Atag One Controller or similar?

[Jem16]

I'm looking to replace my combi boiler and have probably decided on an Atag boiler - IC Economiser 35 plus.

I cannot decide which smart controller to go for - either Atag One or something similar like Nest.

Can anyone help me out in choosing please?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Hive

 

[Scott_D]

Both will work with the ATAG it uses open therm

 

[Jem16]

Hive

Thanks. Any particular reason why Hive and not Atag One?

 

[Jem16]

Both will work with the ATAG it uses open therm

Yes OpenTherm is important from what I've read. However looking to see what might be the best smart controller to use or is it really a subjective question?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Thanks. Any particular reason why Hive and not Atag One?

Hive will not randomly bring the boiler on during the night.

 

[Jem16]

Hive will not randomly bring the boiler on during the night.

So you're saying you have come across the Atag One doing so?

Is Hive better than Nest in your opinion? However I don't think Hive supports OpenTherm and I want that function.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Of you are not using the open therm yes. But no If you are.

 

[Jem16]

Of you are not using the open therm yes. But no If you are.

Ah right. Sorry I added on that OpenTherm was wanted so Hive is out.

 

[king of pipes]

Not atag one a pita I have one believe me you dont want one I am swopping it for a nest paired to a Google home mini , cant fault the boiler though . Kop

 

[Jem16]

Not atag one a pita I have one believe me you dont want one I am swopping it for a nest paired to a Google home mini , cant fault the boiler though . Kop

Thanks Kop. Can I ask what you don't particularly like about it?

 

[king of pipes]

It will not pair with the virgin network very easily , is difficult to set up and the app is not user friendly

 

[Jem16]

It will not pair with the virgin network very easily , is difficult to set up and the app is not user friendly

Thanks. I managed to get a look at the app and agree that it is a bit clunky. It does at least have a boost function which I’m surprised Nest does not. I thought the Atag One might work best though as designed to work with its boilers. I believe it allows remote diagnostics but is that necessary?

I’ve now had 3 quotes for an Atag boiler with Atag One or Nest - mostly the IC Economiser 35 Plus and the 27 Plus. Two quotes are fairly close but one is way higher. It’s replacing a combi in the same position - only difference would be running the condensing pipe and running cabling for the controller. Boiler is in a garage.

The 35 Plus is £2650 or £2845 ( 27 Plus would be £175 cheaper ). The one that’s way out is just under £3800 for the 27 Plus.

Have I got two reasonable quotes and one very odd quote or have I got one reasonable quote and 2 amazing quotes?

 

[king of pipes]

Go with the 35 IC economiser far better hot water delivery , One controller look good has some good features but I can't get on with it swapped from sky to virgin and hadn't worked since, upgraded my phone and lost the app tried downloading again and reconnecting but no joy , just use it as a manual stat till I get time to swop it . Good luck kop

 

[Jem16]

Go with the 35 IC economiser far better hot water delivery ,

Yes I think that would be my preferred choice. I know you haven’t seen the job but based on what I’ve said, do those 2 quotes look reasonable?

I just cannot fathom how the cheaper boiler is £1000 dearer than the other two.

One controller look good has some good features but I can't get on with it swapped from sky to virgin and hadn't worked since, upgraded my phone and lost the app tried downloading again and reconnecting but no joy , just use it as a manual stat till I get time to swop it . Good luck kop

I’ve come across pairing problems with Virgin before so maybe that’s more the issue with yours?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Depends on engineer prices and if VAT is applied. Every engineer is different. The cheapest quote isn’t necessarily the best and vice versa.

Was any of them recommended to you?

 

[Jem16]

Depends on engineer prices and if VAT is applied. Every engineer is different. The cheapest quote isn’t necessarily the best and vice versa.

I was actually considering the middle price as he has fitted around 30 Atag boilers before. The cheapest one hasn’t as yet although ATAG said that they have one of their own engineers on site too at the first installation.

The dearest one probably has the most experience with Atag boilers but I can’t justify an extra £1000 for a cheaper boiler.

Was any of them recommended to you?

No personal recommendations as no-one I know has had one installed. It’s been Worcester Bosch boilers which I was going to go with till I did some further research into plastic parts and aluminium heat exchangers.

I’ve been going by reviews online and how the engineer came over. The middle one has impressed me so far with his knowledge and communication. Even the cheapest one has been good so far with communication.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Have you looked at Vaillant?

 

[Jem16]

Have you looked at Vaillant?

Yes I have and also Viessmann. All seem to get a good name and have the stainless steel heat exchanger. I’m just leaning slightly more towards Atag with its 10 year standard warranty and lifetime heat exchanger warranty. I know Viessmann can do 10 year warranty as well through accredited installers.

 

[Harvest Fields]

So can Vaillant. A heat exchanger is only as good as all the other parts though to be honest.

 

[Jem16]

So can Vaillant. A heat exchanger is only as good as all the other parts though to be honest.

Yes I agree. I've looked at all the better ones and got quotes for them all. Difficult to make a choice at times as every installer has their own favourites but I've tried to choose from firms that don't just stick to one make.

 

[Scott_D]

Do the quotes include a magnetic filter?
What boiler is being replaced?
A new gas run might be needed hence the higher quote.

 

[king of pipes]

Maybe ? , Atag deal direct with the Installer I am registered with them I dont think either quote is far off although agreed £3800 for the 27 is a bit much, go with who you feel most comfortable with . Kop

 

[Jem16]

Do the quotes include a magnetic filter?

Yes in all of them.

What boiler is being replaced?

A Vokera Linea 28. Yes it will need a run of pipe to nearest drain but all are aware of that and quoted for it.

A new gas run might be needed hence the higher quote.

No new gas run needed nor quoted for in any of the three. I’ve a 22mm pipe running into the garage going down to 15mm to connect to boiler. If any new pipe is needed it’s only for the last small section and all are aware of this.

The only quote I have for a new pipe run is the very first and that was for Worcester Bosch. The engineer didn’t seem to look past the 15mm pipe that he saw going into the boiler itself. All the others, including the engineer who checked out my appliances after a recent SGN pipe upgrade work in the street, noted the 22mm pipe.

 

[Jem16]

I am registered with them I dont think either quote is far off

Thanks.

although agreed £3800 for the 27 is a bit much,

Yes that was the one that was way out.

go with who you feel most comfortable with . Kop

Possibly the one that was the dearest would have been my 1st choice but I can’t justify that extra cost.

The middle one is a close second to who I feel comfortable with. He has taken a lot of time to answer all my questions.

Just need to make my mind up on the smart controller.

 

[king of pipes]

You will need to upgrade the gas supply for the 35 - 22mm wont give you enough gas . Kop

 

[Jem16]

You will need to upgrade the gas supply for the 35 - 22mm wont give you enough gas . Kop

Thanks. I'll make sure I check this out with the installer.

 

[Jem16]

Maybe ? , Atag deal direct with the Installer I am registered with them I dont think either quote is far off although agreed £3800 for the 27 is a bit much, go with who you feel most comfortable with . Kop

Can I ask you a couple more questions please?

The installer who gave me the quote for £3800 has now come back with a new price after I said that an extra £1000 was too much of a difference. He said that his quote was including a price rise that Atag were putting on at the end of the month - is this true?

His new price after taking off that increase and removing a few non-essentials ( why include them then??) is just under £3200 and is for the 35 Plus. He does charge VAT though whereas the other two are non VAT registered. Still £300/£500 dearer but at least closer. I'm just a little wary of someone who can drop their prices by around £600 and include the better boiler.

My other question surrounds the smart controller. I'm being told by one of them that to use OpenTherm, I must use the Atag controller as otherwise it would invalidate the warranty. So if I chose Nest he couldn't connect it to OpenTherm connections. Again is this true?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Yes to the price rise. I have had a letter. (Not sure how much though off the top of my head)
Speak to ATAG themselves if I was you. Just to make sure.

 

[king of pipes]

Yes there has been a price increase the first one in 4 years I can't see a problem with fitting a nest I have one sitting here ready to swap , as I said go with your gut feeling don't be afraid to go with the newbie guy the first install gets set up and commissioned along side a Atag engineer and he must demonstrate hes more than competent for Atag to supply him . Kop

 

[Jem16]

as I said go with your gut feeling don't be afraid to go with the newbie guy

Unfortunately the newbie (and the cheapest) is the one that has just told me he couldn't fit Nest to OpenTherm as Worcester Bosch once told him that it would invalidate the warranty if he connected to OpenTherm without using their own controller.

Now I would have expected him to check with Atag first.

the first install gets set up and commissioned along side a Atag engineer and he must demonstrate hes more than competent for Atag to supply him . Kop

Yes Atag did say that to me when I phoned them a couple of days ago. I did also ask about using Nest as opposed to Atag One but didn't specifically ask about OpenTherm.

Argh - this is difficult!!

My initial feeling was to choose the dearest guy as he was very efficient in communicating and has excellent reviews online. He's also the most experienced having installed around 50 to 60 Atag boilers. However he's £300/£500 dearer evn though he's just reduced his price by £600 and now giving me the 35 Plus as opposed to the 27 Plus. My feeling is why did he quote so high in the first place - yes part of it is down to VAT but not all of it.

The middle guy has experience and has fitted around 3o Atag boilers. His communication has always been great, no VAT as he stays below the level for VAT registration. Works on personal recommendation and word of mouth. One Google review I've read is excellent but also good recommendations via LinkedIn. Seems to purposely choose to work less hours than some but this may be a good thing.

 

[king of pipes]

Number 2 sounds very much like me 😵 40 percent tax and do the vat mans work for free no thankyou , i pick and choose my jobs work on word of mouth recommendations and am on linkedin as is middle man , your choice but hes looking favourite . Kop

 

[Scott_D]

Number 2 sounds very much like me 😵 40 percent tax and do the vat mans work for free no thankyou , i pick and choose my jobs work on word of mouth recommendations and am on linkedin as is middle man , your choice but hes looking favourite . Kop

Is it you?

 

[Jem16]

Is it you?

Not unless he's far travelled.

 

[Brambles]

If you have a larger system, particularly one with rooms that are not used everyday, look at Honeywell Evohome.

It is the most expensive of the proven systems available - but it allows each room to be zoned independently.

 

[Jem16]

If you have a larger system, particularly one with rooms that are not used everyday, look at Honeywell Evohome.

It is the most expensive of the proven systems available - but it allows each room to be zoned independently.

Thanks I've had a look at Evohome but I think it's really too much for my needs. Yes I have a couple of bedrooms only in use when visitors come but turning down the TRVs cope with that.

 

[Jem16]

Just coming back to this to ask about weather compensation. It seems that on outdoor sensor can be fitted and/or use the weather compensation via the Atag One.

Is one method better than the other and basically is it a good thing to use?

 

[Brambles]

Correct, weather compensation is excellent, but it should be wired through a relay to ensure that HW operates effectively in the summer months

 

[Scott_D]

Just coming back to this to ask about weather compensation. It seems that on outdoor sensor can be fitted and/or use the weather compensation via the Atag One.

Is one method better than the other and basically is it a good thing to use?

The sensor will be more accurate
The app goes by the local
Weather station
The sensor can be awkward to mount in a suitable location

 

[Brambles]

North facing wall, or it won’t be as effective as it should be

 

[Jem16]

The sensor will be more accurate
The app goes by the local
Weather station
The sensor can be awkward to mount in a suitable location

Thanks. So the sensor takes the outside weather temperature. Do you then just set up the desired temperature on the room thermostat along with whatever times you want?

 

[Brambles]

Correct

 

[Jem16]

Correct

Thanks. Now to find a suitable position for the sensor.

 

[Brambles]

A North facing wall

 

[Jem16]

A North facing wall

Ok. North East wall may be better and more shaded in my case.

 

[Brambles]

Two obvious points:

Ensure that HW is not controlled by the external sensor - not an issue in winter, but it will be in the summer.

If the sensor is positioned towards the East, ensure that no early morning winter sun reaches the sensor - it will deliver cool CH flow

 

[Jem16]

Two obvious points:

Ensure that HW is not controlled by the external sensor - not an issue in winter, but it will be in the summer.

Will do thanks.

If the sensor is positioned towards the East, ensure that no early morning winter sun reaches the sensor - it will deliver cool CH flow

Picking a very shaded section where the sun never reaches due to evergreen trees. Checked that this morning.

I want to make sure I’m doing the right thing as the installer has said that some people have had issues in similar properties to mine where they can’t get the hearing on due to it being warm outside but not inside.

It’s an old 1938 property with thick stone at the front. Front rooms remain cool as they’re north facing but back rooms can be quite warm, especially on sunny days.

 

[Jem16]

Ok all up and running now and just getting to grips with the various settings.

I'd particularly like some info on the weather compensation part using Atag boilers. Can anyone help on here or should I start a new thread?

 

[Scott_D]

Any pictures?

 

[Jem16]

Any pictures?

Of the boiler you mean?

 

[Scott_D]

Yes. Would be good to see the new display

 

[Jem16]

Yes. Would be good to see the new display

Hope this is ok. Still to lag the pipes as it's in a garage.

 

[Brambles]

From the picture of the boiler display you have posted, the external temperature sensor is not showing as connected. The logo displaying is an internet temperature.

 

[Jem16]

From the picture of the boiler display you have posted, the external temperature sensor is not showing as connected.

The boiler display is showing the house symbol beside the thermometer. According to the manual that means the outside sensor is connected. I’ve seen it connected too.

Are you looking at the display on the Atag One Zone controller? It does appear to show an internet symbol and probably because I selected Weather Compensation as opposed to Room Thermostat from within the controller’s menu. They’ve changed the Atag One controller recently and I can’t find a detailed user menu yet. The new version is called Atag One Zone controller and its menu is slightly different.

So basically I’m trying to figure out how best to use the weather compensation - via boiler’s menu or controller’s menu.

Also what decides when you want heating on? My last boiler used a digital thermostat to control it. So basically I set the time and what temperature I wanted during that time. I can still set up that schedule but how does the weather compensation come into it now?

 

[Brambles]

Ok, you are probably correct - but my ET display does not look like thst

 

[Jem16]

Ok, you are probably correct - but my ET display does not look like thst

That’s the key to the display.

Can anyone help with my questions on best way to use weather compensation?

 

[Brambles]

Boiler control is still via timed thermostatic controller.

Weather compensation (WC) only adjusts the boiler flow temperature - to a set curve -according to the specific recorded outside temperature. So on a hot day outside, if you set the heating on and the room thermostat to 30 degrees, the heating will come on, but with a low flow temperature - as the room then warms up very slowly, the call for heat will be lengthy. Normally after a continuous call for heat of over 40 minutes, WC may be temporarily deactivated.

Does that make sense?

 

[Jem16]

Boiler control is still via timed thermostatic controller.

Ok got that.

Weather compensation (WC) only adjusts the boiler flow temperature - to a set curve -according to the specific recorded outside temperature. So on a hot day outside, if you set the heating on and the room thermostat to 30 degrees, the heating will come on, but with a low flow temperature - as the room then warms up very slowly, the call for heat will be lengthy. Normally after a continuous call for heat of over 40 minutes, WC may be temporarily deactivated.

Ok. So last night outside temperature was around 13 degrees. Thermostat was set to 20 degrees and was around 19.1 degrees. Boiler came on and flow rate seemed to be around 35 degrees or so and radiators warm rather than hot which seems fine. Temperature never really reached 20 degrees but was around 19.5 which is probably near enough.

Does that sound like it’s doing the job?

Does that make sense?

Getting there thanks. Just not sure on best Room Influence setting though. Boiler instructions show a minimum of 0 and maximum of 3 and seems to suggest using 0 so Off. Atag One controller seems to show the same 3 choices.

This is the bit I’m struggling with.

I’d also like confirmation that the Atag One is using the outside sensor and not taking temperature from the Internet. I believe it uses outside sensor if connected but would like to make sure.

 

[Scott_D]

Has the installer gone through any of this with you?

 

[Jem16]

Has the installer gone through any of this with you?

To a certain extent, yes. However I think I'm more up to speed with this than he is to be honest. Plus I like to understand what's going on myself.

 

[Brambles]

To test the sensor - heat it with hair dryer - with the heating set to 25 degrees - the flow temperature should fall significantly.

The room influence setting should have been determined and set by your installer. The setting is to adjust the impact ( positive or negative ) of the precise positioning of the external sensor against the pre programmed temperature curves in the boiler software.

What you are aiming to achieve is to maximise the duration that the boiler is condensing ( ie. return flow below 55degrees C ) Obviously that is not the case on very cold days - where the driver is to maximise the flow temperature, whilst keeping the temperature delta across the heat exchanger to around 15 degrees C - I think, unless my memory fails me.

If you cannot reengage your installer, set the influence setting to 1. Stop tinkering and leave the system to operate. Observe how it behaves, then after a few weeks make any required adjustments and repeat the process again.

Constant adjustment of the system settings is unlikely to deliver an effective result.

Try to understand over time how the complete system behaves - optimisation ( if applicable), boiler modulation and external temperature flow temp compensation

Any questions get back to me

 

[Jem16]

Thank you - that's very helpful. I have done as you suggested apart from the hair dryer part as it's raining here just now. I'll monitor what goes on. So far the return flow has been in the 30 degrees area.

The installer was out again this morning just to finish off. I have spoken to him about this but he admits he's not totally sure on all of the weather compensation himself. He did offer to contact Atag and ask all the questions but I can probably do that myself if necessary.

I'll come back if I have more questions. I'll post up a screenshot of the system diagnostics too at some point.

Thank you again for your help.

 

[Flure1]

It will not pair with the virgin network very easily , is difficult to set up and the app is not user friendly

Just came across this.
I recently changed my Virgin Hub 3.0 to "Modem" and added a new Netgear wireless router.
The ATAG controler absolutely refuses to find the new wifi system.
ATAG help, isn't.

I'm going to change from the ATAG controller ASAP.

 

[king of pipes]

Just came across this.
I recently changed my Virgin Hub 3.0 to "Modem" and added a new Netgear wireless router.
The ATAG controler absolutely refuses to find the new wifi system.
ATAG help, isn't.

I'm going to change from the ATAG controller ASAP.

I fitted a Nest and it works perfectly. Kop

 

[Flure1]

Thank you.

I've asked the local guy (who also installed the system for me) to switch to a Nest.

He's trying to talk me into taking the new ATAG "Tado"?

Aside from that, ATAG have simply abandoned me. I was emailing and chatting on the phone to someone at ATAG who was trying to help me get the network configured, but he's just stopped responding. Absolutely shocking.

So, meantime, I can only set the controller manually.

I have no problems with the Boiler - it seems like a decent piece of kit and has been for the last 3 years. But the controller? Arghhh!

 

[king of pipes]

I can only speak from experience I'd have a nest every time.