Which combi boiler, that is the question?

[fracmo2000]

Was looking to replace my old Glow-worm boiler, which has been in the flat (2 bed/1 bathroom/6 radiators) since it was built in the early 80s. However, I cant seem to settle/pick which would be best

British Gas Engineer recommends:
Worcester Greenstar Junior 28I Combi Boiler Natural Gas (£979)

Usual boiler guy recommends:
Vokera Compact 28SE (£449)

I thought Vaillant was a good brand (but pricey!) Vaillant ecoTEC Plus 824 Combi Boiler Natural Gas (£1040)

Another user pointed me in the direction of the Baxi duo tec, which comes with a fantastic warranty.

Decisions decisions.

Oh and a guy on another forum pointed out the Vokera SE isnt condensing, so it might be suitable due to building regulations in most areas (I live in scotland, so will need to double check this).

 

[Killy Bing]

this amuses me 🙂 if you go for the Worcester option go for a 29cdi instead of the junior 🙂
Vailliant is a cracking brand too.
I don't like vokera's however ive never worked on a SE one.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Worcester is pants so that rules that out

 

[village idiot]

get an Ideal Logic+ Combi 30 KW

 

[sheff paul]

Was looking to replace my old Glow-worm boiler, which has been in the flat (2 bed/1 bathroom/6 radiators) since it was built in the early 80s. However, I cant seem to settle/pick which would be best

British Gas Engineer recommends:
Worcester Greenstar Junior 28I Combi Boiler Natural Gas (£979)

Usual boiler guy recommends:
Vokera Compact 28SE (£449)

I thought Vaillant was a good brand (but pricey!) Vaillant ecoTEC Plus 824 Combi Boiler Natural Gas (£1040)

Another user pointed me in the direction of the Baxi duo tec, which comes with a fantastic warranty.

Decisions decisions.

Oh and a guy on another forum pointed out the Vokera SE isnt condensing, so it might be suitable due to building regulations in most areas (I live in scotland, so will need to double check this).

Vaillant pro 28,ideal logic 30, both ample for a 1 bath 6 rad property,check the incoming cold flow rate if its crap a 24kw might do

 

[AWheating]

Worcester is pants so that rules that out

nowt wrong with a WB, its all a personal opinion. If you dont fit them you are limiting your bussiness, they have such a huge % of the market afterall. give your customer 7-8 year warranty on one and any problems are sorted.

 

[northcarr]

Wb boiler's main problem in my opinion is they are a pain to work on plus expensive parts.I do offer them to my customers but my preferred boiler is the ldeal logic.

 

[LPC]

Honestly, when people recommend Ideal Logics over Worcesters I wonder how much crack they've been smoking. Fitted so many WBs and never once to this day had a problem or callback.
They are a bit of a pain to work on, but if you're questioning their reliability then you're plain wrong.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Honestly, when people recommend Ideal Logics over Worcesters I wonder how much crack they've been smoking. Fitted so many WBs and never once to this day had a problem or callback.
They are a bit of a pain to work on, but if you're questioning their reliability then you're plain wrong.

Not wanting to get into the debate between Worcester and Ideal, but this does raise an interesting point.

Imagine for a moment that there were only two boilers in the whole country, and 10% of all houses have Boiler A, and 90% have boiler B.

Boiler A goes wrong on average once a year. Parts are cheap and easy to find, and the boiler is very easy to work on.

Boiler B goes wrong on average once every 9 years. Its a difficult boiler to work on, and the parts are expensive.

Engineers who specialise in fixing broken down boilers will see approximately the same number of each boiler. However they may report on internet forums that boiler A is a better boiler, based on the cheaper parts and easier fixes.

Householders would do well to ignore such advice.

To make recommendations on reliability, we really need to know the number installed AND the number that go wrong. And that data is almost impossible to get hold of, so we are left with anecdotal evidence, unless the problem is of such a major scale like the Icos/Isar that it becomes apparent to everyone.

 

[kay-jay]

Not wanting to get into the debate between Worcester and Ideal, but this does raise an interesting point.

Imagine for a moment that there were only two boilers in the whole country, and 10% of all houses have Boiler A, and 90% have boiler B.

Boiler A goes wrong on average once a year. Parts are cheap and easy to find, and the boiler is very easy to work on.

Boiler B goes wrong on average once every 9 years. Its a difficult boiler to work on, and the parts are expensive.

Engineers who specialise in fixing broken down boilers will see approximately the same number of each boiler. However they may report on internet forums that boiler A is a better boiler, based on the cheaper parts and easier fixes.

Householders would do well to ignore such advice.

To make recommendations on reliability, we really need to know the number installed AND the number that go wrong.

Ha ha ideal and Worcester is like choosing between a turd sandwich and a shyt butty.

 

[LPC]

Really i'm aware that arguing over boiler brands is a futile effort. We can only go on personal experience and in my experience, WBs are extremely reliable and parts are cheap and plentiful (as an installer and a service/repair engineer). So are Vaillants although issues with the pressure sensors and leaking rubber hose clips are fairly widespread (not to mention the gasket incidents).

 

[Ray Stafford]

I'd love to see the manufacturers all agree to publish their reliability stats.

With other products, we can see the returns-in-warranty data, and therefore base decisions on hard facts. For example, I have published on here our warranty returns data on controls and a couple of other products.

 

[kay-jay]

I'd love to see the manufacturers all agree to publish their reliability stats.

With other products, we can see the returns-in-warranty data, and therefore base decisions on hard facts. For example, I have published on here our warranty returns data on controls and a couple of other products.

Got a link to tbe thread ray?

 

[LPC]

It seems to me that the people that dislike WB have never fitted them in numbers so have no idea of their reliability. Yeah, you've had to fix them? That's because there's a gazillion of them out there. Some of them are going to go wrong.
Like I said before, you can't doubt their overall reliability as a manufacturer.

I'm leaning towards Vaillants lately but only to make life a bit easier for me 5 - 10 years from now when eventually, some of the boilers i've installed do go wrong.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Got a link to tbe thread ray?

Post 21 on this thread - and it refers to an earlier one.

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/central-heating-forum/45780-salus-rf-roomstats-2.html

 

[kay-jay]

It seems to me that the people that dislike WB have never fitted them in numbers so have no idea of their reliability. Yeah, you've had to fix them? That's because there's a gazillion of them out there. Some of them are going to go wrong.
Like I said before, you can't doubt their overall reliability as a manufacturer.

I'm leaning towards Vaillants lately but only to make life a bit easier for me 5 - 10 years from now when eventually, some of the boilers i've installed do go wrong.

I have a 24i junior 8 years old. Had 3 new pcb's , 1transformer 2 fans 2 divertor valves and a new fan. Not exactly a great advertisement for reliability is it....

 

[LPC]

Well that's just ridiculous, by any standard. I don't know of any boiler i've ever seen that's had that many repairs.
But ok. So you have a WB. How many have you fitted?

 

[iain85]

I have a 24i junior 8 years old. Had 3 new pcb's , 1transformer 2 fans 2 divertor valves and a new fan. Not exactly a great advertisement for reliability is it....

To counter that. I have exactly the same boiler albeit 7 years old installed by me in my house. I have tested the combustion and gas rate twice and has been zero hassle. ( Touches wood! )

I fit only Worcester boilers and have been happy with them entirely.

 

[Dotty]

I have a 24i junior 8 years old. Had 3 new pcb's , 1transformer 2 fans 2 divertor valves and a new fan. Not exactly a great advertisement for reliability is it....

So what you're saying is it's as good as new............

 

[kay-jay]

To counter that. I have exactly the same boiler albeit 7 years old installed by me in my house. I have tested the combustion and gas rate twice and has been zero hassle. ( Touches wood! )

I fit only Worcester boilers and have been happy with them entirely.

We can all only speak grom experience. And my experience of wb is not good. I find most of wm mot good to work on. Oarts expensive and unreliable. But thats just me

 

[kay-jay]

So what you're saying is it's as good as new............

I have seen ferrolis cause less bother

 

[LPC]

Again, I re-iterate my point. There are so many WBs out there, you're going to repair more of them than most other brands due to sheer numbers.
I want to hear from the guy that fitted loads of them and they all went to ****, or something. Because i've fitted loads, and they're all perfect.

 

[kay-jay]

Again, I re-iterate my point. There are so many WBs out there, you're going to repair more of them than most other brands due to sheer numbers.
I want to hear from the guy that fitted loads of them and they all went to ****, or something. Because i've fitted loads, and they're all perfect.

Didnt fit mine then?😛

 

[julesverne]

would fit an ideal over worcester but thats my preference WB are no more reliable than a logic or vaillant or duo tec he a. worcester do really well because they provide excellent customer service and have there head so far up Which magazine's editiors back side they are practically licking his teeth is why they are popular. a great example of marketing and branding not engineering and design

 

[Ermintrude]

would fit an ideal over worcester but thats my preference WB are no more reliable than a logic or vaillant or duo tec he a. worcester do really well because they provide excellent customer service and have there head so far up Which magazine's editiors back side they are practically licking his teeth is why they are popular. a great example of marketing and branding not engineering and design

Ay men ! I have fitted The odd boiler. I have repaired one or two. A boiler is as good as the install. This excludes mark I, II and VI isar. I do how ever feel disappointed when I have to repair cheap plastic components on a premier product.

Worst boiler is a poorly fitted one or one that's has almost every man and his dog at it.

 

[solutions]

I'd love to see the manufacturers all agree to publish their reliability stats.

With other products, we can see the returns-in-warranty data, and therefore base decisions on hard facts. For example, I have published on here our warranty returns data on controls and a couple of other products.

I agree, however that would still only be a fraction of the story. It would not take in to account out of warranty repairs or repairs undertaken independently that may not be reported to the manufacturer and how could the manufacturer effectively determin whether a part failure was manufacturing, material issue or poor install without every faulty part being sent back.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I agree, however that would still only be a fraction of the story. It would not take in to account out of warranty repairs or repairs undertaken independently that may not be reported to the manufacturer and how could the manufacturer effectively determin whether a part failure was manufacturing, material issue or poor install without every faulty part being sent back.

A fair point. However, with boiler warranties now extending to a gazzillion years, it would at least be a starting point. 🙂

 

[Mike Jackson]

I tend to favour the boiler manufacturers that give me the best support on a good product. I used to like fitting Worcester but as I didn't fit enough to qualify as a platinum installer I lose out to the firms that fit loads and can offer the longer warranties. This annoys me because it means that they are just pushing for sales rather than quality installs.

I'm an accredited installer for Atag and Intergas boilers not because I fit hundreds of them but because I have been on their training courses and made the effort to learn about their products.

I also don't like working on WB they are pain to work on and as someone else pointed out a plastic manifold on a premium product is a step too far.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I'm an accredited installer for Atag and Intergas boilers not because I fit hundreds of them but because I have been on their training courses and made the effort to learn about their products.

And this is why the best solution is often to choose your installer, and then be guided by them on the product.

An Intergas or Atag boiler fitted by Mike will be a better boiler than an Intergas or Atag fitted by any random engineer, because Mike has invested the time in learning about them, so his customers will get an informed recommendation, and a high quality installation.

The same applies to all the quality makes, and even , to a degree, to the budget makes. Even a cheap boiler will last better if fitted by someone who understand's it's little foibles.

 

[Grumpy old Plum]

Why not stay with Glow Worm as a mid priced boiler but go for the Ultracom

 

[solutions]

And this is why the best solution is often to choose your installer, and then be guided by them on the product.

An Intergas or Atag boiler fitted by Mike will be a better boiler than an Intergas or Atag fitted by any random engineer, because Mike has invested the time in learning about them, so his customers will get an informed recommendation, and a high quality installation.

The same applies to all the quality makes, and even , to a degree, to the budget makes. Even a cheap boiler will last better if fitted by someone who understand's it's little foibles.

Agree whole heartedly with you both I am Vaillant accredited again because I attended the training course not because I fit them in any great volume. My only issue with Worcester's is that I personally dislike the internal layout on many of their boilers just too tightly packed and I have been to too many pinholed plastic hydraulic assembly's to recommend them to my customers. I do explain to my customers the reasons for my preference and that I have a greenstar 28i junior in my own home and it works faultlessly. The obvious design flaws or periodicly reported manufacturing defects that ocassionaly surface from all sorts of manufacturers aside, the majority of repairs I undertake on modern boilers are as a direct result of poor quality workmanship at install, bad install design or lack of servicing. In many instances installers have plain ignored regs and Mi's.