New CH Project

[pana37]

hi all I'm learning a lot of this forum, i didn't want to resurrect the old thread with Hep2o nuff said!

So starting this one thought id show you the 1st floor plan of my house.

Unfortunately I'm unable to router the pipes along the wall, ideally this would have been the where the bathrooms are however would have ripping out the bathrooms, no plans for a few years yet. So the route looks like will be on the landing.

the New Boiler will be sited on the Ground Floor right under-neath where the towel rail will be opposite the w/c will be in the En-Suite. Proposed radiators are under the windows you can see with a white box.

Here is the plan i made, any suggestions as always welcomed, thanks all

Please note: sizes are not exact the program i was using is very fiddly

 

[happyflyer]

Pana,

What are you wanting, a design

 

[pana37]

a suggested route/design, please. How would you guys route the 22mm pipes?

also worth noting i will be running 4 rads from 1st floor to Gnd Floor so will be dropping down from Study to feed 1 for Gnd Flr window and 1 for Porch, then 2 for the TV Room which is below Bed 2 and Bed 3. i hope that's clearer? I guess it will take longer for the Gnd Flr to heat up as 1st Flr will warm up 1st?

Bedroom 2 is part of an double storey extension so will be a double wall.

I'm hoping to get a Megaflow type system to replace the existing tank (Immersion), that's another issue, as the pressure currently is low. That's another issue i need to look into.

 

[Howsie]

I'd have the bath in the bathroom not the en-suite.

Re the other questions. Call a plumber in to have a look. Your doing it back to front.

 

[happyflyer]

How old is the house is it on lead pipe, also what did you draw you plan on, where in the GF drawing, are the floor solid GF, what it the flow rate at the cold taps FF bath tap and then GF sink tap in l/m, where do you live, are you intending doing this yourself, why did you mention the HEP2O and then cringe.

 

[pana37]

I'd have the bath in the bathroom not the en-suite.

Re the other questions. Call a plumber in to have a look. Your doing it back to front.

not possible this would involve moving the wall, originally this house didn't have En-Suite this was the Family Bathroom, they made the Bedroom 4 smaller then stuck in the Shower Room. Not ideal but there you go we bought this house last year and buying a house always doesn't have everything ideal, unless you build one, lol that's my take on it.

 

[pana37]

How old is the house is it on lead pipe, also what did you draw you plan on, where in the GF drawing, are the floor solid GF, what it the flow rate at the cold taps FF bath tap and then GF sink tap in l/m, where do you live, are you intending doing this yourself, why did you mention the HEP2O and then cringe.

no i don't think its lead its a 1970's house, from what i can see looks like a black plastic pipe. yes GF is solid. The plumber checked this i cant remember what it was he did say not enough flow rate for Megaflow and would need a pipe run from the road. i live in Middlesex. it wasn't me that cringed it was almost everyone else, lol. yes will be doing it myself once i get the gas torch will be practicing a few times on some odd ends before i start.

 

[supper plumb]

sounds like your in for a lot of head aches.
can you not get the plumber to do all the work and you just learn and work along side him as his lab you mite save abit of cash and learn the tricks and in your head knowing the guy has done this before soo its easy for him

 

[pana37]

sounds like your in for a lot of head aches.
can you not get the plumber to do all the work and you just learn and work along side him as his lab you mite save abit of cash and learn the tricks and in your head knowing the guy has done this before soo its easy for him

ill asses the situation after i do some practice joints, i done the complete CH in my old house about 12 years ago however i used copper pipe and used push fits for the joints. i really would like to use copper fittings and bend the pipes where possible.

are you able to offer a suggestion on the route? i was thinking using the landing as the main run

 

[supper plumb]

think im wright in thinking your ment to have one set of flow and return pipes for ground floor and one set for 1st floor ?
soo you'd start running the pipes from the boiler arround the ground floor to the last rad then drop the pipe in from the ceiling for the 1st floor same agen??
that's how i was shown

 

[pana37]

yes i would have done this, however i cant see a what to do this in this house. i want to avoid running pipes surface along the skirting and around the fireplace trouble is GF is open plan which includes the stairs. think ill have to draw up a plan for GF to give you guys some idea. I cant see myself running surface all around the GF tbh.
how much of an issue will this cause running from 1st Fl with 1 Flow and 1 Return to serve 1st and Gnd Flr?

 

[supper plumb]

can you not run the pipes for gf in the 1st floor along side the 1st floor pipes and drop them down in the wall????
just trying to help think the big dogs will have to sort this one out for you buddy
What has your plumber suggested

 

[pana37]

can you not run the pipes for gf in the 1st floor along side the 1st floor pipes and drop them down in the wall????
just trying to help think the big dogs will have to sort this one out for you buddy

i guess i could just means more of the joists notched out, and of course a lot more £££ for the extra 22mm pipes

 

[supper plumb]

Call the plumber and ask him best way as he will be working on it too?

 

[pana37]

Yes he will I'll try and call him next few days

 

[SimonG]

Need a heating design, no problem, but it will cost.

 

[happyflyer]

Pana,

If you want help you need to start helping yourself like now I asked you for flow rates if you can't do them, its a bad start, stop talking and start doing, I do HVAC design for a living, like now, bucket, watch, I need two flow rates, if you want help, your next mail should have them, also what is in the gap bottom right corner of drawing, are the stairs on the outside of the house, that's what it looks like, windows and sizes missing off drawing, if you had told me a was a 70 build I would have know it wasn't lead, plumbers have noses. Not all plumbers just guess things put their finger in the air to see which way the winds blowing. Why don't you put some lines on a GF and FF drawings with you thoughts of how you would like to do it, you are not going to be able to hide pipe into the wall, there will be boxing in if you want to do a proper job. Have you increased the original loft insulation???

When you measure the flow rates let the water settle down, open the tap let it run for 10 sec and then put the bucket under and start the measuring, if the bucket fills very fast, run the time over 15 sec and x 4 or 30 sec x 2. BTW I am not asking you for flow rates to advocate you using a combi boiler if you want design help and you want to fit a combi I am not your man, I see you have a bath and my nose tells me, have you got time to sit and wait it fill up with a combi, i have neighbors who have had combi fitted and now wish they had not, and you have room for a mega flow so use it.

What did you do the drawing on?

 

[happyflyer]

 

[happyflyer]

your overlay FF

 

[happyflyer]

Your Quote

the New Boiler will be sited on the Ground Floor right under-neath where the towel rail will be opposite the w/c will be in the En-Suite.

I don't understand that must be on an internal wall !!!!!

Please draw GF put boiler on drawing, where is the flue going to come out ???

If you are not careful you will have a lot of co-ordination clashes under the En-Suite floor being an armature you want to avoid this, you do not want to have to do a lot of fiddly soldering it needs to be flat and in front of you so you can see all around the joint soldered joints

 

[pana37]

Thanks happyflyer, i appreciate your genuine help here.
I've let the bath cold tap run for 10 secs then placed bucket and started my watch... 10 litre bucket took 30-32 seconds to fill. not sure what you meant by 2 readings anyway i took one from the kitchen tap same thing I let the tap run for 10 secs bucket took 50 seconds to fill.


Apologies i didn't mention it currently has a warm air heating only system, with an immersion tank on the 1st floor which has a cold tank in the loft

I'd thought I'd take a pic of the stopcock from what i can see the plastic pipe from water meter in the floor is black



further back as you can see the pipe going back in the floor i believe is going to the Kitchen Tap and possibly GF w/c


excuse the dirt in the pictures its in a boiler cupboard where the warm air boiler is which will be removed and will be part of the kitchen, they New boiler will be on the other side of the back of the cupboard.

 

[pana37]

I'll make up the plan for the GF and post it up shortly. the program i use for my drawings is Sweet Home 3D.

 

[happyflyer]

Take the grid off if you can on any more drawing I scan them in and backdrop them into ACAD, the water flow are OK if you fit a mega flow you will fill a bath in 2 mins looks like you got better flow upstairs than down, that will be the run to the Kitchen. You have loads of room on the landing for a mega-flow and it is central to all the taps so no dead-legs long draw offs, the Kitchen will be the longest, let me have wall type brick block etc windows plastic wood double glazed and I will work out you rads sizes.

Go for single rads where possible, especially upstairs doubles stick out to far, you will notice I avoid heating pipe anywhere near the En-suite and shower room, get out as quick as possible there will be loads of other pipes under there, do not route pipes under the cylinder you need room to bring the main F/R up, hot and cold up and down, again it will be crowded.

What are all those other steel pipes in the photo, London plumbing is crap, this one won't be if you follow my rules, there will be people who will chip in, hope not from London LOL only choking :39:the plumber who did the work on my house in Manchester 17 years back was on the pee and drugs, I have ripped it all out now, well most of it.

Tony

 

[Dotty]

My money's on the steel pipe being gas.

Leave it alone.

 

[pana37]

My money's on the steel pipe being gas.

Leave it alone.

100% Correct the Gas safe engineer who will be fitting my boiler is going to replace this direct from the Meter which is in the garage

 

[Dotty]

Get him to test it, if it's sound I'd leave it alone, it looks about 1" pipe so should be large enough.

Save a few quids!

just had another look, may be 3/4"

Difficult to tell from a photo.

 

[happyflyer]

We don't use steel up here for gas only if its > 1" or 28 mm in new money and domestic is only 22 mm it would be nice if you man could take all the steel out back to the meter, steel pipe is full of crap anyway.

Tony

Croppie, you going to keep and eye on us, I would want to cause a North South divide war, I think would be easy to start :6: we will keep you in the loooooooooooop, or you can jump through them

 

[pana37]

Trouble is the Gas and water pipe is in the wrong location , it needs to be on the other side of the wall, Gnd Flr Plan nearly done hopefully will be clearer.

 

[AWheating]

Looks like happy will put you in the right direction.

if you need any further help pm me with correct dimensions etc.... and if ive got time ill do you some drawings with pipe routes or even better help you make your own drawings.

 

[doitmyself]

also worth noting i will be running 4 rads from 1st floor to Gnd Floor so will be dropping down from Study to feed 1 for Gnd Flr window and 1 for Porch, then 2 for the TV Room which is below Bed 2 and Bed 3.

This is a new installation, so it has to comply with the current Building Regulations. These specify a minimum of two heating zones with individual temperature controls and, if the house is over 150m² total floor area, separate time controls. The normal way of zoning is upstairs/downstairs, which will be impossible to achieve if the ground floor is fed from the first floor.

You need to get your proposed layout cleared with Building Control at the local council before starting work or you may find yourself ripping pipes out to comply with requirements.

 

[happyflyer]

Pana37,

If AW will do all the drawing and help you do your own, go with him, as far as zoning is concerned you can go one better than BR, either use wireless radiator valves this will give a zone for every room, or Terrier and Honeywell do a cheap battery operated valve each has its own zone temp control and own time zones, either way you need not worry about how you decide to pipe the system up, dropping down from the 1st floor circuit to the GF rads will not restrict you, maybe you can teach building control a thing or two or maybe not.

Good luck with it

Tony

 

[happyflyer]

This is a new installation, so it has to comply with the current Building Regulations. These specify a minimum of two heating zones with individual temperature controls and, if the house is over 150m² total floor area, separate time controls. The normal way of zoning is upstairs/downstairs, which will be impossible to achieve if the ground floor is fed from the first floor.

You need to get your proposed layout cleared with Building Control at the local council before starting work or you may find yourself ripping pipes out to comply with requirements.

If you are dropping down that pipe size I put on the drawing needs increasing in the right places, you need to oversize small bore slight keep the velocity down and noise.

Tony

 

[AWheating]

the controls need boiler interlock so i dont think the single programable trv's meet the requirements.

i only offered because i though happy was doing it 😉.......joke, i will help if i can.

 

[happyflyer]

This will get you around BR wireless controller for 8 rads with pump and boiler interlocking, having two zone is very limiting when you have a study upstairs and you can have the bathroom and the en-suite on separate zones, there is so much out there in the form of controls and it will save you much more money than this stupid BR two valves that will be a pig to place on your system, bit more to invest but blow away anold TRV




http://www.syxthsense.com/product/product_pdf/TH6.115-RX0801.pdf


Tony

 

[happyflyer]

the controls need boiler interlock so i dont think the single programable trv's meet the requirements.

i only offered because i though happy was doing it 😉.......joke, i will help if i can.

AW never have the ball in your hand when the music stops :6:

 

[happyflyer]

Pana,

whats the floor area of you house


BRL

For larger
dwellings, e.g. where floor area exceeds 100
m2, independent temperature control on the
basis of two independent zones will generally
be appropriate. In certain cases, additional
zone control may be desirable, e.g. zones
which experience significant solar or other
energy inputs may be controlled separately
from zones not experiencing such inputs.

 

[happyflyer]

sorry its this one

TX Wireless Boiler / Pump Controller Module (TX-CCRX)

 

[supper plumb]

your overlay FF



View attachment 13301

Nice one Happy thats a nice plan mate this will help the guy out

 

[pana37]

To Mr Happy
finally done the plan for Ground Floor with Window types and dimensions thanks once again.

 

[pana37]

ill redo the 1st Floor now without grid with dimensions and windows

 

[pana37]

1st Floor Plan re-done with window types dimensions etc :coolgleamA:

 

[doitmyself]

BRL

For larger dwellings, e.g. where floor area exceeds 100m2, independent temperature control on the basis of two independent zones will generally be appropriate. In certain cases, additional zone control may be desirable, e.g. zones which experience significant solar or other energy inputs may be controlled separately
from zones not experiencing such inputs.

I'm sorry, but you are quoting from outdated regulations.

The current Building Services Compliance Guide 2010 says (page 22 Table 2):

a) Dwellings with a total usable floor area up to 150m² should be divided into at least two space heating zones with independent temperature control, one of which is assigned to the living area,

b) Dwellings with a total usable floor area greater than 150m² should be provided with at least space heating zones, each having separate timing and temperature controls,

c) For single storey open plan dwellings. in which the living area is greater than 70% of the total floors area sub-zoning of temperature control is not appropriate.

 

[happyflyer]

Ok,

I got the wrong version, what I would like to know is this, in London it takes building control all the time to keep up with people building dwelling at the bottom of their gardens, dwelling not in my sense of the word, do you think BC would be interested in policing our man replacing and existing heating system and ensuring he makes it compliant and if he doesn't they will serve notice on so to do, I am a realist it an't going to happen, unless of course you know otherwise, nothing less than chapter and verse will do, actual case where this as happened.

It can see it happening with new build, and BTW some BC areas don't inspect new builds at all....


Tony

Going back to this project, it would be near impossible (no practical) to provide two zones, I have already gone trough that and there are ways of doing in better.

Frankly I am sick to the back teeth with regulations, some are excellent, some not, it makes me laugh we are talking here about 2 zone control imposed to help this and the last stupid government on the environment, neither of them had or have a proper energy policy, we have nearly run out of gas, there are likely to electrical cuts this winter and they think 2 zones in domestic dwelling will cure and a bit for free loft insulation, get real, wake and smell the poo.

Bad day my BB playing up set me off in old git mode.

"Doris can you smell gas"

Oh and I forgot we have people who don't know how to drain down a heating system rubber bung my bum.

 

[Gray0689]

I'd have the bath in the bathroom not the en-suite.

Re the other questions. Call a plumber in to have a look. Your doing it back to front.

Why what's the problem
You mean your opinion would be

 

[doitmyself]

I can see it happening with new build, and BTW some BC areas don't inspect new builds at all

I suspect that is because the contractors will use their own tame "Approved Inspectors".

Going back to this project, it would be near impossible (not practical) to provide two zones, I have already gone through that and there are ways of doing in better.

I totally agree.

Frankly I am sick to the back teeth with regulations, some are excellent, some not, it makes me laugh we are talking here about 2 zone control imposed to help this and the last stupid government on the environment ...

The laugh is that the requirement to have two zones is not a hard and fast rule; it's only a guide. See Zoning Requirements.

 

[happyflyer]

I suspect that is because the contractors will use their own tame "Approved Inspectors".


I totally agree.


The laugh is that the requirement to have two zones is not a hard and fast rule; it's only a guide. See Zoning Requirements.

You could drive a coach and horses through it all and still no one would give a fig, I lecture at a Manchester University on a building sciences degree coarse to building construction students, some of these will be building control officers, this is a new set up because BCO know crap all out building services and most don't want to.

 

[AWheating]

new builds are normally signed off under NHBC or Zurich or simular. These insepctors will know all about zones. Mod work, who cares? not LBC

 

[Howsie]

Why what's the problem
You mean your opinion would be

/sigh

 

[Nostrum]

The zoning rules are being relaxed/reverted from what I hear, just as well because pretty much nobody bothered under 150 m3 anyway.

how do they expect you to carry out heat loss calculations when half the time the bedrooms are heated and the other half they are not. Elastic radiators maybe?

 

[supper plumb]

hows the plumbing going?? all good i hope

 

[Phil_Plumb]

Yes in new build the regs have to be followed, but in your own home.... the BCO aint really interested!

 

[Gray0689]

Yes in new build the regs have to be followed, but in your own home.... the BCO aint really interested!

Lol there not really bothered in most new builds as well as most haven't got a clue what there looking at

 

[Phil_Plumb]

HAHA thats cause the big contractors probably pay the BCO to look the other way, i think i smell a conspiracy