Central Heating Zones - New & Replacement Systems

[rodders]

According to the Domestic Building Compliance Guide (2010 with 2011 amendments) page 22 it states:

"Dwellings with a total usable floor area up to 150m2 should be divided into at least two space heating zones with independant temperture control, one of which is assigned to the living area."

How are you guys installing these systems? For a combi do you need a one or two channel programmer (it says temp control not time control?). I take it you need two flows from the boiler (will a three port valve do or do you need 2 x 2 port vavles?) and do you need 2 returns (to stop reverse cirulation?) Do you fit check valves to stop reverse cirulation too? Does this cause problems draining down? What about the extra cost to the customer?

As an apprentice, I worked for a big company and we never fitted systems like this but now I'm working for myself I want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly.

Cheers

 

[diamondgas]

Hi rodders 🙂 2 zones on and 's'plan 3+ on an 's'plan+ i think you call it 🙂 Individual temp control can be room stats although the whole of the heating still needs to be timed! Regards the return it's best to common the circuits before joining together I'd say 🙂

That's my opinion though and there are plenty more avid installers with more experience who could better advise from experience 🙂

 

[rodders]

Cheers for the reply, lets say its a combi system, how do you split the 2 zones for the heating (upstairs and downstairs obviously) but how do you do it? 2 port valves? One on the upstairs flow and one on the downstairs? Where would you site these valves? Under the boiler? I've never seen this out on site and as an apprentice I never fitted combi heating systems this way.

Lets say you got a combi, do you need 2 room stats (one upstairs and one downstairs if so where upstairs would you situate the room stat?) and a 1 channel programmer? Get sparky to wire it in?

Sorry for all the questions but I am struggling to visualise this system any one got some photos they dont mind sharing?

Thank you.

 

[diamondgas]

Turn it on it's head rodders, how would you pipe it and design it! I use to get out a pen and paper, in fact have done for my own home that's currently under refirb. Got 3 zones and hot water (4)!

 

[rodders]

Cheers did you use 2 port valves for the different flows? If so, were they postioned under the boiler ?

 

[Dotty]

Think simply Rodders. Where is the logical place to split the flows, an airing cupboard? Under the stairs? Possibly at the boiler? Where you split them is where you'd put your zone valves.

 

[diamondgas]

Cheers did you use 2 port valves for the different flows? If so, were they postioned under the boiler ?

Actually putting 28mm 2 port on 22 pipe Just to guarantee enough flow through 🙂 For my own they're going in the garage, along with the boiler and UV cylinder 🙂. Ease of access when they need repaired/replaced. Note I said when because they will as some time in the future! Place your valves wherever is the best place just make sure they're serviceable! Regards your returns the circuits do need to be commoned before branching back in! You can't just run one return willy nilly 🙂

 

[rodders]

Cheers for this,

for a combi just need a one channel programmer then?

(sorry for all questions lol)

 

[Dotty]

A channel per zone Dave.

 

[rodders]

I ask because it says

"into at least two space heating zones with independant temperture control"

and more than 150m2 it says time and temp control. So one channel?

 

[chris watkins]

Lets say you got a combi, do you need 2 room stats (one upstairs and one downstairs if so where upstairs would you situate the room stat?) and a 1 channel programmer?

rodders the reason they want to have the heating spilt up into the two zone it that there is some energy savings to be gained if the heating in the sleeping areas (bedrooms) of the house can be turned off when no body in these areas, which makes sense if you think about how most people use there houses (bedrooms only need heating when we get up & then again when we go to bed) (unless you want a quickly in the afternoon, ar' they were the days !) sorry, day dreaming again !! anyway this means that you do need time control as well as temp (part L does state this) the easy way to achieve this is to use a programmable room thermostat upstairs controlling a zone valve. You can do the same downstairs as well, easer to link these to 2 ports rather than a 3 port.
Do you know how a 2 port valve works with the micro switch ???

 

[AWheating]

if the property only has an upstairs bog them i would put the bathroom off the living zone.

 

[rodders]

I get the reason they require this to be done. I know how a 2 port zone valve works, but I wonder who actually does this? I been in hundreds of houses fitted loads of new and replacement systems and never seen it done.

What happens if someone wants a boiler replacement but just had new carpet and decorating and dont want all the boards up to fit an extra flow and return?

 

[rodders]

I get the reason they require this to be done. I know how a 2 port zone valve works, but I wonder who actually does this? I been in hundreds of houses fitted loads of new and replacement systems and never seen it done.

What happens if someone wants a boiler replacement but just had new carpet and decorating and dont want all the boards up to fit an extra flow and return?

Not to mention the extra cost of copper and fittings, labour and room stat etc.

I'm finding it hard to believe this is done but I don't know?!

 

[chris watkins]

What should be done (by law) & what is actually done are not necessarily the same thing (like driving a 70 on the motorways) but it does save a bit & if you register your installations under part L you are certifying that it is compliant ! As usual it boils down to wether you do it by the book or not, if only the law was enforced we would all be playing on a level field !!! Fat chance but we should be pushing for it. (plumbing registration by the back door)

 

[diamondgas]

I get the reason they require this to be done. I know how a 2 port zone valve works, but I wonder who actually does this? I been in hundreds of houses fitted loads of new and replacement systems and never seen it done.

What happens if someone wants a boiler replacement but just had new carpet and decorating and dont want all the boards up to fit an extra flow and return?

Never mind two zones there are plenty changeovers I come across without the required TRV's or temp control, haven't been flushed and the condensates dribble down the outside wall!!! Who polices building regs anyhoo's?

 

[rodders]

Never mind two zones there are plenty changeovers I come across without the required TRV's or temp control, haven't been flushed and the condensates dribble down the outside wall!!! Who polices building regs anyhoo's?

This is true. Always see no TRVs on new boilers etc,

As for who polices it, I guess building control officer?

 

[kozak1968]

Theres a morale issue here, what do you do if an old lady on a pension with no heating needs a new boiler. Do you tell her she needs all the controls to bring it up to part L or your not going to fit the boiler? Or just fit it and have a clear concience

 

[Koogatubac]

A very good point to prove, in a way they say its the installer to stress that these actions need to be done to comply with building regs. If they dont want it then really the boiler warrenty would be void since thats part of the benchmark... Hmm... But we all could do with a good payout

 

[diamondgas]

Theres a morale issue here, what do you do if an old lady on a pension with no heating needs a new boiler. Do you tell her she needs all the controls to bring it up to part L or your not going to fit the boiler? Or just fit it and have a clear concience

I totaly agree! In my opinion it's entirely up to the customer what they have or do not have in their homes! Who are we to tell them they MUST comply with building regulations? It is our job to inform them of new requirements and let them make the choice!

Are these regulations a MUST DO? Do we break any 'laws' if we do not comply with building regs? I do not know the answers, anyone know?

 

[dave1]

I was told as long as you put it in writing, and get home owner to sign stating they understand that there installation does not comply with regulations which you recommended then you are covered.

 

[diamondgas]

Okaydokey done a quick search and found this :

If a person carrying out building work breaks the Building Regulations, the local authority or another person may decide to take them to the magistrates' court where they could be fined up to 5000 for the contravention, and up to 50 for each day the contravention continues after conviction.

You can read more here [DLMURL="http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/property/building_regulations/9026.html"]How the Building Regulations are enforced and your right to appeal - Property...[/DLMURL]

 

[Koogatubac]

So are all you guys going to mention this say in your t&c to cover your back?

 

[diamondgas]

So are all you guys going to mention this say in your t&c to cover your back?

I wonder if it would "cover your back"?

It does mention that proceedings have to be taken within two years of the completion of the work! I have never known Local Authority Building Inspectors being requested to a boiler changeover! I'd imagine they are around on building sites though? 🙂

 

[phpaul]

i have in the past fitted a system in to a 3 story house each floor had a timer and stat easy

 

[stevetheplumber]

building inspectors will only attend a building on one condition and that is that some one is paying themso the chances of one ever checking something you've done is not worth worrying about
im certain these new regs are being brought in to keep trainers and controls companies in work each extra piece of cost that legislation adds to a job is money in the illegals pockets

 

[chris watkins]

I would like the law to be fully enforced, what is the point otherwise, when you have a BC officer who comes out after a customer pays £275 & says "I don't know anything about these unvented cylinders but if it hasn't blown up by now it must be all right" gives him a bit of paper & walks out !!!
I want to see people (customers & installers) being prosecuted where ever possible for non complaints of the building & for that matter the water regs as well. Why have I spent good time & money making sure I have the training & skills to comply when others don't & undercut me because they don't bother to upgrade heating systems for instants.
Lets try to get the law of the land fully enforced, it may be a way of getting the cowboys out or at least have a bit more of a level playing field !!

 

[stevetheplumber]

chris i agree completely but this is the problem of todays society so many laws are being flouted no one obeys any when you see burglars walking free despite having hundreds of previous convictions what chance is there of a crack down on builders and then theres politicians commiting fraud and paying the money back to avoid prosecution, the list is endless

 

[chris watkins]

Can't just throw our hands up in the air, otherwise we might end up with some people choosing not to obey any of our laws.
Got to complain, I will find out who best to & let who all know.
It might not be registration for plumbing but it is the only laws we have to prevent cowboy works, so it has got to be worth a try hasn't it ?????

 

[doitmyself]

I would like the law to be fully enforced, what is the point otherwise, when you have a BC officer who comes out after a customer pays £275 & says "I don't know anything about these unvented cylinders but if it hasn't blown up by now it must be all right" gives him a bit of paper & walks out !!!

I don't know if it's common throughout the USA, but I was recently reading an American site (Heating Help - Heating Systems ) and it would appear that in New York all heating work has to be pre-approved (e.g heat loss calculations etc) and the installation checked afterwards by independent inspectors. NO "self-certification".

There are also stringent rules about qualifications and training. One builder got done for using untrained and unqualified personnel to repair someone's chimney.

 

[chris watkins]

doitmyself it is done like that in most developed countries through out the world, apparently in this country it is to allow market forces & anti-bureaucracy to prevail, kind of tells you of the importance others place on it when the good old US of A has so stringent rules, a !!

 

[Leo21]

Iff all the building regs were rigidly enforced some people couldn't afford it. Meaning some of thework would be done illegally. So enforcing it to the letter would have the opposite effect than the desired one.

 

[AWheating]

unregistered gas engineers bearly get taken to court, so you will find it hard to find a installer getting done over a lack of trv's fitted. Right or wrong you have to try your best to earn a living and do the right thing while competing with those that dont in many walks of life.

 

[chris watkins]

How so Leo21 ??
If customer need work done they need it done !!! If they or others carry out the work & break the law they should be prosecuted shouldn't they ? just like anybody who breaks our rules. If you don't like the law (rules) then get them changed otherwise all I what is them obeyed by everybody !! is that so wrong ??
If you are a plumber / heating engineer it is in our interest isn't it ??

 

[Leo21]

Following the building regs to the letter may mean some people have no other option than to go the "cheap route" iff they can't afford it. ie cowboys or unregistered people working only for cash. In that situation isn't it better for a registered engineer to do a safe job ,that doesn't meet some of the criteria. Rather than having that bloke from the pub who,s got the escort van doing a dangerous job? And I'm only talking about perhaps not zoning or room stats. Not standard efficiency boilers. So there gas bill may be 5% higher. So what!

 

[chris watkins]

Oh, so you want to be an arbiter of the law then !! perhaps you feel it that although the law of the land is that we have a speed limit of 30 MPH in towns it really alt to be 40 - 45 for those people who can't or find it difficult driving at 30 ?? I am not having a go at you really, all I am saying is that you can't pick & chose. The law is the law & whoever breaks it should be prosecuted be they registered or not. Let the message go out that this these laws are out there & need to be obeyed by all & this would give us more work & we would be doing it right. If not, then change the law so we all know were we stand !!

 

[Leo21]

Since when has the law been the building regulations. Get over yourself.

 

[chris watkins]

ooooooo !!! hit a nerve have I ??
think you will find that a regulation is a statute i.e. law.

night, night Leo21

 

[Leo21]

Pompous twits always hit a nerve. Night night.

 

[stevetheplumber]

yep us have stringent zoning and building codes but they are mostly run by the mafia if you
got the money you've got the permits

 

[fuzzy]

i think the gains are minimal on a property under 150m2. as the gains IMO are insignificant i wouldnt think it would even cover the small installation cost for some time. Totally agree for larger properties

if all rads are sized correctly and trvs fitted i dont see how zoning on a small property would give any significant financial gain or comfort control

 

[fuzzy]

i was also told this decision was being reviewed, however i cannot confirm this

 

[diamondgas]

I didn't know this thread had taken off some, sheeeeeeeeeesh! I miss the good ones🙂

By-the-way, building regs are legal requirements and you can be prosecuted and fined if found out flaunting them! I agree with Chris that we should all abide by the legal requirements. The fact that it's down to the local authorities to enforce the regulations and someone has to pay for anything to be inspected means there's little chance of work ever being checked out! Self policing is the only way I see it being regulated which would mean some kind of means for reporting contraventions we may come across! Just don't see it happening alas !!🙂

 

[fuzzy]

could be a can of worms

 

[GasManMike]

I seem to vaguely remember being told that straight swaps eg combi for combi or conventional for conventional don't need zoning as long as the pipe work remains the same. But if you were to change a gravity system to a fully pumped system it would then need to be zoned in line with building regs. Is this right or Have I made it up?

Thanks.

 

[diamondgas]

Do a google on Part L mike! requirements for changeover may encourporate an exemption for zoning, would have to check it myself, but you are still rewuired to put TRV's, time clock and room thermostat ... 🙂

 

[rodders]

Hi everyone,

When I started this thread I never imagined it to get so much attention, but it seems everyone has their own view on it.

To settle this once and for all I have asked for professional clarification and will let you know as soon as I hear anything.

Thanks everyone,

Rodders

 

[fuzzy]

nice one mate

 

[doitmyself]

To settle this once and for all I have asked for professional clarification and will let you know as soon as I hear anything.

And every "professional" you ask will give a different answer.

 

[Hoof Hearted]

I have a large house and different rooms are required to be heated at different times of the day. I found a simple solution which has worked very well for me. Programmable TRV's: Salus Programmable TRV PH60 - Buy Plumbing Online

I bought 2 of these and they work just great. It gives me the complete flexibilty to heat my house efficiently

Just my tuppence worth

 

[rodders]

And every "professional" you ask will give a different answer.

Yeah but if a "professional" gives me an answer by email it will be far easier to defend myself incase building control want to take me to court etc...

Just trying to cover myself...

 

[doitmyself]

Yeah but if a "professional" gives me an answer by email it will be far easier to defend myself in case building control want to take me to court etc...

Now you are really opening a can of worms!

An email is unlikely to be accepted as evidence by the court, so you will have to ask the professional to appear in person (at your expense!).The qualifications and experience of the professional will immediately be questioned by BC's lawyer, who will produce his own "expert witness" to prove that your professional is talking through his hat.

 

[rodders]

Now you are really opening a can of worms!

An email is unlikely to be accepted as evidence by the court, so you will have to ask the professional to appear in person (at your expense!).The qualifications and experience of the professional will immediately be questioned by BC's lawyer, who will produce his own "expert witness" to prove that your professional is talking through his hat.

Sorry but you seem to misunderstand, I have gone to my local Building Control office & Department for Communities and Local Government to get a proper professional answer. I have not asked some random guy with a degree from Uni to back me up on an email in case I go to court.

 

[chris watkins]

Sorry rodders but you are mistaken if you think that your local BC office is likely to contain any expert's capable of giving you a professional answer, you obviously missed my post on one of our local ones who didn't even know what an un-vented hot water system was, or that it was covered by Part G, what hope then but if you what to know what is required read for yourself it is all in the Domestic Heating Compliance Guide.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf

 

[rodders]

Sorry rodders but you are mistaken if you think that your local BC office is likely to contain any expert's capable of giving you a professional answer, you obviously missed my post on one of our local ones who didn't even know what an un-vented hot water system was, or that it was covered by Part G, what hope then but if you what to know what is required read for yourself it is all in the Domestic Heating Compliance Guide.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf

Building control police the building regs so if they cant get an answer between them theres no chance they can take anyone to court to breaching the regs they cant tell you about.

As referenced, I understand what is required as per post #1.

But what I'm saying is who follows this on every job (some people may) and how can you compete with other companys that do not follow this.

 

[diamondgas]

Building control police the building regs so if they cant get an answer between them theres no chance they can take anyone to court to breaching the regs they cant tell you about.

As referenced, I understand what is required as per post #1.

But what I'm saying is who follows this on every job (some people may) and how can you compete with other companys that do not follow this.

In my view rodders the only place you'll have to conform would be building sites! That's the only place I can envisage Building Control Officers present, otherwise they're at yours or the customers request far as I can tell!

In answer to competing, you either lower your standards and ignore building regs or you sell the benefits of added control and let the customer choose who to believe and trust with the work they're wanting completed! End of the day it's their home we're being invited into and their choice as to the work carried out. If you're really concerned then draught up a disclaimer that the customer can sign that'll cover your butt 😀

 

[rodders]

Right, time to put this one to bed once and for all...

I spoke to a Building Control officer at the local council and they advised me for a definite answer I need to speak to the Department for Communities and Local Government.

I emailed the following to someone at Department for Communities and Local Government who was there to give advice on Part L.

I have a question regarding Part L & Domestic Building Services Guide.

If a boiler is being replaced (like for like i.e natural gas fuelled for natural gas fuelled, in England) in a domestic dwelling what are the requirements for zoning the central heating system?

Is it right that if the boiler is being replaced that the central heating needs to be separated into two different zones (1 zone upstairs & 1 zone downstairs).

Thank you,

(not the whole email but you get the drift...)

I then received a reply (this is not the full email...) from them stating;


When simply replacing a boiler, there is no requirement to upgrade the whole heating system to meet current standards. In general it is only the component being replaced that needs to comply.

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective. For example, there could be one room thermostat upstairs and one downstairs, or one could be in a lounge and the other in a home office.

There is further information in the Domestic Building Services Compliance Guide at www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf - see for example Supplementary Information on page 24.

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards

So finally I have an answer. No zones needed on a boiler change... and only need to put zones in a new heating system if cost effective.

So basically no need to zone off new system either really (unless greater than 150m2).

I find it surprising that no one had a definite answer everyone kind of guessing (it is complicated I know).

Now I'm sure some people will be sitting there thinking "I knew that anyway" well - I didn't.

Thank you for your time and interest!

 

[chris watkins]

rodders can I say a thank you, personally & I am sure on behalf of all interested parties. Now we all know so can stop this = :willy_nilly:

 

[rodders]

rodders can I say a thank you, personally & I am sure on behalf of all interested parties. Now we all know so can stop this = :willy_nilly:

No problem it's been a grey area for me for a while so I thought I would get a proper answer and stop guessing.

Thanks

 

[peteheat]

Well done Rodders,

We have similar regs in Ireland, to add to the confusion we also a grant in place for boiler upgrades, one of the terms is new boiler must have new controls as described here two zones and hot water basically a three zone system.

One of the requirements on the installer is to use 10m2 earth for bonding all pipework, the earth must run back to the board, of course most houses have 6m2 so installers used 6m2.

Not allowed re-work orders flying all over the country, as the contractor we must carry out any such work at our own expense it is not regarded as the customers fault, the contractor also gets penalty points for every mistake 12 points and your off the contractor list, you can appeal any points below is a guide of what is not accepted as grounds for appeal.

Unacceptable grounds for Appeal
Additional work will be completed to bring the installation to the required standard
Where reworks are identified then the contractor is required to undertake these reworks, and the applicable penalty points remain on the contractors’ profile. It is not a case of one sanction or the other, but rather both.
Do not agree with the requirements of the Technical Specification
Minor error that will not happen again
Homeowner did not want to undertake full specification of works, could not afford the extra works, did not want to upset the house further.

And they wonder why contractors are not happy with the scheme?

At least what you discovered makes sense, well done.

 

[diamondgas]

Does that go for TRV's not required too rodders and/or timer/thermostat? That also adds a lot of time and money to a job if not required? Just curious but now that you're pals with these folk maybe they'd clarify that one too 🙂

 

[rodders]

Does that go for TRV's not required too rodders and/or timer/thermostat? That also adds a lot of time and money to a job if not required? Just curious but now that you're pals with these folk maybe they'd clarify that one too 🙂

I'd say you would need timer/thermostat to provide boiler interlock and to make the boiler (the component being replaced) comply with the regs. As with TRVs i'd fit them as part of the job, but from the response I got I'd say you have a good case if you say the customer didn't want TRVs due to the extra cost.

 

[diamondgas]

I'd say you would need timer/thermostat to provide boiler interlock and to make the boiler (the component being replaced) comply with the regs. As with TRVs i'd fit them as part of the job, but from the response I got I'd say you have a good case if you say the customer didn't want TRVs due to the extra cost.

I'd agree with you. Its more of a "best practice" approach. Make the customer aware of the changes in requirements and allowing them the choices that they may not have otherwise been aware of 🙂 End of the day it makes for more profit installing the additional controls so I'd say in the installers interest to promote them! IMO 🙂

 

[peteheat]

I'd agree with you. Its more of a "best practice" approach. Make the customer aware of the changes in requirements and allowing them the choices that they may not have otherwise been aware of 🙂 End of the day it makes for more profit installing the additional controls so I'd say in the installers interest to promote them! IMO 🙂

Not just profits, easy to work controls will save the customer money and they will have a more comfortable home, no more switching off radiators in rooms they aren't using causing draughts etc.

If you get the first customer in a mature housing estate where the neighbours talk to each other your customer can bring you a lot more business based on their satisfaction with the job.

Instead of the inconvenience of having to replace the boiler they have improved their home with an upgraded more efficient heating system, ergo value for money.

 

[Foodface]

Wow, just read this thread as I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" and they just looked at me as if I was trying to fill my boots on the job. I then asked if any other of my fellow plumbing professionals had mentioned the issue of zoning and I was told no.

The house is a small two up two down and I'm going to submit the quote with the zoning included, cos I agree with Chris but having missed out on a few big jobs due to my desire to do everything properly I am now worried that all my efforts are in vain because when it comes down to it money talks and there are too many people out there doing what they like in order to make money. I do a lot of boiler servicing and quite frankly the standard of plumbing in the area I live in is pretty poor, limited boiler/heating controls and shoddy practice, which concerns me.

Rodders I commend your resolve for clearing the issue up too.

 

[chris watkins]

Wow, just read this thread as I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" and they just looked at me as if I was trying to fill my boots on the job. I then asked if any other of my fellow plumbing professionals had mentioned the issue of zoning and I was told no.

The house is a small two up two down and I'm going to submit the quote with the zoning included, cos I agree with Chris but having missed out on a few big jobs due to my desire to do everything properly I am now worried that all my efforts are in vain because when it comes down to it money talks and there are too many people out there doing what they like in order to make money. I do a lot of boiler servicing and quite frankly the standard of plumbing in the area I live in is pretty poor, limited boiler/heating controls and shoddy practice, which concerns me.

Rodders I commend your resolve for clearing the issue up too.

Just a quick one FF. The VAT for heating controls is charged at 5% which can really help sell the extra controls to custards.

 

[Foodface]

Cheers Chris, this quote is becoming problematic. What I don't understand is that if the industry knew this change in legislation was coming then why haven't the boiler manufacturers developed integrated zoning options and controls as part of the boiler design, to save all the messing about. I was wanting to put in a RF programmer and stat, only to then read that this particular brands RF stat and receivers only work in pairs which means more money more messing about and more unhappy clients.

The zoning options for this install have already added 240 to the price of the job and I've not even started yet, plus it'll need wiring in by someone part p registered.

They are going to think I'm taking the mickey when they see the figures.

 

[peteheat]

Two quotes for the same job, one includes zoning etc to regulations and common sense, second is for bog standard install.

When surveying the job I discuss the zoning with the customer so it can save time typing for quote one, just head it recommended installation as discussed, quote two basic installation not to recommended standard as discussed.

The choice is now up to the customer, the difference is job 1 they will thank you for the savings and comfort levels the new system brings them, job 2 they can never say you didn't offer the proper job, if you have time quote 3 can be retrofit of heating controls to bring the system up t standard next year.

 

[Foodface]

Yeah that's what I've decided on, I'm going to submit the quote without and then with. I've estimated it'll cost an additional 600 ish to zone the system (not including electrical labour) and I'm going to stress the regs and importance of zoning in the quote, but my main worry is that the chances are that someone is gonna just undercut me by not mentioning the zoning issue.

I hope I get the job as I need the money big time.

 

[chris watkins]

Yeah that's what I've decided on, I'm going to submit the quote without and then with. I've estimated it'll cost an additional 600 ish to zone the system (not including electrical labour) and I'm going to stress the regs and importance of zoning in the quote, but my main worry is that the chances are that someone is gonna just undercut me by not mentioning the zoning issue.

I hope I get the job as I need the money big time.

Just make sure that you have it in writing that you explained to them the requirements under part L for full controls & that due to the costs they have chosen not to have this work carried out. They are the one's breaking the Law but you as an expert must be seen to be informing them of there duty's under the Law.

 

[Foodface]

I've submitted it now (took me all morning), explained the need for Part L and how much I estimate it would cost extra. The quote was roughly 3,500 without as there is no existing heating system in the property so it would push it well in 4,000 mark. If they opt not too then I'll get it in writing on a pre job agreement, with a signature. It's tricky this stuff, especially considering the extra wiring involved (I somehow doubt customers will be willing to pay 1000 plus for all singing and dancing wireless zone rad valves). Genuinely just wish the manufacturers would simplify the problem for us all, sooner rather than later.

 

[chris watkins]

(I somehow doubt customers will be willing to pay 1000 plus for all singing and dancing wireless zone rad valves). Genuinely just wish the manufacturers would simplify the problem for us all, sooner rather than later.

Sorry but don't understand why you need a sing / dancing system & can't see how the manufacturer could make things any simpler, we already have plug & play controls systems.

 

[Foodface]

I'm not saying you need an all dancing system, just saying that it's more attractive to fit a wireless system when you are not a qualified electrician (which many people aren't).

Personally I think the manufacturers could integrate zoning valves into the boilers and make the "plug and play" options more assessable for the new regulations. As previously explained that some of the plug and play devices only come in pairs, which means you would have to buy two sets of controllers/receivers (or more) to zone. Just saying they could make it easier and more assessable which would also cut down the task of getting the customers on board, as the they would have no option if everything was integrated into the boiler already.

Just my opinion.

 

[chris watkins]

Most of us are not qualified electrician but have had training & would say most are competent to work on heating control systems. Can I suggest the Honeywell 1day training course & some reading. An understanding of electrical control systems is now a very important part of any heating engineer work nowday's & it is only going to get more complex with time.

P.S. some boiler manufactures have incorporated controls within there system boilers but this has not proven popular due to the increase in pipework required & the in-flexibility of system design.
In this game things that appear to be simple rarely are, which may be a good thing for those that know & a bad thing for those that don't.

 

[peteheat]

If the boiler manufacturers build in the zoning systems it makes their product less flexible, it also leads to the installer and home owner being held to ransom by the manufacturers system should it break down or have faults in the software.

We did use a boiler where all controls were managed by the boiler motherboard, the theory was great in reality it was a disaster, it took them 5 years to iron out most of the software problems (an ongoing project).

As far as anyone who used the system is concerned their is nothing like a boiler that does its job of producing the heat and we remain in control of how the heat is distributed, it is much easier to replace a faulty programmer even for another make / model than it is to change out the boiler.

It is easier for all concerned to be able to add or subtract zone valves, TRV's, thermostats as needed by each individual job instead of trying to make a pre-set / pre-programmed boiler do all the jobs needed some of which it may not have been designed to do.

 

[doitmyself]

I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" ... The house is a small two up two down

I can't see what the problem is.

The advice given to "rodders" by DCLG (and you can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that) is:

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective.

If zoning the house will increase the cost by a third, £3k to £4k, it is obviously not cost-effective as the additional outlay will never be recouped in lower heating bills.

​

 

[peteheat]

I can't see what the problem is.

The advice given to "rodders" by DCLG (and you can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that) is:

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective.

If zoning the house will increase the cost by a third, £3k to £4k, it is obviously not cost-effective as the additional outlay will never be recouped in lower heating bills.

​

Depends on what you think is value for money.

First you are assuming that energy costs will not rise to a level where customers need to squeeze every BTU out of the fuel they buy and use it in the most efficient way possible, as someone in the renewable energy business I think that is about now.

Customers are better informed today and tend to know that heat rises and ask why the radiators upstairs are providing heat when it is not needed.

Then we have the comfort levels we all like in our homes, I doubt there are two rooms in my house that have the same optimum temperature to the occupiers liking, we are all individuals and modern heating controls allow us to have the comfort levels that suit us.

 

[Leo21]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

 

[chris watkins]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

O for god sake let's go back to floor standing O/F boilers, as they lasted for ever.

 

[Leo21]

Love to. I wonder if you were to do a cost comparison between the life span of a floor stander to a modern boiler what would be best. One lasts thirty years and guzzles gas, or a modern condenser with a life span of six to ten years.

 

[chris watkins]

Don't wonder Leo21, work it out & let us know.
To start you off, 'A' rated = 90+% efficient - 65% O/F floor stander = 25% more efficient x average heating & hot water fuel cost for 10 years.
Look forward to your post.

 

[Leo21]

Will do when I get a mo, how's the kitchen hunting going?

 

[peteheat]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

We use Sauter controls and zone valves 5 years no quibble warranty.

Obviously plan the system, why put a zone or any other service valve under the floor where it can't be reached?

 

[Leo21]

Re: Central Heating Zones - New & Replacement System

We use Sauter controls and zone valves 5 years no quibble warranty.

Obviously plan the system, why put a zone or any other service valve under the floor where it can't be reached?

On a drop system with solid floors, other wise you'd have to double up the runs. I agree it would be bad practice. Again money talks and they,ll get fitted where evers easier for the the installer.

 

[doitmyself]

Depends on what you think is value for money.

Cost-effectiveness and value for money are not necessarily the same thing.

First you are assuming that energy costs will not rise to a level where customers need to squeeze every BTU out of the fuel they buy and use it in the most efficient way possible, as someone in the renewable energy business I think that is about now.

The problem is that those who set the rules are only interested in one thing: reducing fuel consumption. How much it costs the punter is irrelevant.

Could you possibly be biased?

Customers ... ask why the radiators upstairs are providing heat when it is not needed.

Isn't that why upstairs rads are provided with TRVs (which should be set to a lower temperature in any case)?

Then we have the comfort levels we all like in our homes

Agreed.

Zoning only works if the zones are properly separated, which means keeping all doors closed except when entering or leaving a room. There is no point zoning a house which keeps room doors open all the time (obvious cases excepted) as the upstairs rooms will get heated from downstairs, irrespective of what the TRVs are doing.

 

[peteheat]

The problem is that those who set the rules are only interested in one thing: reducing fuel consumption. How much it costs the punter is irrelevant.

Could you possibly be biased?

Zoning only works if the zones are properly separated, which means keeping all doors closed except when entering or leaving a room. There is no point zoning a house which keeps room doors open all the time (obvious cases excepted) as the upstairs rooms will get heated from downstairs, irrespective of what the TRVs are doing.

Biased?

I don't think so as I am also OFTEC and RGI (Irish version of Gas Safe) I also propose the same zoning on wood pellet, wood gasifiers etc as I do for fossil fuels, the only difference is for UFH where I use a stat in each room.

We fit the system, advise the customer as to the best way to use it, after that they must do their bit.

 

[mickie]

if you're installing a new heating system it shouldnt be too hard to fit an extra stat and zone valve, anyway i was only informed when gas safe came out to another installers job and said he hadnt zoned the floors and that he should have, if i hadnt heard that story how should i have found out?..their will be thousands of installers that dont know and will continue to not zone anything untill gas safe come out to inspect the property and tell him that he is contributing more to the worlds demise than america, china and Russia put together..

fix it or get a bigger fine than the banks miss selling you ppi..
i was just talking about this the other day, how they care more about gas installers fitting room stats than they do, cyclists being killed by trucks..

i guess they just think at least that dead girl wont be using up the earths resources anymore.

i dont quite know what an extra room thermostat will do if every radiator has a thermostat on it, which turns the radiator off when the room is up to the desired temperature, maybe the room stat knows something the radiator stat doesnt ?

 

[Leo21]

What if you used those digital Trv,s, you then would be technically zoning every room.