Boiler fitting standard - Am I expecting too much?

[Gixxerman]

Just had a system boiler installed by a local small business. I went with him as he has been doing it for years and is "time served".
The install went without a hitch until they came to switch it on.

Problem 1:
It wouldn't work on heating but would on hot water. The sparky checked his wiring many times and still no joy. Their conclusion, the pump is not working correctly. They put on a nearly new pump (to keep costs down). This didn't fix the problem. Then they concur that 3-way valve is broken. And looking at it, it looked broken as the manual override lever was pushed into the unit. They took it apart and found that the gearbox was broken off inside. Now I know that the valve is less than a year old as I had it changed, and it worked with the old boiler. Could they have accidentally damaaged it when they were fitting stuff (magnaclean etc.) in the airing cupboard?
Problem 2:
They removed some of the old electrical connections as it needed new supplies and a maintained supply for the pump run-overrun circuit. But the just left the old wires in the wall in plastic trunking and just plonked the boiler over it. Now I have a lot of loose plaster and exposed plastic trunking which I can't get to as the boiler is covering it. I would have expected them to have prepared the wall first before hanging the boiler. The hole for the flue is not flush with the flue (the hole is slightly too big) and they didn't plaster round the flue either. Is this normal?

 

[migoplumber]

just sounds like people who didnt really care !

 

[stevetheplumber]

did they arrive on horses?

 

[Mbear]

did they arrive on horses?

And spurs on the rear of their boots?

 

[justlead1]

Hi Not making good around a flue is a bit iffy to say the least. I would get that attended to post haste. On the positive side your lucky to find someone who would get involved in the installation of second hand controls. Good Luck

 

[Gixxerman]

I have had him back for a look and he says I'm nitpicking.
But he has agreed to send round a builder to do a bit of plastering.
They did make good around the flue on the outside and the new brickwork is good, but they did not make good round the flue in the inside wall. I will be boxing in the piping and the flue anyhow so it won't be seen. I would like to plaster round the flue on the inside. I reckon a bit on pollyfila will do a better job though. Is there any issues with filling the gap between the flue and the wall?
To be fair, the boiler is in a corner of the kitchen and above the boiler behind where the pipes are, there is no plaster on the blocks at all from when he house was built. I am not bothered about a bit of mess as the kitchen is being replaced in 2 weeks time, and the sparky rewired the kitchen at the same time.

 

[Gixxerman]

Bloody nora!
Just got the bill. £2852.
Not happy. I have had a word with him and he said that that is the chespest he can make it. There was only 2 guys here for a day and a half.
£2000 (ex VAT) for the boiler swap, powerflush and magnaclean.
£236 (ex VAT) for TRV's and wireless room stat and 3 port valve.
£105 (ex VAT) labour for fitting TRV's and 3 port valve. This is extra labour as he said that the TRV's were not included in the original quote. I am sure that we discussed it that they were, but I did not have it in writing. It was a gentlemans agreement, but obviously he is not a gentleman.
The 3 port valve, was just bad luck and it was found to be broken. That kind of made sense as the rads got warm even when the controller was set to "hot water only". I am dissapointed that this was not picked up by British Gas during the last service. Shows how good they are.
£87 (ex VAT) for the sparky to wire it up.
Total bill £2428 + £424 VAT.
As he is worcester bosch accredited, it does come with a 5 year warrenty + an extra year as part of the scrappage.
There was a silver lining, it worked OK on 15mm gas pipe, which was a relief as no need to trail 22mm pipe all round the exterior of the house.
The flue gas analysis says that it is 98.6% efficient, which I find hard to believe as the Worsester Bocsh website only puts it at 90.1%.
Here are the details of the analysis provide by Anton analyser:-
O2 (%): 3.6
CO (ppm): 30
CO2 (%): 9.9
Ratio: 0.0003
Pressure (mBar): 0.07
Temp net (C): 36
Temp Flue (C): 59
Eff net (%): 98.6
XS Air (%): 20.6

 

[doitmyself]

The flue gas analysis says that it is 98.6% efficient, which I find hard to believe as the Worsester Bosch website only puts it at 90.1%.

Different ways of measuring efficiency!

The figure quoted on the WB website is the Annual Efficiency, calculated according to a formula. It's supposed to indicate the average efficiency over a year.

The analyser is giving an instantaneous result.

 

[dontknowitall]

Just had my inspection and he told me O2% should be between 5 and 6%.
The flue temperature is only 59C on those readings. How long did they run the boiler for before testing? Oil boilers should be run for at least 15 minutes (and presumably gas too?)
Also CO2% (again for oil and I assume similar to gas) is usually 10.5% to 12.5%, normally 11.0-11.5%.

If you look in the boiler's manual you should be able to work out what the readings should be and match them with your print out.

Re prices and customer service, you might want to check out his qualifications. Unfortunately these types of people give us all a bad name, especially when we get something wrong and try to rectify matters as quickly as possible (without charging extra).

 

[stevetheplumber]

Bloody nora!
Just got the bill. £2852.
Not happy. I have had a word with him and he said that that is the chespest he can make it. There was only 2 guys here for a day and a half.
£2000 (ex VAT) for the boiler swap, powerflush and magnaclean.
£236 (ex VAT) for TRV's and wireless room stat and 3 port valve.
£105 (ex VAT) labour for fitting TRV's and 3 port valve. This is extra labour as he said that the TRV's were not included in the original quote. I am sure that we discussed it that they were, but I did not have it in writing. It was a gentlemans agreement, but obviously he is not a gentleman.
The 3 port valve, was just bad luck and it was found to be broken. That kind of made sense as the rads got warm even when the controller was set to "hot water only". I am dissapointed that this was not picked up by British Gas during the last service. Shows how good they are.
£87 (ex VAT) for the sparky to wire it up.
Total bill £2428 + £424 VAT.
As he is worcester bosch accredited, it does come with a 5 year warrenty + an extra year as part of the scrappage.
There was a silver lining, it worked OK on 15mm gas pipe, which was a relief as no need to trail 22mm pipe all round the exterior of the house.
The flue gas analysis says that it is 98.6% efficient, which I find hard to believe as the Worsester Bocsh website only puts it at 90.1%.
Here are the details of the analysis provide by Anton analyser:-
O2 (%): 3.6
CO (ppm): 30
CO2 (%): 9.9
Ratio: 0.0003
Pressure (mBar): 0.07
Temp net (C): 36
Temp Flue (C): 59
Eff net (%): 98.6
XS Air (%): 20.6

doesnt sound like a horrendous price especially when youve priced in the 5 year gaurantee obviously it depends where in uk you are and you dont say how many trvs the inside if theres no plaster on the wall i can understand them being reluctant to spoil your industrial breeze block look with some plaster round the flue

 

[Plucky]

Just had my inspection and he told me O2% should be between 5 and 6%.
The flue temperature is only 59C on those readings. How long did they run the boiler for before testing? Oil boilers should be run for at least 15 minutes (and presumably gas too?)
Also CO2% (again for oil and I assume similar to gas) is usually 10.5% to 12.5%, normally 11.0-11.5%.

If you look in the boiler's manual you should be able to work out what the readings should be and match them with your print out.

Re prices and customer service, you might want to check out his qualifications. Unfortunately these types of people give us all a bad name, especially when we get something wrong and try to rectify matters as quickly as possible (without charging extra).

The readings are good. Dont get confused with an old boiler with a newer boiler with a zero governer.

The WB should have a CO2% of 9.8 at max rate with a tolerance of 0.5% which has rfecently changed as they used to give a tolerance of 0.2%



As for the price, Its not too bad. However next time get something in writing.

 

[dontknowitall]

Thanks for that Plucky. I think it's probably best for everyone if I keep my nose away from gas and stick to me boilers!

 

[oldplumber]

I wouldnt box in your flue as i for one like to see it on servicing and it has access points for the fga. Last baxi i worked on was completely boxed in and it all had to come off to A. access the boiler and B. access the flue, i wasnt able to reach it from outside for the fga probe as it was 3 stories up.

As for the prices, not over the top, did you not offer the coffee and tea, might have knocked £50 off the ticket price!

 

[Bernie2]

The problem is that markets dictate price rather than worth perhaps.

Some places seem to want you to buy an empty bag for as much as they can get out of you. Its become a sort of game, and the winner is the one who can get the most money for the least work or cheapest low quality item.

Lets also be frank, many people perhaps feel their work is worth much more than it really is.

Years ago a call out during normal working hours did not attract a premium, now days companies just charge whatever they think you will pay.

Some Plumbing rates seem to work out at fantastic hourly rates. The usual answer is that "They can afford it!"

Yet! People moan about bankers making a shed load of money, but do the same themselves in a smaller way perhaps.

The problem is, the UK does not have much of a consumer champion.

But then I often wonder about that as well. Some of our institutions like the Institute of Plumbers, while doing good work also assess charges well over the top. And British Standards charges are a laugh. It would be funny if safety was not involved. This of course does not take into account all the ACS and Plumbing course charges.

Perhaps we should have national set prices, then companies could make more or less profit by working more efficiently, instead of just asking the customer for more.

The thing is, many of our old industries worked that way, until the low wage economies started to compete and we lost out all over the place.

Today, Brit companies still seem to cut staff and wages before they consider more efficient ways of working.

We should consider the customer in the deal and ask ourselves "Are we really being fair to all!"

Who said £2850 is a fair price for perhaps £850 for materials and 2.5 days work?

How can the customer easily compare prices?

The thing is if we don't voluntarily control prices to a reasonable level and stop thinking of self employment as a way to earn as much as Wayne Rooney the government could step in, if people moan to much.

Change seems to be already coming anyway. The big companies are now selling "roll ups" or all in one packages. In other words looking after your mechanical services for one fixed price.

People will probably flock to them if they get the price right not the small guy who charges the roof.

Lets be honest the big companies can probably under cut the small guy on economies of scale. To them its a sort of gamble, like selling an insurance policy. The chances being that out of a thousand customers less than a hundred will require work costing more than the premiums. That leaves loads of dosh from the others to make a good profit.

The small guy can't compete in that market.

But you may be able to get a good customer base by charging fair prices and doing quality work efficiently.

 

[doitmyself]

The problem is that markets dictate price rather than worth perhaps.

The "law" of supply and demand. If more plumbers/carpenters/electricians are trained, then the customer has more choice and prices will come down. No wonder those already in the trade advise potential entrants not to bother. They can see their own income dropping.

Let's also be frank, many people perhaps feel their work is worth much more than it really is.

I think all would have been more accurate.

Some Plumbing rates seem to work out at fantastic hourly rates. The usual answer is that "They can afford it!"

Pricing according to size and location of house! My son used to work with a self-employed electrician whose customer-base were extremely rich (multi-millionaires). They didn't bat an eyelid at bills of £100 for changing a few light bulbs.

People moan about bankers making a shed load of money, but do the same themselves in a smaller way perhaps.

A banker does a deal which makes his employers a billion pounds profit, so they pay him a bonus of one million pounds. That's 0.1% of the profit. A plumber installs a rad valve for £100. Actual cost, including materials and overheads, say £50 - profit 100%.

The problem is, the UK does not have much of a consumer champion.

The law is also too lax. I know the last thing we need is more laws - the last government though the answer to everything was to make a law - but there are some areas crying out for legislation. The "builder" is one. Anyone can set themselves up as a builder. They do not even need experience and there are no formal qualifications.

Perhaps we should have national set prices, then companies could make more or less profit by working more efficiently, instead of just asking the customer for more.

Price Controls! Harold Wilson tried that; didn't work.

Today, Brit companies still seem to cut staff and wages before they consider more efficient ways of working.

But they would say that is making the company more efficient.

Who said £2850 is a fair price for perhaps £850 for materials and 2.5 days work?

How can the customer easily compare prices?

By insisting on a written breakdown of the costs. The tradesman won't like it, but that's tough luck. If I take my car for a service or to have any work done, I get a fully detailed invoice showing parts and labour separately for each job done. Why should a carpenter/plumber be any different? I'm not asking him to show how much mark up he puts on the parts or the profit he makes on his labour charge But it does enable me better to compare quotations.

But you may be able to get a good customer base by charging fair prices and doing quality work efficiently.

Hear! Hear!

 

[prs1]

If u take your car for a service u get charged probably a similer hourly rate for a mechanic to what a heating engineer should ern (both skilled men) plus they still make there mark up on a 5 quid gallon of oil.

as said above and quite rite i always give an estimate then if there genuine i will supply ful quote.although u dont win em all but u dont get anywere buy not giving the customer what they want!