Ar/ntcs

[Ch3nKo]

Came across a flue yesterday for a Worcester greenstar 12i system boiler whilst doing a l.g.s.c.....the flue was 260mm from edge of flue to the window. not the reveal back into the frame but the actual window. I failed the boiler due to unsatisfactory termination point and informed my supervisor. They emailed the company who installed this and there guy in charge has stated that is a mix of NTSC and an AR situation.... and for the sake of a few mm it should of been a NTSC. apparently its down to engineers discretion..... surely hes talking out of his... and the problems are only getting worse. next property vertical flue approx 4.5m long not 1 clip. PRV connected onto old cylinder overflow and not returned safely. screws missing off front of boiler/case seal not secured correctly. How are people getting away with these things or am i all to naive to the running of HA's? and to boot this appliance was serviced in the last 3 months although the screws had been rusted into place from a leaking prv and has also has passed the last god knows how many cp12's..

:rant:



Your thoughts on this please guys

 

[diamondgas]

Not so long ago less than 300mm from a window was NCS if my memory serves me well? That's debateable ...lol... Goal posts have changed since! Personally i think this rule is archaic and was more appropriate and of use with balance flue not fan flued appliances! I've done countless FGA tests on flues 'to close' to windows with absolutely no ingress of any kind of fumes. One I remember was in a corner next to an openable window adjacent. Window open fully yet still nothing registering during the test!!! I know all the possibilities and potential issues but I still consider this a ruling that needs to be re-assessed!

It bothers me that in todays culture there's an overzealous err on the side of "cover ones backside"!!!!

I've lived through over 30yrs of the gas industry and it scares me how fear has taken a grip on its future!!

 

[diamondgas]

In answer to your question, Isn't it only AR if you can prove fumes are entering the property? *shrug*

 

[mikegas]

ID if fumes are entering the property, I'd class the flue as Ncs unless poc's are proved to be entering the property

 

[mfgs]

If fumes are entering then surely it would be ID. I agree though and most are ncs, I have At Risked very few for being too close but some just don't sit right with me even with no sign of fumes so I have to AR it. It is the engineer on site who needs to make the call though.

 

[Ch3nKo]

I've checked MI and verbally spoken to them and they have said 300mm minimum. In your opinion.... this boiler was only installed within the last 2 years and with literature stating 300mm would you consider this to be a ntsc or ar? i agree its the age old scenario of covering ones backside. When you consider there are people out there with OF appliances which haven't been serviced for donkeys years and here we are talking about the sake of 40-50mm on a fan flued appliance which like you say you've analysed a few with no bad readings. but i suppose its the age old.....what if

 

[Ch3nKo]

if i fitted a new boiler tomorrow 150mm from open-able window and next year you cp12 the property but find no pocs entering then this is actually ok to class as a ntcs? seems like a flaw somewhere down the line surely?

 

[diamondgas]

ID if fumes are entering the property, I'd class the flue as Ncs unless poc's are proved to be entering the property

Ooops! LOL ... Isn't it ID only if it's proven to be above a certain level of CO and rising... Otherwise AR?

 

[Ch3nKo]

just a image of boiler

 

[diamondgas]

That's class!! Still NCS IMHO unless you can prove otherwise!!

 

[zeebeedee]

Stupid place to install it but ncs only. I've spoken to gas safe on this who confirmed it. Apparantky there take is if it's a new boiler and a pluming kit can be fitted it should otherwise its ncs

 

[Reg Man]

So could be NCS because the terminal is to close to the window but on the day passes atmospheric testing and all OK just NCS. Then the weather conditions on another day cause POC to enter the building and would fail the atmospheric test and now its ID. Would the current unsafe situations procedure cover your back?

 

[mfgs]

You can only test on the day you are there, if you have real concerns AR it. As for what happens in the future, you cannot always be held accountable. What if you did a tightness test and it passed, yet started leaking 6 months later, are you to blame? Of course not, aslong as you didn't miss anything visibly obvious.

 

[Ch3nKo]

You can only test on the day you are there, if you have real concerns AR it. As for what happens in the future, you cannot always be held accountable. What if you did a tightness test and it passed, yet started leaking 6 months later, are you to blame? Of course not, aslong as you didn't miss anything visibly obvious.

Agree with that comment. The house this boiler is in was flagged up on the system for having a co2 alarm activated last year. and there are no other appliances in property. The co2 alarm caused an inspection of property to which "nothing found". maybe as regman said a variable in the weather one day could caused pocs to enter. but then again maybe it didn't

 

[GrahamM]

A flue 260mm to a window is only 40mm off the requirement and would almost always be NCS and I see any number of these a week.
Getting down to a 150mm clearance would still be NCS but you could use discretion to elevate to AR if you choose.
As soon as you have POC's entering the property from flue that is under the 300mm clearance it would be ID.

 

[mfgs]

If you are genuinely worried then AR it. Personally I think about 95% that I have seen have been NCS. At the end of the day its your call, and I know if I have doubts I will act upon them. I would rather someone try and have a go at me for being over cautious rather than suffer the consequences of trying to keep someone happy by not taking what I deem the appropriate action.

 

[Millsy 82]

If it has a CO alarm fitted and it has gone off it is a different story as then you are there to investigate fumes entering the property. I would do my tests and if it passes then I would AR it and replace the CO alarm as these can be faulty and recommend what to do with the flue Ie plume kit brick up window etc.

You will get alot of you are the first to do that if you do your job properly on HA contracts. I got it today got up in the roof and the woman asked what are you doing. Checking the flue. I was the first person up there so the only person to test the vertex flue and ventilation up there.

 

[Ch3nKo]

Personally im going get a pluming kit fitted but i just cant see why people when fitting these boilers are not checking/caring if they make the manufacturers measurements. its only a few years old and the MI clearly state minimum of 300mm. surely if they thought 260 200 150 was ok they would state that? Seems like im entering the big bad world of HA where the attitude seems to be....."looks ok from my house" and installs are just thrown in without due care and thought

 

[GrahamM]

If you worry about every flue you come across under the 300mm clearance you are going to be fitting a lot of plume kits!

 

[Ch3nKo]

i agree but im gonna go with the gut on this one. maybe a bit ott to some but personally the alarm going off and the fact it blows a gale up there even on the nicest of days is enough for me. In relation to installations....whats to stop someone fitting the boiler on a new install 200mm from window co2 testing room and then leaving it for someone to pick up. it just seems a blatant disregard to MI's and what they stand for

 

[GrahamM]

i agree but im gonna go with the gut on this one. maybe a bit ott to some but personally the alarm going off and the fact it blows a gale up there even on the nicest of days is enough for me. In relation to installations....whats to stop someone fitting the boiler on a new install 200mm from window co2 testing room and then leaving it for someone to pick up. it just seems a blatant disregard to MI's and what they stand for

Welcome to our world!!:yes:

 

[Reg Man]

Personally I find this situation a little contentious. But as long as you follow the Industry unsafe situation procedure which can be seen as a little woolly and BS7967 for the ambient testing then you have met your legal obligation.

 

[Millsy 82]

All you can do is do all your checks and then classify it as it is. Try not to go over as most HA's have people who will check over everything to make sure they are being carried out correctly and definatley dont go under. But there is always ways around that though (As in if I want to fail something I will find a way to fail it) The good thing about HA work is they cannot leave it and even the NCS will get done (eventually) or at least it is with the HA I do work for.

You will come across loads of bad installs I came across a flue today wasnt sure if it was vertical or horizontal it had a vertical flue kit on it but came out at 45deg through the roof no signs of damage, spillage and clipped so NCS it should of taken a photo but was too busy laughing to myself.

 

[diamondgas]

Or you could just take into account years of experience and call those who sit on the board of regulations fear based decision makers!!!!!!🙂 IMHO 🙂

Contentious ... hmmm! I honestly don't believe that regulations can govern everything we see or do, as long as society is driven by a regime of litigation, rules will always err on the side of "worst case scenario" mentality... nothing to do with real world IMHO 🙂

 

[Ch3nKo]

All you can do is do all your checks and then classify it as it is. Try not to go over as most HA's have people who will check over everything to make sure they are being carried out correctly and definatley dont go under. But there is always ways around that though (As in if I want to fail something I will find a way to fail it) The good thing about HA work is they cannot leave it and even the NCS will get done (eventually) or at least it is with the HA I do work for.

You will come across loads of bad installs I came across a flue today wasnt sure if it was vertical or horizontal it had a vertical flue kit on it but came out at 45deg through the roof no signs of damage, spillage and clipped so NCS it should of taken a photo but was too busy laughing to myself.

I think if i flag these things and there allowing me to rectify then surely its for the greater good. tomorrow brings a prv terminating out of the old cylinder overflow straight over a patio area but from what i can gather this is ntcs at worst or more likely to be a BR issue. I cant get over the sheer laziness and disregard to MI's in the last 2 days.

 

[diamondgas]

I cant get over the sheer laziness and disregard to MI's in the last 2 days.

Real world .... for me...35yrs!! ................. Do your job to the best of your ability and as the years past you'll learn to discern IMHO 🙂

 

[Millsy 82]

I flag up everything I see and then go back to rectify it and your right it is for the greater good. What you have to remember is there are a fair few HA tenants who will either know their rights or will soon find them out and will not care less about yourself when it comes to them suing if something happens when you dont pick it up. But to this day not 1 tenant has allowed me to turn off their boiler for an AR but as long as I have that paperwork im happy.

How half these installs have been allowed I cant work out but thats not my job.

 

[Ch3nKo]

not sure if its the same for you milsy but a contractor was providing the installs and cp12s so it was all "in house" for them so easy to put these installs in and sign them off for x amount of time. until now. your dead right about them knowing "their rights" if only some of them had half a brain they could take HA's for a complete ride

 

[Millsy 82]

It's the same I installed for HA years ago and we did a good job but done of the other contractors banged them in. But then we used to get inspections. All ours passed theirs didn't. But it's like that private as well but there does seem to be a lot more that haven't been checked properly for the past 5-10-15 years and I'm flagging them up now. On my last company it took for me to do this to bring the other lads standards up as soon as the boss called them in 1 by 1 saying you passed this last year and its now failed with an AR they soon started checking flues etc and the main thing was taking fires out and checking catchment spaces and chimneys