Am I being unreasonable?

[plumb_know]

Hi everyone,

I went to a job about month 1/2 ago where a customers heating was warming up with heating off and room stats down. Diagnosed it as faulty motorised valve (was rubbish plastic head things) also discussed it on this forum and was opinion of many to replace both these valves as rubbish. So quoted about £350ish to replace both of these motorised valves with Honeywell ones(metal heads). She accepted and in the quote I offer a standard 12month guarantee on my workmanship. I carried out the work, draining heating system, putting both motorised valves in and slight altering of pipe work to get them to fit nicely and refilled with inhibitor added. Had trouble refilling system due to boiler being in loft and air issues, but persisted and when left boiler firing and motorised working and heating and hot water working. 2 days later get call nothing is working, go out to find boiler lockout due to pressure loss. Find there is a leak inside casing of the boiler at the back and I can't see exactly what component the leak is coming from, as I am not gas safe I can't take boiler apart. This leak was clearly more than 2 days old though as was water mark stains and rust in casing. Showed customer and explained that was old leak and maybe aggrevated in draining and refilling system of system but was already their. Done a few other jobs in past so offered for the gas engineer I use to come out and service boiler (due for service anyway) and also diagnose leak whilst here all for £60 so she would get her service done instead of just paying a call out charge. I would be making no money on this service and once he had diagnosed leak and serviced boiler we could then discuss remedy of it. At time she agreed then once I sorted out date and time rang her and she didn't want to pay for engineer. She had heating and hot water from me topping up pressure but advised it would not last and she would need to keep topping up until fixed. Now over a month later she calls me saying she has been seeking legal advise as I said I guarantee my work. Apparently she was told to try and resolve it with me first, so I offered the same remedy as I first offered her, personally think she is bluffing about legal advise. I think I am being more than reasonable as I obviously have not caused a leak on a boiler by replacing motorised valves? Or is it just me and I'm in the wrong? What would you do? I feel I have done nothing wrong and on install and second visit both motorised valves were working fine still.

Sorry for the book, hope you guys like reading haha

thanks

 

[newcastle phill]

Cant see a problem for you.
If i take my car in for a repair on the engine and the fuel tank falls of cos its rotten then its my luck out.
you guarantee your work. Not the whole installation.

 

[plumb_know]

That's more or less the way I explained it to the customer. Just annoying when people try taking the biscuit. She knows I'm a new business and is trying it on.

 

[Best]

Once you have heard her viewpoint & allegations & perhaps a third visit from you to take a look (if both you & her accept), then always, always - put it in writing to her polite & to the point & keep copies! Take care with your wording & stick to the facts.
'Fair & Reasonable' is also what you should state you are in this matter, as it is a legal term.
Once you have proof of your responses, she will have a problem making you look bad.

 

[AWheating]

tell her to sod off. Its nowt to do with you, you have offered a fair way to get a Gas Engineer in with no gain for yourself.

put it all in writting as suggested by best.

 

[SimonG]

More than reasonable. You could have turned up, told her its nothing to do with you and billed her for your time.

You always get screwed when going the extra mile. As said, put it in writing, facts only, no emotion also include an invoice for diagnosing the leak.

Probably needs a new aav.

 

[plumb_know]

I do have it in an email I sent to her after the second visit when she tried saying I should cover it due to my warranty. In which I did put into writing everything that was discussed at her property at the day. Thanks everyone.

 

[Radioman]

E mail should be backed up with hard copy sent recorded delivery. On the header state "without prejudice" this prevents the letter being used against you in court. FYI you may offer 12 months guarantee but as a tradesman in England and Wales you are liable for your services for 6 years under the sale of goods and services act. I only know this as I went through the mill with a custard over a similar issue. All smiles and agreement on the day but turned nasty when I left. Short story: to unblock a bath I needed to remove the panel which had been tiled in. Got agreement verbally to break panel to remove. Removed panel cleared blockage got paid £40 left. 24 hours later got threats from son to do me serious damage if I didn't pay for new bathroom as I had caused criminal damage according to CAB. I told him his mother agreed action. She denied it. My mistake was not getting agreement in writing and signed by custard. I fought it to small claims and lost. Fined £750 plus costs. Luckily liability insurance paid out and it cost me the excess £100. I now operate as limited company so if it happened again I would just wind it up. Lesson learnt get it in writing before you touch it. In my opinion and experience if this goes to court you will lose. They will claim you overfilled the system and caused damage. My advice pay your mate to do the job and put it down to experience.

 

[wetdrip]

E mail should be backed up with hard copy sent recorded delivery. On the header state "without prejudice" this prevents the letter being used against you in court. FYI you may offer 12 months guarantee but as a tradesman in England and Wales you are liable for your services for 6 years under the sale of goods and services act. I only know this as I went through the mill with a custard over a similar issue. All smiles and agreement on the day but turned nasty when I left. Short story: to unblock a bath I needed to remove the panel which had been tiled in. Got agreement verbally to break panel to remove. Removed panel cleared blockage got paid £40 left. 24 hours later got threats from son to do me serious damage if I didn't pay for new bathroom as I had caused criminal damage according to CAB. I told him his mother agreed action. She denied it. My mistake was not getting agreement in writing and signed by custard. I fought it to small claims and lost. Fined £750 plus costs. Luckily liability insurance paid out and it cost me the excess £100. I now operate as limited company so if it happened again I would just wind it up. Lesson learnt get it in writing before you touch it. In my opinion and experience if this goes to court you will lose. They will claim you overfilled the system and caused damage. My advice pay your mate to do the job and put it down to experience.

Good post buddy.

 

[Radioman]

Sometimes we learn the hard way and this was just that. F ing hard. First time in 18 years I had to use the insurance. To add to the insult she took the money fitted a cheap plastic panel and sold the house. I later found out that they had a history of similar actions in the village.

 

[Best]

Sometimes we learn the hard way and this was just that. F ing hard. First time in 18 years I had to use the insurance. To add to the insult she took the money fitted a cheap plastic panel and sold the house. I later found out that they had a history of similar actions in the village.

That's terrible. I hate the thought of those type of people profiting from others.
Your point about recorded delivery post to back up emails is a good one & it doesn't cost much extra for ordinary sized letters. Means you know they got it & shows you are taking legal route if you have to.
The "Without Prejudice" wording to a letter can be, IMO maybe OTT for a simple matter as it makes you look like you are trying to avoid legal action against your letter. If on a simple matter where you are clearly in the right, I would be very very careful what I write in a letter so that if it goes to court, the letter can only make me appear honest & do damage to the other party. Surprising what a judge can read in to a letter!
One tip if you are being taken to a small claims court by someone, is that you will have the chance to counterclaim & reply to their claims (which they will receive) & they cannot answer or add to what you say until in court. Sometimes good idea to have a lot of writing in your basic statement of facts, but cleverly squeezed down so that you get say, 4 pages down to 2, avoiding irrelevant details & wording & using plenty of big words. Really good chance to destroy their case & wind them up a bit!

 

[Ray Stafford]

"Without prejuduce" should usually only be used if you are conceding a point where you do not believe you are wrong, but for goodwill, or to reach a speedy settlement.

So, for example, if you are owed £1000 immediately, but agree to accept 3 x £300 at monthly intervals because you think that its the best way of getting most of your money, you should head the letter "without prejudice". Then if the £300 payments don't come, you have not prejudiced your right to claim the full £1000 by other means.

In most other cases the best option is a clear, calm letter stating the facts as you see them, and proposing a course of action that a 3rd party (ie a judge) is likely to find reasonable. Always put a deadline on it - giving 14 days or 21 days to respond, and state what your default action will be if there is no response.

Deliver by recorded delivery is very useful, both in terms of making it clear that you mean business, and also later in court it avoids any defence based on "I didn't get the letter".

 

[plumb_know]

Thanks for the advise. But she would have no evidence of over filling so don't see it standing in court personally, plus there are rust and water mark damages which show leak is obviously old. But we will see what happens.

Thanks everyone

 

[oz-plumber]

I have been in this situation a few times and the best outcome is to wait until she takes further action.
If she goes legal on you, keep calling her lawyer and go through the situation with him / her.
They will soon get jack of you calling them, and in the end will end up billing her for your time.
She will get the message if she gets bills for 2 or 3 or more hours from her lawyer handling her case.

Just treat her with the same contempt, attitude she is treating you with.

 

[Millsy 82]

I would imagine she has been told to sort it out with you is because they have said she doesn't really have a case. If she did why would a solicitor pass up on good money?

 

[plumb_know]

Yes hopefully that is the case, so frustrating and hard not to take it personally. Anyway I will wait for solicitor to get in touch or ombudsman as most likely person she would have contacted I think.

Anyway I will let you know what outcome is.

Thanks
everyone

 

[plumb_know]

This was the email i sent after the second visit, in the future how should I word it to make it stand up in court better? I still think I have been polite and explained the situation clearly though.

Customer letter after I had left a message with details of appointment for visit of gas engineer we had arranged whilst on site:

Apologies for the missed calls. I’ve been so busy and mostly in and out yesterday. I couldn’t call when I got back being so late.

I’m not available on Saturday and aside from that having just paid £323 for the repairs less than a week ago; I can’t afford another £70 on call out and further repairs which may or not fix the problem.

I was hoping that when you repaired the boiler last Friday and the 12 months guarantee would put things right; which did not. Unfortunately I can’t afford to pay for more at this time.

My response to this email:


Im sorry you feel like that, but your guarantee is for the work i carried out on the heating system, which was replacing the 2 motorised valves. if you have a problem with these then i would come and sort them for no extra cost. But i did no work on your boiler and was just refilling your heating system which should not make a boiler leak. As you could see from the rust and scale in your boiler, this was not a brand new leak and had been going for some time and then had sealed itself with scale. In filling the heating system back up this may have aggravated the scale causing the fitting to leak greater, but the problem was already there.


I can do no more than offer you a service for £70 which i will make no profit on and for my heating engineer to diagnose the leak whilst there saving a call out charge and a saving on the service. A service is recommended yearly and as you haven't had one for 2 years it would be advisable to have one carried out anyway regardless of the leak.


If you Change your mind in the future please feel free to call us.

views welcomed
thanks

 

[Radioman]

"Without prejuduce" should usually only be used if you are conceding a point where you do not believe you are wrong, but for goodwill, or to reach a speedy settlement.

So, for example, if you are owed £1000 immediately, but agree to accept 3 x £300 at monthly intervals because you think that its the best way of getting most of your money, you should head the letter "without prejudice". Then if the £300 payments don't come, you have not prejudiced your right to claim the full £1000 by other means.

In most other cases the best option is a clear, calm letter stating the facts as you see them, and proposing a course of action that a 3rd party (ie a judge) is likely to find reasonable. Always put a deadline on it - giving 14 days or 21 days to respond, and state what your default action will be if there is no response.

Deliver by recorded delivery is very useful, both in terms of making it clear that you mean business, and also later in court it avoids any defence based on "I didn't get the letter".

Sorry but you are not totally correct in this supposition. Here is a quote from the law society
The without prejudice (WP) rule will generally prevent statements made in a genuine attempt to settle an existing dispute, whether made in writing or orally, from being put before the court as evidence of admissions against the interest of the party which made them. One reason for having the WP rule is the public policy of encouraging parties (or potential parties) to litigation to settle their disputes out of court. The rationale is that settlement discussions (and, it is hoped, settlement itself) will be facilitated if parties are able to speak freely, secure in the knowledge that what they have said and, in particular, any admissions which they might have made to try to settle the matter, may not be used against them should the settlement discussions fail. The inclusion of the words "without prejudice" will not necessarily bring the communication within the ambit of WP privilege if it is not, in substance, a communication made in a genuine attempt to settle an existing dispute.

So by using Without Prejudice you are protecting yourself. The number of successful small claims against tradesmen is very high as the magistrate will nearly always take the consumers side. On average it is 4 to 1 so do everything to avoid small claims. If you feel confident that you have a good case then run it by your liability insurers help line. Supposing you have one that is[emoji2].

 

[SimonG]

The leaks in the boiler, you didnt touch it, she hasnt maintained the boiler in line with mi's.

Have you been paid? If so dont worry about it. You have met your obligation.

 

[Worcester]

One thing we do is always provide a written quote detailing what we will do, even if only by email and also a written invoice describing the scope of the work carried out. hence creating a boundary around our responsibility.
However, as we are dealing with complex systems, sometimes it is difficult for the customer to understand what we did wasn't why two weeks later it's broke! So I sympathise with you, from the email you sent you are pretty much covered. So long as you've been paid, I wouldn't go back unless she agrees to pay (and get it BEFORE you start work 🙂 )

Something we also do is to photograph everything, including existing systems, so if there is a leak later the evidence is clear.