You apparently got called back and it was found to be ok. I did not come to the same conclusion. It is possible that when testing, I had not screwed out the test nipple far enough, therefore getting a false reading but it made sense that the pipework was undersized due to the symptons the boiler was experiencing.
If I was wrong, it was a genuine mistake and I would rather be safe than sorry. I wasn't given the opportunity to attend the recall, so therefore, I don't know either way.

The final reason you gave me, was that I fitted a boiler and you had to go back that night to have a look and that I had left the gas off.

The reason I had left the gas off, was that I found a gas escape on the existing pipework, so found the installation to be unsafe. I issued a Warning Notice and left the gas turned off. You then went back and turned installation back on.
I questioned you on this, as you had brought it up as a reason to dismiss me. You said it was fine and that you had checked it. I believe this is not true.

To conclude this letter, I have given reasons as to why and how these situations have come about and feel I have worked to the best of my ability while working for PBS. I have been there for eight years under four different bosses and have never had a problem.

I understand the Company is suffering financially and feel I am being pushed out to avoid paying redundancys. I understand that other Engineers have also recently had warnings and have never received them before.

These were the only items mentioned at the meeting with Bernie also present. I was told that Mike would like to see me the day before I saw him and when I phoned Mike and asked what it was about, he declined to comment. I went in at my usual time and was sacked straight away.

I look forward to your reply regarding this matter.

Yours sincerely

Now I have had a bit of advice would it be possible for admin to delete this letter as I wouldn't want certian pple seeing it?

 

[PlumbersMate]

best of luck to you mate

 

[southcoastboile]

Bit of good news, ive got 3 jobs booked in and a days work job to quote this week, got a llgs and remove and refix towel rail, a hob to fit, a stopcock to change and the quote is to move a rad from one side of a room to another concrete floor so fairly big job. Hopefully I win that. All of them are for different people so things are kindov looking up.

 

[PlumbersMate]

that was quick! lol i want same advertising as you

 

[southcoastboile]

that was quick! lol i want same advertising as you

I know! got lucky, 2 of them from delivering leaflets, 1 from a website i signed up 2, and another from a bloke i met outside a post office. Going out to get a van tomorrow, that will cheer me up a bit :tongue3:

 

[cr0ft]

There is definitely work out there mate and all the signs at my end are that being self-employed is starting to pick up. Even though it probably doesn't feel like it now, this may well end up being a blessing in disguise 🙂 Best of luck with your UD case and keep your head up!

 

[southcoastboile]

There is definitely work out there mate and all the signs at my end are that being self-employed is starting to pick up. Even though it probably doesn't feel like it now, this may well end up being a blessing in disguise 🙂 Best of luck with your UD case and keep your head up!

Thanks, I was thinking that, I just got myself a new job as well, was due to start tomorrow but I have lost it before I started, changed my voicemail to a company one for myself to potential customers. The guy who gave me the job heared my voicemail and said he was not comfortable with me doing private work on weekends which is totaly understandable. Got another job from a plumber mate of mine today, breakdown which I fixed (loose connection) and he said he has another one for me in the week. Onwards and upwards.

 

[southcoastboile]

Got a new job, start tuesday, only problem is the private work seems to have realy picked up, im never normaly this busy. Did 4 jobs and a quote for a days work, think I will win that, got a hob install Friday, a powerflush monday and a service wednesday. I can start tuesday at this new job so powerflush is ok but service will have to be moved if customer will agree. Realy don't know what to do now, im definitly in 2 minds. The new employer has told me they want someone permanant, not someone who will leave and go self employed. I'm not the type of person to stitch him up and leave him if I get busy and I would never steal work or anything like that but not sure if there is a fair way of doing this. I have sugested I sign a contact for a minimum working period with him, he seemed to think taht was ok. I have also thought mabee I could I sign a contract saying if I decide to leave I will give a long notice period so he has time to replace me. Realy hard descision

 

[grahamgas]

If it was me, once bitten twice shy.
What is to say that you dont find yourself in the same siuation next year, warnings for petty things.
If you are your own boss, then it is only you that can give yourself a rollicking.

IMO, stay self employed, if you can manage and really target your ex employers customer base. Stuff the not stealling work ethic

 

[villa_tom]

Got a new job, start tuesday, only problem is the private work seems to have realy picked up, im never normaly this busy. Did 4 jobs and a quote for a days work, think I will win that, got a hob install Friday, a powerflush monday and a service wednesday. I can start tuesday at this new job so powerflush is ok but service will have to be moved if customer will agree. Realy don't know what to do now, im definitly in 2 minds. The new employer has told me they want someone permanant, not someone who will leave and go self employed. I'm not the type of person to stitch him up and leave him if I get busy and I would never steal work or anything like that but not sure if there is a fair way of doing this. I have sugested I sign a contact for a minimum working period with him, he seemed to think taht was ok. I have also thought mabee I could I sign a contract saying if I decide to leave I will give a long notice period so he has time to replace me. Realy hard descision

I hear what your saying mate, but do you really think any employer really gives a damn if he needed to get rid of you? If I where you I'd take the job and fit your own work in around it. If your private work picks up enough to leave then just leave. I am self employed and contract mon-fri and fit my own stuff in around that, it works for me but not for others. But if I had loads of my own work I'd quite easily just do that and walk away from my contract work.
obviously it's easier to walk away from contract work than a normal job, but you've got to look after yourself.
good luck anyway

Ps I've not forgotten about resizing those Worcester junior help sheets, ive just not had time but I'll get em to you as soon as I can

 

[southcoastboile]

I hear what your saying mate, but do you really think any employer really gives a damn if he needed to get rid of you? If I where you I'd take the job and fit your own work in around it. If your private work picks up enough to leave then just leave. I am self employed and contract mon-fri and fit my own stuff in around that, it works for me but not for others. But if I had loads of my own work I'd quite easily just do that and walk away from my contract work.
obviously it's easier to walk away from contract work than a normal job, but you've got to look after yourself.
good luck anyway

Ps I've not forgotten about resizing those Worcester junior help sheets, ive just not had time but I'll get em to you as soon as I can

I think I will take the job and see what happens, thanks Tom, I assumed you couldn't get them any bigger but theres no rush m8, nice 1 tho.

 

[Nostrum]

4 or 5 days work in the scheme of things isn't enough to persuade me to reject a decent job for a fair pay in this climate. By the time you've bought van, all the insurances, gassafe, etc your a good few grand down before you start and competing against a lot of people in a similar position (forced into self employment because of lack of jobs and companies going under)

Personally I would take the job as a quick fix to the issue, if you want to go self employed plan it properly, buy everything you need whilst your on the books and then go for it when you think the time is right. I'm not saying see this bloke over, but consider your options when your in a better position.

 

[southcoastboile]

4 or 5 days work in the scheme of things isn't enough to persuade me to reject a decent job for a fair pay in this climate. By the time you've bought van, all the insurances, gassafe, etc your a good few grand down before you start and competing against a lot of people in a similar position (forced into self employment because of lack of jobs and companies going under)

Personally I would take the job as a quick fix to the issue, if you want to go self employed plan it properly, buy everything you need whilst your on the books and then go for it when you think the time is right. I'm not saying see this bloke over, but consider your options when your in a better position.

Ive got a van, all the tools, anton v2, powerflush machine, public liability and gs in my name, I know what you are saying though, even with all this its still a big risk to not have a steady income.

 

[Nostrum]

Nothing to stop you trying to find some contract work which would give you a good base to work off, then start getting your own work in between?

 

[southcoastboile]

Nothing to stop you trying to find some contract work which would give you a good base to work off, then start getting your own work in between?

That sounds easyer said then done, theres nothing like that on the job centre site, where would you pick up that kind of work?

 

[tamz]

Definately not in the job centre.

 

[Nostrum]

More of a case of who you know rather than what you know. I'm in the same position as you actually, redundant. I have been self employed in the past and knew that doing it all over again at this moment in time is a gamble I can't afford to take. I'm in the process of moving toward renewable's because down in the south west there seems to be more job oppurtunities for this market than domestic heating engineers.

Contract work is hard to come by and a lot of jobs don't even get advertised around here as it is so easy to pick up engineers through word and mouth. Just get yourself known if your not already anyway, try and keep an ear out for what's going on locally and who's running what contracts. Don't be afraid to send some enquires out as a lot of employers see proactive as a good thing rather than a nuisance.

It's all a lot easier when you have a steady income coming in and its not essential to survive, when the moneys not coming in I find it a lot harder to think about what to do next.

 

[REDSAW]

It's all a lot easier when you have a steady income coming in and its not essential to survive, when the moneys not coming in I find it a lot harder to think about what to do next.

not just me then!.

 

[PlumbersMate]

if someone offered me a job on the cards right now i would jump at the chance, AND i am busy. Nothing can beat knowing you can go work every day and get paid every week IMO

 

[southcoastboile]

Just thought id update this post incase anyone was intrested, company I got sacked from offered me a £600 payout to which I refused, wouldnt up thier offer so went through court proceedings, in the meantime they have gone bust so I got nothing but got a new job about 5 days after getting sacked, have been there around 2, 3 months, am now going on my own, have just got 60 llgs and services to do and getting busier all the time so I think in a way it was a blessing in disguise

 

[Leo21]

That's how. Became self employed, good luck.