Side Entry Ball Valves (2 of 2)

[ShaunCorbs]

water board regs and wras regs people plz need to be 1000000000000000% right which way i go 😀

Note This Is A Commercial Setting Eg Schools Etc Where High Traffic Is Normal

during the schools shut down (aka school hols) 3 (me, building inspector and water-board) of us went round inspecting the water and heating systems in schools, we do this every 3 years to look for problems and check water meters etc,

went to a well brand new school (2 years old approx) everything ok heating and meter wise etc, the last thing we have to check is toilets, undo the the concealed panels takes the lid off the cistern, water board guy takes a look for wasting water etc (jobs-worth 😀) and see a brass ball valve (part 1) extended arm (which i love brass ball valves because theres less wear and easy to change parts but thats going off point 😀) and hes says thats illegal so i take a look and theres a dcv on the incoming main just after the iso and hes still said its illegal as water can still back flow.

now before i challenge him i want to make sure im right and dont want to charge the local a shed load to change every valve in the school if i am

summary can you use a part 1 with a dcv and be water regs ok etc

if no what ball valve can i fit needs to have an extended arm (float arm) and would like it brass if pos, because he also said you cant use one of these with the plastic silence tube on as that one can back flow (part 3)

i think i have made it as clear as i pos can
any q please ask

 

[jaydebruyne]

As far I was aware, part 1 valves are not wras approved no matter if there's a dcv or not. An argument could be if the dcv failed, it could back flow. So will have to be either a part 2 or a fluidmaster type ballvalve..

 

[ShaunCorbs]

anyone like to comment?????????

 

[lame plumber]

go look in the wras book sold on amazon, covers every reg, mines in the van at present 🙂

 

[ShaunCorbs]

go look in the wras book sold on amazon, covers every reg, mines in the van at present 🙂

already looked the one i have says part 1 with dcv is ok 😀 now hes telling me no have they been updated ??????????

 

[plumben]

So what your saying is that you can no longer use a part 1 and dcv on a cold water supply connected directly to the mains

 

[jaydebruyne]

Gonna look at my book.. Back soon

 

[jaydebruyne]

already looked the one i have says part 1 with dcv is ok 😀 now hes telling me no have they been updated ??????????

What revision of the regs have you got?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What revision of the regs have you got?

dont have a clue old i would think round 2008 year

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So what your saying is that you can no longer use a part 1 and dcv on a cold water supply connected directly to the mains

yes or tank cant be used where water is involved

 

[solutions]

Yes sadly the jobsworth is right cant use a part 1 just use an adjustable arm part 2 from williams its what I use on syphon cisterns.
This is it.

 

[Old Account]

Any chancd sombody could explain me why we are not allowed to use a brass float arm ? What is a dcv ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes sadly the jobsworth is right cant use a part 1 just use an adjustable arm part 2 from williams its what I use on syphon cisterns.
This is it.

the problem is if i have to change them they would need to have an extended arm as most of them are plastic cisterns

and also is it right you cant use type 3 with the plastic bag tube either sol???????????

 

[solutions]

Any chancd sombody could explain me why we are not allowed to use a brass float arm ? What is a dcv ?

Dcv is a back flow prevention device.
Double check valve.
You can use brass float arms but they have to be part 2 tyoe and not part 1 as part 2 can not cause back syphoning as the water outlet from the valve set us at the top typically from a pkastic arm where as part 1 the water exits tge valve from a hole on the bottom that could come in to contact with the stored water in the custern and resukt in back syohoning and contamination of a mains water supply.

 

[Old Account]

Is that generally not use those with the plastic bag or just in your case ?

 

[solutions]

the problem is if i have to change them they would need to have an extended arm as most of them are plastic cisterns

and also is it right you cant use type 3 with the plastic bag tube either sol???????????

Yes also correct as they can and do back syphon.
Why the extended arm? Are the cisterns a special shape or size?

 

[Old Account]

Thanks first of all,

Basically I will need to install wherever I go the extended arm version to prevent back flow and also too installing a double check valve ?

 

[jaydebruyne]

Page 7.4 of the latest regs book

 

[jaydebruyne]

Dcv is a back flow prevention device.
Double check valve.
You can use brass float arms but they have to be part 2 tyoe and not part 1 as part 2 can not cause back syphoning as the water outlet from the valve set us at the top typically from a pkastic arm where as part 1 the water exits tge valve from a hole on the bottom that could come in to contact with the stored water in the custern and resukt in back syohoning and contamination of a mains water supply.

Another reason for having to use part 2 is often you have to bend the brass arm in order to set the water level correctly and this, as far as regs go, is not acceptable as it weakens the arm which could become brittle and break...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Page 7.4 of the latest regs book

whats the difference other than the looks if they both conform to bs1212

 

[solutions]

Thanks first of all,

Basically I will need to install wherever I go the extended arm version to prevent back flow and also too installing a double check valve ?

The type you will need to install is known as a part 2 valve. Looks like this

Or also like this

You dont need to also fit a dcv if using this valve.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes also correct as they can and do back syphon.
Why the extended arm? Are the cisterns a special shape or size?

yes plastic duo shells wider than normal so a normal part 2 the ball would be where the hole for the flush is

 

[Old Account]

Alright, talked enough ...

For me is clear now I will use part 2 including a double check valve instead isolation valve and I am on the safe side. That's all I wanted to know cheers all for the massive help

 

[Old Account]

But it's better to use a ISO valve before double check in case the double check is gone

 

[solutions]

yes plastic duo shells wider than normal so a normal part 2 the ball would be where the hole for the flush is

Might have to resort to a plastic part 2.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might have to resort to a plastic part 2.

was thinking that can you get a decent one because the ones ive seen are crud but then my thinking is that can still back up water level will have to be a bit higher but could still happen

 

[jaydebruyne]

the position of where the water exits the valve...

 

[solutions]

was thinking that can you get a decent one because the ones ive seen are crud but then my thinking is that can still back up water level will have to be a bit higher but could still happen

Even if they have a piped overflow set too high the water level would normally spill over the syphon in to the pan before it reached the outlet on a part 2.

 

[Old Account]

I am so happy we do not have such issues in Germany we hardly have tanks in the loft ... Gravity dies out there ... Most of the time we have geberit frames for toilets ...

 

[jaydebruyne]

Alright, talked enough ...

For me is clear now I will use part 2 including a double check valve instead isolation valve and I am on the safe side. That's all I wanted to know cheers all for the massive help

You don't need a dcv if using a part 2

 

[Old Account]

Alright so if I use pt2 then it's already build in ?

 

[jaydebruyne]

whats the difference other than the looks if they both conform to bs1212

The position of where the water exits the valve

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Even if they have a piped overflow set too high the water level would normally spill over the syphon in to the pan before it reached the outlet on a part 2.

it does now with a part 1 thats what i couldn't understand

 

[Old Account]

What will happen in the to me if I use a wrong float valve ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The position of where the water exits the valve

so they could both back if the water goes high enough

 

[solutions]

I am so happy we do not have such issues in Germany we hardly have tanks in the loft ... Gravity dies out there ... Most of the time we have geberit frames for toilets ...

Yes and surface mounted issolators for almost everything and the little magnetic tile panels in the side of the bath to hide the floor gulley, loads of bathrooms I have been to in germany have the washing machine in them too. You do lots of things differently many of them better by design.

 

[jaydebruyne]

Alright so if I use pt2 then it's already build in ?

No, because the water exits above the valve, there is no chance of water reaching it and causing backflow if the valve fails..

 

[solutions]

it does now with a part 1 thats what i couldn't understand

Then just a case of the regs say so. Even if there is no potential contamination risk present.

 

[Old Account]

No, because the water exits above the valve, there is no chance of water reaching it and causing backflow if the valve fails..

True now I got it today a bit thick 🙂

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Then just a case of the regs say so. Even if there is no potential contamination risk present.

thnx

 

[ShaunCorbs]

thnx guys looks like ive got the job do doing them 🙁

 

[Old Account]

Yes and surface mounted issolators for almost everything and the little magnetic tile panels in the side of the bath to hide the floor gulley, loads of bathrooms I have been to in germany have the washing machine in them too. You do lots of things differently many of them better by design.

Yeah that's true ... That's why I struggle sometimes with British standards. Yes washing machine is most of the time in the bathroom too ... Also we have got 220v in bathrooms not 16v for shaving 😉

 

[solutions]

What will happen in the to me if I use a wrong float valve ?

Absolutely nothing. But you will know its not right and as a German you know there is nothing worse.

 

[Old Account]

Absolutely nothing. But you will know its not right and as a German you know there is nothing worse.

Hahha ... Yeah it does my headache if I know I'm doing wrong

 

[plumben]

Alright, talked enough ...

For me is clear now I will use part 2 including a double check valve instead isolation valve and I am on the safe side. That's all I wanted to know cheers all for the massive help

I'm not sure if you missed out or worded this wrong but you should always use a service valve \ isolation valve
Before any appliance\tap\cwsc... then any check valves or other valves required

As every outlet should have the ability to be independently isolated although not always possible or practical

 

[Best]

Another reason for having to use part 2 is often you have to bend the brass arm in order to set the water level correctly and this, as far as regs go, is not acceptable as it weakens the arm which could become brittle and break...

That's one reason I heard, - yet when you think about it, to replace a nice solid all brass part 1 valve with a part 2 brass valve will mean you have a diaphragm washer in it that will fail in a fairly short time, plus a plastic pin that can jam, plus an awful silly water outlet made of plastic
that can crack or snap off and shoot high pressure water straight up when valve opens. Bad job in a toilet cistern or worse in any tank with no lid.
Not an improvement IMO. An overflow on a cwt can & should be fitted at same level or just a tad below ballvalve to prevent water passing the ballvalve through threads or rising above it.
These modern ideas are just stupid & probably often invented from Europe.

 

[jaydebruyne]

I'm not sure if you missed out or worded this wrong but you should always use a service valve \ isolation valve
Before any appliance\tap\cwsc... then any check valves or other valves required

As every outlet should have the ability to be independently isolated although not always possible or practical

If only this was the case.. But worse still when people use the all plastic pushfit valves and the plastic slotted bit you turn sheers and renders it unusable.. *grunt* I hate them!

 

[joni os]

A tank is a receptacle for storing water and an air gap is what it says.
Neither know if their purpose is to flush a WC , feed a DHW cylinder or act as F&E.
Can anyone explain why a ball valve deemed safe for the latter two is unsafe on a WC cistern.
As for bending the arm, I have yet to break one but often ripple a copper tube. If this logic continues the commercial interests that sell us fittings will persuade the regulators that bending tube should be banned.

 

[Ray Stafford]

the commercial interests that sell us fittings will persuade the regulators that bending tube should be banned.

You shouldn't put ideas into my head! 🙂

 

[joni os]

"You shouldn't put ideas into my head".
And the sad thing is Ray if you suggested it some committee would approve it.

 

[plumben]

If only this was the case.. But worse still when people use the all plastic pushfit valves and the plastic slotted bit you turn sheers and renders it unusable.. *grunt* I hate them!

Theres literally nothing worse at all that the plastic ISO valves

 

[plumben]

When it comes to replacing a part 1 washer then, should we be replacing the whole valve for a part 2 now then

 

[jaydebruyne]

When it comes to replacing a part 1 washer then, should we be replacing the whole valve for a part 2 now then

Part 2 has a washer too..

 

[Old Account]

I'm not sure if you missed out or worded this wrong but you should always use a service valve \ isolation valve
Before any appliance\tap\cwsc... then any check valves or other valves required

As every outlet should have the ability to be independently isolated although not always possible or practical

Any yeah that's clear to me to have a valve to isolate for repair or changing it. But thanks for letting me know .

I struggled a lot of time when I went after other plumbers couldn't find anything to isolate. Worse case scenario shut the whole house ... But some ppl can't be bothered to install a simple ISO

 

[joni os]

Simple ISOs tend to leak on the spindle. Just done one this morning. Shutting whole house down is not usually a problem for the minutes it takes to do the ball valve. Different on commercial buildings. I always use lever valves in lofts.

 

[plumben]

Part 2 has a washer too..

What I mean is, if where saying that you shouldn't use a part 1 in a cwsc or wc fed from the mains, if you come to a old installation that needs a new washer with a part one with a dcv should we be swapping it for a part 2 valve instead of just replacing the washer

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Any yeah that's clear to me to have a valve to isolate for repair or changing it. But thanks for letting me know .

I struggled a lot of time when I went after other plumbers couldn't find anything to isolate. Worse case scenario shut the whole house ... But some ppl can't be bothered to install a simple ISO

Or if your like me have to do it live 🙁

 

[jaydebruyne]

What I mean is, if where saying that you shouldn't use a part 1 in a cwsc or wc fed from the mains, if you come to a old installation that needs a new washer with a part one with a dcv should we be swapping it for a part 2 valve instead of just replacing the washer

What I mean is, if where saying that you shouldn't use a part 1 in a cwsc or wc fed from the mains, if you come to a old installation that needs a new washer with a part one with a dcv should we be swapping it for a part 2 valve instead of just replacing the washer

As far as I believe, you don't have to retro fit and can just simply change the washer - but if you ever have to change the entire valve then I think you are meant to change it to a part 2. The more I read the page in the regs book, the more I'm convinced they contradict themselves!!!!

Reading it today, as long as there is a dcv immediately upstream of the part one, then a part one can be fitted anywhere, even in a wc. Page 7.4, R16.2 (recommended action by water industry).

But DETR Law states (same page) requirements for wc's is a part 2,3, or 4. Anywhere else part 1,2,3 or 4.

I give up!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

As far as I believe, you don't have to retro fit and can just simply change the washer - but if you ever have to change the entire valve then I think you are meant to change it to a part 2. The more I read the page in the regs book, the more I'm convinced they contradict themselves!!!!

Reading it today, as long as there is a dcv immediately upstream of the part one, then a part one can be fitted anywhere, even in a wc. Page 7.4, R16.2 (recommended action by water industry).

But DETR Law states (same page) requirements for wc's is a part 2,3, or 4. Anywhere else part 1,2,3 or 4.

I give up!

The thing I don't get Is I think the valves we're supplied with the cisterns can't see them spending more money on different valves when they come with one

 

[jaydebruyne]

The thing I don't get Is I think the valves we're supplied with the cisterns can't see them spending more money on different valves when they come with one

So backflow was the only reason this guy gave to say they were illegal? I think, by law, he is correct BUT if a dcv is fitted someone who isn't so anal can pass it without it breaking the law.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So backflow was the only reason this guy gave to say they were illegal? I think, by law, he is correct BUT if a dcv is fitted someone who isn't so anal can pass it without it breaking the law.

Yes and no he said they didn't have a bs no so they shouldn't be used and also back flow could happen but tbh I think it's one of them 10000000000000/1 situations don't see how it could back flow on mains with 3 bar behind it fair enough on tank but mains lol

 

[plumben]

The only problem with the regs. Is its all on interpretation you might read it one way and say its correct where as I might say that it's wrong although we could both be right

I think ill stick to buying part 2 valves from now just to be on the safe side,

Ray might see a drop in sales of part 1 valves after this thread

 

[jaydebruyne]

Yes and no he said they didn't have a bs no so they shouldn't be used and also back flow could happen but tbh I think it's one of them 10000000000000/1 situations don't see how it could back flow on mains with 3 bar behind it fair enough on tank but mains lol

Ohhh ok, so basically they've used cheapo valves that aren't BS approved.. If theyd been BS approved I bet he'd have passed them

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ohhh ok, so basically they've used cheapo valves that aren't BS approved.. If theyd been BS approved I bet he'd have passed them

But I would think they would be bs approved as everything sold is might not have the bs stamp don't know will pull one out and inspect it will thro some pics up when I do,

And yes plumb nothing is ever down in black it's all down to the installer to interprete the rules

 

[Best]

A tank is a receptacle for storing water and an air gap is what it says.
Neither know if their purpose is to flush a WC , feed a DHW cylinder or act as F&E.
Can anyone explain why a ball valve deemed safe for the latter two is unsafe on a WC cistern.
As for bending the arm, I have yet to break one but often ripple a copper tube. If this logic continues the commercial interests that sell us fittings will persuade the regulators that bending tube should be banned.

I admit I once snapped a part 1 ball valve arm when giving it a bend.
But it was the standard cheap valve and the "brass" arm was hard & brittle rubbish.
I was very lucky to not get ripped open with it, as the broken ends were long jagged shards.

 

[plumben]

I admit I once snapped a part 1 ball valve arm when giving it a bend.
But it was the standard cheap valve and the "brass" arm was hard & brittle rubbish.
I was very lucky to not get ripped open with it, as the broken ends were long jagged shards.

Give it a lick with the blow lamp before bending always helps I find