Boiler installed by non-Gas Safe engineer. Are we liable?

[Sprintmancolin]

Hi all,

We took a plumber on to fit our new central heating system and boiler. His website said he was Gas Safe registered but it has since been discovered that he wasn't.

We have contacted Gas Safe and they are coming round to inspect the installation for safety etc.

We know that installing by a non Gas Safe registered person is illegal, but who is liable? We are now worried that in some way we have broken the law because we are the homeowners.

Any clarification much appreciated please.

Thanks.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

he is for false advertising ,did anyone else sign off his work?

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

If you have spoken to GS then you already know this but, please turn off the boiler and do NOT use it.
You should have checked the guys GS card before any work was undertaken, how did it come to light that he wasn't GS registered after he had started?

 

[Reg Man]

I hind site you should have checked the business out, but they have committed the offence, so you are not going to be in trouble for it. Lets hope that GSR do a proper in depth report and HSE take it forward to address the breach of gas safety regulations.

 

[Ermintrude]

Hope! Yes you should have asked to see his card. Not really your fault it's lack of education of public in general and us Brits being too trusty, do you check dentists not been struck off when you get a filling?

 

[Sprintmancolin]

Hi all and thanks for your responses. Yes, in hindsight we should have checked his card but his website said he was registered and he also kept telling us he was registered. We were very naive I guess. It all came to light when we asked for the building regs certificate and he came clean. Gas safe are now on the case and glad to hear that we're not liable. Thanks again.

 

[chris watkins]

I bet he was the cheapest quote though !!

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I bet he was the cheapest quote though !!

Very probably :lol:

 

[REDSAW]

all's for sure, its going to cost the difference (and more) from that quote for the works and the highest to get the boiler signed off as it should be removed and re-fitted!!

think on the lines of hiring some one to dispose of some household waste but the carrier is not registered and its found fly tipped!!!

 

[Centralheatking]

I have read your post carefully - quite obviously things have gone wrong

You have not been as vigilant as you should have been - and your
'contracter' even worse. You will in my opinion NEVER get anything back from your fitter
if he is not registered he will have no assets - and was a cowboy.


You have broken no law - I would get the best heating outfit in your area in to check it all over
pay them - do what they say - get peace of mind and a report / certificate - move on and forget

CHK

We took a plumber on to fit our new central heating system and boiler. His website said he was Gas Safe registered but it has since been discovered that he wasn't.

We have contacted Gas Safe and they are coming round to inspect the installation for safety etc.

We know that installing by a non Gas Safe registered person is illegal, but who is liable? We are now worried that in some way we have broken the law because we are the homeowners.

Any clarification much appreciated please.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

 

[gasmanrob]

Hi,

could you please keep us posted on what happens to him and what is said regarding the safety of the appliance.

Many people post on a topic and never return but this is of interest to us in as much that we want to know what gas safe do with our registration money in regards to chasing prosecutions

 

[lame plumber]

heres an interesting one, I IDed a boiler a while back , gas safe have inspected and written to installer to make good faults, but owners dont want him back, so I get to be paid to do work. According to GS lady, if I do work, case closed and the installer isnt chased up for dangerous install!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Sprintmancolin]

Thanks for your responses. Will let you know what happens unless it goes to law which I obviously won't be able to say anything in order not to prejudice proceedings.

 

[Jimbob]

Nah, gas safe don't give a monkeys if nobody is hurt, just a slap on wrist is what most seem to get

 

[chris watkins]

heres an interesting one, I IDed a boiler a while back , gas safe have inspected and written to installer to make good faults, but owners dont want him back, so I get to be paid to do work. According to GS lady, if I do work, case closed and the installer isnt chased up for dangerous install!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Outrages isn't it, I wonder what they would do if you lot threatened to withhold your fee's until something was done to stop this ??
I know, you would get taken to court & prosecuted for working (while not being a member) i.e. illegally.

 

[Reg Man]

Gas Safe have no powers what's so ever. They pass the report on to the HSE. If the HSE don't think it's robust enough case they will not waste our tax payers money on it.

 

[poorman]

I have looked into 'gas safe' spending hours on the legal aspects and from what I've found out the fitting of gas installations is a no mans land, anyone can buy install any gas fittings, boilers or pipe work.
What you cannot do is connect it to a gas supply!
My quest was to find out why, when I need a gas certificate, gas fitters/companies can charge whatever they like, my gas safe certificate cost £88, for less than ten minutes work, the quotes I got were from over £200 down to the £88 I eventually paid.
I can remember when gas safety was under the 'corgi' banner and one engineer laughingly said that gas safe certificates were like blank checks, posh house posh price and as they were required by law people would cough up.
The whole industry has become a closely guarded masonic like business, with trained fitters unwilling to take on apprentices because they know at the end of the day once qualified they will leave and work for themselves.
There will be howls of derision over what I have posted but gas fitters are not alone, question when you rip out copper pipes and old copper boilers do you deduct the scrap value from the customers bill? There is a thread on this site that goes into the ins and outs of stropping cable and how much 'cash' they get from the scrapman, taxable never, its a perk of the trade boys perk of the trade

 

[SimonG]

I have looked into 'gas safe' spending hours on the legal aspects and from what I've found out the fitting of gas installations is a no mans land, anyone can buy install any gas fittings, boilers or pipe work.
What you cannot do is connect it to a gas supply!
My quest was to find out why, when I need a gas certificate, gas fitters/companies can charge whatever they like, my gas safe certificate cost £88, for less than ten minutes work, the quotes I got were from over £200 down to the £88 I eventually paid.
I can remember when gas safety was under the 'corgi' banner and one engineer laughingly said that gas safe certificates were like blank checks, posh house posh price and as they were required by law people would cough up.
The whole industry has become a closely guarded masonic like business, with trained fitters unwilling to take on apprentices because they know at the end of the day once qualified they will leave and work for themselves.
There will be howls of derision over what I have posted but gas fitters are not alone, question when you rip out copper pipes and old copper boilers do you deduct the scrap value from the customers bill? There is a thread on this site that goes into the ins and outs of stropping cable and how much 'cash' they get from the scrapman, taxable never, its a perk of the trade boys perk of the trade

........and your point is?

 

[Ermintrude]

i pay tax on my scrap, take on apprentices and hate custards, well 60% of the self righteous idiots! would you risk your neck for less than £35p/h? i think not/ when you go to work in your office do you pay for your desk, all the equipment in that office and put up with ducks rse custards? thought not.

I have to pay tax on scrap, HMRC take a dim view of me having unexplained £200 to £700 into my bank most weeks?

 

[Dotty]

I have looked into 'gas safe' spending hours on the legal aspects and from what I've found out the fitting of gas installations is a no mans land, anyone can buy install any gas fittings, boilers or pipe work.
What you cannot do is connect it to a gas supply!
My quest was to find out why, when I need a gas certificate, gas fitters/companies can charge whatever they like, my gas safe certificate cost £88, for less than ten minutes work, the quotes I got were from over £200 down to the £88 I eventually paid.
I can remember when gas safety was under the 'corgi' banner and one engineer laughingly said that gas safe certificates were like blank checks, posh house posh price and as they were required by law people would cough up.
The whole industry has become a closely guarded masonic like business, with trained fitters unwilling to take on apprentices because they know at the end of the day once qualified they will leave and work for themselves.
There will be howls of derision over what I have posted but gas fitters are not alone, question when you rip out copper pipes and old copper boilers do you deduct the scrap value from the customers bill? There is a thread on this site that goes into the ins and outs of stropping cable and how much 'cash' they get from the scrapman, taxable never, its a perk of the trade boys perk of the trade

GSIUR. Tells you all you need to know.

 

[Ermintrude]

must have been some pretty blinkered research, what did you do interview your installer?

few links you probably should look at, obviously after you have read the boiler Manufactures installation instructions ..... which tell you the legislative requirements on the first ten pages?

http://www.hse.gov.uk/Pubns/priced/l56.pdf

Building Act 1984

The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

 

[Dotty]

And as for the Masonic comparison, being as I have a foot in both camps I think I can be a little more authoritative than most.

There are secrets in both, yes you are right, but one camp keeps those secrets because a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. And the the other camp keeps secrets because we can.

 

[poorman]

No I didn't just 'interview my installer!
I spoke to the HSE, Customer service 0845 345 0055
Gas Safe, Gas Safe Register | Ensure your gas engineer is registered.
Local trading standards,
Local authority.
"Anyone employed to work on gas appliances in domestic premises must be a Gas Safe registered engineer" note the word 'EMPLOYED'
Its all a bit protective, what you do for a living is your choice.
Another area is wood burning stoves, ring around and get a quote for the installation and you'll be told that to install one "Liner and stove installations should be undertaken by a HETAS engineer to HETAS regulations." which is, if you wise up on the legal aspects is not true, the work has to be signed off by the local building control officer. Installing a wood burning stove, I know, can save you thousands of pounds.
As for scrap copper, words like 'beer money' spring to mind (not my words) and I don't think people pay tax on their beer money. Everyone holds up their hands and says 'I pay tax' when it is plainly obvious that many don't.
http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/central-heating-forum/35072-scrap-copper-what-do-you-do-3.html
Smileys behind postings tell the real truth.

 

[Dotty]

You obviously have no sense of humour.

You also fail to comprehend the multiple references to competency.

 

[Dotty]

And I'm starting to think you're on a wind up. I should let it go if I were you.

 

[Reg Man]

Quote> I've found out the fitting of gas installations is a no mans land, anyone can buy install any gas fittings, boilers or pipe work.
What you cannot do is connect it to a gas supply!<Quote, from Post 17. This quote it is inaccurate. You are not allowed to carryout gas work unless you are competent to do so(Competence = Someone with the relevant Training, qualification and experience). If you are employed or self employed to carryout gas work, then you must be registered with the approved body (GSR at the current time).

 

[Reg Man]

Quote>My quest was to find out why, when I need a gas certificate, gas fitters/companies can charge whatever they like, my gas safe certificate cost £88, for less than ten minutes work, the quotes I got were from over £200 down to the £88 I eventually paid.<QUOTE. That is because reputable Gas engineers do not want to sign off none competent gas work. The overhead costs of maintaining competence and registration is substantial and therefore the charge rates will be higher.

 

[Ermintrude]

Ok. It's the building act 1985. Read that and then answer your own question. Any heat producing appliance must be installed in accordance with the applicable statutory instrument..... For gas I think it's GIUR 1998. But I'm sure when u spoke to the HSE they said all you needed was a pen and a ruler to make your own self certification reort.

 

[Centralheatking]

Sanity prevails - well done Crop CHK

GSIUR. Tells you all you need to know.

 

[Centralheatking]

The reality is that fitting gas and screwing up is a criminal offence - including
custodial sentances even for 1st offence - CHK

The wake up bit if you are illegally fitting gas will be
in a prison CHK

 

[Sprintmancolin]

So, I think everyone's agreed that I'm not liable (as the homeowner) but the fitter will be liable?

Thanks.

 

[jonnyswamp]

The legalities of being Gassafe etc have already been covered, but I suspect you'll still believe what you want
As for scrap cylinders and pipe work etc, I tell my customers that they can have whatever they want as long as they remove it, other than that I remove it without charge and keep it, my apprentices are usually very happy with this.These would be the apprentices you say that we don't like employing due to creating more local competition
You need to shut up and wise up and stop being so bitter

 

[Dotty]

Steady Jonny.

The boy's entitled to his opinions.

Even if they are misguided.

 

[Killy Bing]

Apprentices get taken on all time and out the door just as quick when all they do is smoke, eat, play on the phone, ask what time your finishing repeatedly and are unwilling to do hard work.

sourced from a newly qualified apprentice who got off his backside.

<. <. <. <

 

[Centralheatking]

anyway - how did your meal etc go last night mr Crop - CHK

 

[Dotty]

anyway - how did your meal etc go last night mr Crop - CHK

Mrs Croppie is a very satisfied woman.......

What about Mrs CHK?

 

[Centralheatking]

In plaster Left leg from ankle - to hip - immobile - stuck on grd floor 4 4 weeks
not a happy bunny - Chk

 

[IDCHAPPY]

Apprentices get taken on all time and out the door just as quick when all they do is smoke, eat, play on the phone, ask what time your finishing repeatedly and are unwilling to do hard work.

sourced from a newly qualified apprentice who got off his backside.

<. <. <. <

You've seen our apprentice then? (bar the smoking part :lol: )

 

[Sprintmancolin]

In case anyone is interested, GS made a report to the HSE. I haven't heard anything from the HSE. Hopefully they'll be taking action, but who knows. Trading Standards are doing nothing (per a telephone call I had with them), other than writing to him to give him a warning, because they don't have the financial resources to take it further.

So it appears that he may have got away with his illegal trading. Makes you wonder what the point of the legislation is.

 

[Dotty]

In case anyone is interested, GS made a report to the HSE. I haven't heard anything from the HSE. Hopefully they'll be taking action, but who knows. Trading Standards are doing nothing (per a telephone call I had with them), other than writing to him to give him a warning, because they don't have the financial resources to take it further.

So it appears that he may have got away with his illegal trading. Makes you wonder what the point of the legislation is.

Unfortunately (Or indeed fortunately!) no one died as a result so GS and HSE won't be that interested.

 

[AWheating]

Makes you wonder why any of us bother paying our fee's.

alot of these "illegal" engineers are less stupid than me. Stop paying gas safe, carry on fitting to your usual good standard, keep up to date with regulations via google, wont get anything other than a letter telling me to stop being a naughty boy.

 

[happyflyer]

Makes you wonder why any of us bother paying our fee's.

alot of these "illegal" engineers are less stupid than me. Stop paying gas safe, carry on fitting to your usual good standard, keep up to date with regulations via google, wont get anything other than a letter telling me to stop being a naughty boy.

AW you knew that anyway, I can read them like a bad book, things are not going to change, like you say not worth much more than a Blue Peter Badge, in fact a BPB might be worth more. You will just have to keep biting the bullet, and paying your money if you want GSR on yoh van! And there are more none GSR fitting boilers than you would care to imagine, they just pop up when something goes wrong early on. Like I said until they only sell boiler to someone with a ticket then it ain't going change, and that's not going to happen either. I have a pilots licence and I have not flown for 6 years, it would cost me about £4000 to become current, same kinda club as yours. At least with your club you can earn some money, good job they don't let just anyone go up in the aircraft hey!!!

 

[village idiot]

My quest was to find out why, when I need a gas certificate, gas fitters/companies can charge whatever they like, my gas safe certificate cost £88, for less than ten minutes work, the quotes I got were from over £200 down to the £88 I eventually paid.

So you are an ''intelligent'' chap, and was quoted btw £88 & £200 for a gas safe certificate. You are proudly telling us that you paid £88 for a service that took 10 mins?

Anyone carrying out a CP12 (gas safe certificate) for 10 mins is not after your safety but after your pocket. Surprised you did not work that one out. And £200, who quoted that? Even Pimlico Plumbers know where to draw the line. I think you are just making this up as you go along. Keep digging yourself in

 

[WHPES]

There's been a guy round here falsely claiming to be Gas Safe and Oftec registered. One of his customers took him to court only to find he was nearly bankrupt and the money obtained by the sale of his seized goods didn't even cover the court costs.

 

[PowerFlusher2]

Makes you wonder why any of us bother paying our fee's.

alot of these "illegal" engineers are less stupid than me. Stop paying gas safe, carry on fitting to your usual good standard, keep up to date with regulations via google, wont get anything other than a letter telling me to stop being a naughty boy.

I see the government have taken up your suggestion and decided that 'letters' are the way ahead - especially in the theft of copyrighted material from media sources online!

 

[happyflyer]

PowerFlusher2,

Can you elaborate, where's all this come from. I think AW was being a bit off the cuff and didn't really mean that's the way he would go, but I can see his frustration if GSR are just going to sit on their hands and just take you money every 3 or 5 years ??? I still think AW as a point, good plumber, reads books, does all the things that we did 40 years back, ???

 

[Ermintrude]

Yep tony, I'm wiping lead, applying asbestos lagging to patch up where I tore it off .

 

[happyflyer]

Yep tony, I'm wiping lead, applying asbestos lagging to patch up where I tore it off .

Cough cough cough is that what it was, you weren't in the trenches young lad.... you was hey????