British Gas Homecare - Free Boiler Replacement - Choices

[Leonardo]

Hi all,

My boiler (Ideal H30 - 6 years

old), has been ruled beyond economical repair.

They tried to sell me a new install, cost = £2900. I have their formal quote in writing. They recommended a Wocester Bosch (model 30si) for this house in quote.

After this - I did research.

We infact, do qualify for a free boiler replacement.

We meet all the conditions. Spoke to them - they confirmed, you are entitled to free boiler replacement.

My question:

For the free replacement, they want to use a different boiler than the one recommended in the quote. As my current boiler (ideal HE30) is no longer manufactured, they want to replace it with the closest model (Ideal Logic 30HE).

Ideals boilers , get very poor ratings when I've looked (e.g Which? Gas boilers owners' views score = 59%). It has a low reliability rating (below 60%).

I would like to get a different boiler fitted. I would like to know what my options are, and what my rights are.

1.How could I viably challenge their choice of the replacement ( now an Ideal H30 instead of the Worcester that they initially recommended). (Preferred).

2.If not, how can I get them to make xxxx funds avaliable, I chip in more - to get the one I want- i.e. their costs remain the same ,but, I make up the difference.(Acceptable).

3.If not what approach can I take take, to get them to send me cheque instead for the value of the boiler - I will chip in more and buy a new one myself.(Worst case).

I'm not bashing BG. Nothing like it. Just want to create a win win solution.

Thanks all.

 

[Mike Jackson]

I would have an Ideal Logic over a Worcester any day. Much nicer boiler. Ideal got themselves a very bad reputation with the Isar and icos and are fighting to get their good name back. The logic is a completely different beast.

 

[Rickster123]

I'd say any free boiler is a win to be honest. That said I've fitted many ideal logics no no problems. Infact I've had more problems with Worcesters than I have with ideal.

 

[Barry98]

Same fitted plenty of logics in last six month I'd have one

 

[Orry Clayton]

is it the Ideal Logic or the Logic Plus??

 

[Ray Stafford]

Have to agree that the Logic (and its derivatives) are way better than Ideal's recent past models.

As far as I can tell Ideal will be the only boiler manufacturer to have gained significant market share in 2012 - mostly down to the Logic platform, although helped by a few own goals from the opposition.

 

[Barry98]

Yeah expensive paper weights them neta-tecs

 

[Leonardo]

They sent me a text message with the model number:

"Ideal Logic 30HE"

That's all the detail BG provided in the text!

 

[TinTin]

My personal opinion after fitting many Worcester, Vaillant, alpha and ideal boilers would be that other than the price there really doesn't seem to be a lot of difference. Guess time will tell!

 

[julesverne]

i 'd go for a logic any day over a Worcester there all plastic tat and overpriced plastic at that

 

[Orry Clayton]

My personal opinion after fitting many Worcester, Vaillant, alpha and ideal boilers would be that other than the price there really doesn't seem to be a lot of difference. Guess time will tell!

Never is much to fitting them, it's when you come to repair them.

 

[Orry Clayton]

i 'd go for a logic any day over a Worcester there all plastic tat and overpriced plastic at that

That includes plastic heat exchanger.

 

[AWheating]

if its your personal preference to have a worcester then ask them to charge you the price difference. but check the difference before you agree.

 

[TinTin]

do you not find changing parts on a Worcester is a right head ache? its not like they are the smallest boiler but theres just no room in them.

 

[anz]

do you not find changing parts on a Worcester is a right head ache? its not like they are the smallest boiler but theres just no room in them.

That's due to the poor design.

 

[TinTin]

i find it funny though. a lot of installers recommend Worcester all the time as i used to but to be honest compared to other companies they dont seem to feel the need to look after the installer.
We are their biggest sales reps and sometimes a little recognition wouldn't go a miss.
Alpha for examplehave contacted me asking if i would like training free of charge along with other useful bits and pieces. it all helps in a tough market!

 

[JJ The Plumber]

I've fitted quite a few Logic Plus over the last couple of years and they have been good.
Logic that you are looking at having fitted I think has a 2 year warranty whereas the Logic Plus has 5 year but other than that they are essentially the same boiler.
Go for it over a Worcester everytime.

 

[mcniven]

Logic is the way to go!

Why get it for free? Well do it for only £1999

www.McNivens.com

 

[dancinplumba]

plus has 7 yr til end of this yr

 

[TBServices]

I think the general feeling on the forum, is go for the logic! I have to say, I agree.

 

[Roger Welton]

Agree with every one else very kind of bg to upgrade you from a worcester to a ideal logic!

 

[gasmanrob]

fitted somewhere close to 60 worcesters over the last 3 years but in the last 5 months i have converted to the logic plus. i got fed up with with paying top money for supposedly the best boiler out there and having to build the poxy thing out of the box. and to be honest i think the logic is a brilliant bit of kit from an installers and customer prospective. bg wont fit you the logic plus as it comes with a 7 year warrenty instead of the 2 year on the logic as they would rather you carried on with your homecare aggreement. but that said if you do carry on with your aggreement and the boiler packs up within the next ten years youll get a nice new boiler for free again. on that basis i wouldnt worry to much as to which model they fit. the only issue is if it goes wrong youd have to take time off from work but now im straying from the point.
in all i wouldnt be put off by bad ideal reviews as they are largely linked to the icos/isar/minimizer range. they have really gone to town on this boiler and spent alot of money developing it and to my knowledge they are the only maker to be offering a 7 year warrenty without being on there approved installer list. and you wouldnt do that if you werent 100% confident in your product as they have sold these in thier thousands!

 

[geminigas]

Have to agree with the other posts. Ideal has a bad reputation (which was deserved), due to their icos/isar boilers. Ideal got their act together and the logic cannot be compared to their previous models. IME anyone who is knocking ideal is due to there previous boilers, and anyone who has fitted one of the logics does not share their opinion.

I am replacing my own boiler with a logic. You would need to worry if they were trying to offer you a ferolli!!

 

[Leonardo]

You've all convinced me to accept the Logic. I'm in. Thanks!

But I'm not passed the finish line just yet.

Please help me prepare. There're fitting it on Friday, what do I need to get checked, what should I do to ensure, to get the best for my family.

A.Which filtration system would you recommend? (magnaclean, magnaclean twintech, fernox etc.)
B. Who should be providing it
C. The inhibitor? should this be part of the install process, who should provide it ?

I don't know what I will do without these forums.

Guys keep the advice coming please.

many many thanks,

SirLancealot

 

[petercj]

Last I heard BG were fitting Spirotech Magnabooster filters, which are good, but suspect they will sting you on the fitting.

Check out the warranty on boiler, suspect BG will only give 12 months, but if you are going to carry on with Home Care it shouldn't be a problem. Inhibitor is down to to them.

Good for you for making sure BG stick to the contract.

 

[A1P]

Think very seriously about getting them to upgrade to the Ideal Logic Plus.There will be a few pounds difference to pay.Make clear that you are aware of the 7 year warranty subject to annual servicing by any Gas Safe heating engineer and that you want that model.After installation I would seriously consider ending your Home Care at renewal.Put the money away and it would probably buy a new boiler in 10 years if required.

 

[anz]

Think very seriously about getting them to upgrade to the Ideal Logic Plus.There will be a few pounds difference to pay.Make clear that you are aware of the 7 year warranty subject to annual servicing by any Gas Safe heating engineer and that you want that model.After installation I would seriously consider ending your Home Care at renewal.Put the money away and it would probably buy a new boiler in 10 years if required.

I don't think you get a five or seven year warranty when installed by British Gas, just a standard 12 months. After which you have to pay £20/month for cover if you want it.

 

[A1P]

You may well be right .I thought that if a customer gets this warranty when I fit it,there should be no reason why they should not get it from any qualified engineer/company.If BG give less of a warranty for their own benefit this is a real rip off.Watchdog time to bark!!!! Perhaps our dynamic Business Secretary might be interested if he could break off from sucking that lemon!!!

 

[petercj]

Sounds to me as if this boiler replacement is a BG blunder that has worked to the OP's advantage, i.e. they have written it off thinking it was no longer covered for replacement under the Home Care agreement, i.e. over 7 years old, or for some other reason found in the HC small print.

A WB with 12 months warranty is their standard package, presumably they've switch to a like-for-like replacement in accordance with HC T&C's.

BG will be buying WB's in bulk, and dropping the usual warranty will no doubt mean that they get them even cheaper, but there's nothing unusual about that, it's common business practice, and it would be questionable good sense to fit a boiler with a long warranty that negated the point of the contract you have fitted it under.

On this occasion it sounds as if BG are doing the right thing by the customer (makes a change to read that on this forum).

The OP might be able to save some money by getting the filter fitted by an independent - the last I heard BG were charging just under £300 to fit a Magna-booster - it's worth asking if it will come any cheaper if done when the system is dry and they are working on it anyway.

If not, the OP can probably save a £100 or so by getting someone on the 'find a plumber' board to pop in and fit a Tf1 or maybe a Centramag ...

[DLMURL="http://www.gassafetyshop.co.uk/products/NEW-%252d-Trappex-Centramag-Filters-.html"]NEW - Trappex Centramag Filters - Gas Safety Shop[/DLMURL]

[DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/im-looking-plumber-gas-engineer/"]I'm looking for a Plumber or Gas Engineer[/DLMURL]

Fernox Total Filter TF1 - YouTube

trappex | advanced magnetic and non-magnetic particle filter

 

[Leonardo]

So this is where we are peoples!

BG are pushing one for £800, if I am to keep warranty for the new boiler. We all know this price is a joke. Is there any way to get a PF done for cheaper, but that has to be accepted by BG (for warranty continuation).

1.The central heating system is old, and the water is rather black. Should I risk a power flush? Are there ways to do a power flush, but with reduced risks for an old system? (copper pipe)

2.Thanks petercj. I would like a few opinions on Which filter would members recommend. I've heard about so many. BG are saying they won't cover the boiler in the future unless we get their (£800) powerflush. They claim it's not just the magnetic particles that are the issue, but scale that can build up in a HE over time. Is there a filter that can also take care of scale+non magnetic debris in addition to the magnetic debris.

I really appreciate many of you must be busy during the winter period, with Christmas round the corner to boot.

Your advice is really helping me get through this difficult period.

Warmest and Sincere thanks,

Leonardo

 

[TBServices]

It's a load of old crap to get you to part with £800. Simple.

 

[petercj]

You can hire a PF machine for around £60 - google for HSS Hire - easy enough to do yourself.

Or take the radiators off and flush with a hose.

Or get a reasonable price for PF from someone on this board.

The Fernox Tf1, Spirotech Magna Booster, and Trappex Centramag, all filter magnetic and non-magnetic debris.

 

[chads]

in all i wouldnt be put off by bad ideal reviews as they are largely linked to the icos/isar/minimizer range. they have really gone to town on this boiler and spent alot of money developing it and to my knowledge they are the only maker to be offering a 7 year warrenty without being on there approved installer list. and you wouldnt do that if you werent 100% confident in your product as they have sold these in thier thousands!

The 7yr warranty ends on the logic at the end of this year, as Ideal are bringing out a the new vogue model, which has a ss heat exchanger. If it is a good as the logic, it will be one to watch.

 

[Leonardo]

Basically, they'll replace the boiler as they are contractually obliged to. However, after that, in order to continue covering the new boiler, they have said I HAVE TO do a powerflush - cost £800.

No problem, I'll get it done, but from a third party that I choose.

They say, "sorry, we will only accept a BG powerflush as sufficent".

I'm wondering if they can do this. Surely there must be a precedence in U.K law, that prevents them from forcing consumers to use only them. Surely there are Uk PF standards, that would certify the work of third party contractors.

I have a feeling, that 'only accepting, a BG powerflush' may infact be illegal, and/or can be bypassed somehow.

I've paid for an insurance policy, and now the boilers being replaced (as per. contract). I accept that a powerflush might need to be done, but I don't want to risk loosing the warranty cover or homecare cover on the new boiler.

I think there must be a strategy/approach/technique to get the PF done independently and sufficently, so that BG are forced to carry on the cover.

Any ideas, approaches, leads on this please?

 

[lame plumber]

theres no such thing as a free boiler after all and you have already agreed to their terms by paying them monthly for cover and signing the start up paperwork. Are you expecting them to pay for your gas for the next year as well, you seem to want cake, cream and a free ride home!!!!!!!!!

 

[Leonardo]

theres no such thing as a free boiler after all and you have already agreed to their terms by paying them monthly for cover and signing the start up paperwork. Are you expecting them to pay for your gas for the next year as well, you seem to want cake, cream and a free ride home!!!!!!!!!

You've misunderstood.

I've paid my premiums for the cover for years. Boiler broke, they cam and wrote it off. The contract says like for like replacement in this circumstance. Ok - thats fine, after all, I have been paying premiums for 6-7 years.

Now, I want to continue my policy, after the new boiler is fitted. However, they won't do this, unless I get power flush done from them only. Quoted Cost = £800 for a BG powerflush.

Fellow forum members have been clear, this is way way to high (there are no 'special/unique circumstances to the CH system in my house).

So I'm asking, is the BG engineer correct/being-honest - can they corner me like this, or can I find a way to get a third party powerflush done, that cannot then be disregarded by BG. This way, I will continue to pay the premium, the new boiler/boiler-install (and related work) will continue to be covered, ut the powerflush will have been more affordable.

Hope this is clearer. Thanks for contributing.

I'm trying to find a way, to get a third party powerflush accepted, so as to continue coverage, of the new boiler (and related work). There must be a way - I'm asking for suggestions, approaches, information and leads that will create a way forward on this.

 

[TBServices]

Thing is, an £800 powerflush is more to BG than the cost of new boiler and fitting tbh. So they will still be in profit. Plus your extended homecare plan!

I'd take the boiler and cancel the plan. You'll get no warranty but tbh, a new logic is unlikely to break within the next 5 years anyway, so take a chance on it. When it breaks, get another put in its place with the full warranty and you'll get an extra 7 years peace of mind for not much more than the cost of BG's ripoff powerflush.

 

[petercj]

Basically, they'll replace the boiler as they are contractually obliged to. However, after that, in order to continue covering the new boiler, they have said I HAVE TO do a powerflush - cost £800.

No problem, I'll get it done, but from a third party that I choose.

They say, "sorry, we will only accept a BG powerflush as sufficent".

I'm wondering if they can do this. Surely there must be a precedence in U.K law, that prevents them from forcing consumers to use only them. Surely there are Uk PF standards, that would certify the work of third party contractors.

I have a feeling, that 'only accepting, a BG powerflush' may infact be illegal, and/or can be bypassed somehow.

I've paid for an insurance policy, and now the boilers being replaced (as per. contract). I accept that a powerflush might need to be done, but I don't want to risk loosing the warranty cover or homecare cover on the new boiler.

I think there must be a strategy/approach/technique to get the PF done independently and sufficently, so that BG are forced to carry on the cover.

Any ideas, approaches, leads on this please?

BG may have you over a barrel here because they are buying the boiler, and so they are the ones who have the rights to any warranty given. Warranties are given as an addition to statutory consumer rights, and the company providing the warranty can stipulate a wide range of conditions.

BG can't make you have the powerflush done by them, but I think you will find that they can decide whether to pass on the warranty to you, or not.

Do you have any legal cover on your house insurance, if you do, you should be able to get some specific legal advice on this.

Even without the warranty you will have some statutory rights under the Supply of Goods and Services Act, more info on that here...

Citizens Advice - Introduction to letter on Supply of Goods and Services Act - Goods

Something else to be aware of is that if you change the date set for installation and get your own powerflush done, you may find that BG put you back down their list and say they will be unable to do the installation this side of Christmas. They might not pull that one on you, but if you are going to change the date, make sure you have a satisfactory new date for fitting before cancelling.

If BG do say they can't fit the boiler before Christmas if you cancel, you could let them go ahead and get the powerflush done asap after the installation - it's not a good way to do things, but if they intend to drop you in it, it might be a way of getting your heating up and running asap. If they cancel your HomeCare after the installation, then as soon as the powerflush has been done take out cover with another company - Helplink are cheaper than BG for the same kind of cover...

Central Heating & Boiler Breakdown Cover | Help-Link

£800 for a powerflush is an absolute rip-off imo.

I hope you can find a way through this.

 

[TBServices]

Peter, you ever seen a helplink install? AVOID!!!

 

[petercj]

Peter, you ever seen a helplink install? AVOID!!!

The cover would just be for breakdowns on the system - as you have said, a new Logic shouldn't throw up problems for a while.

But if not Helplink, then some other company that does system cover.

If BG say they won't continue cover unless a powerflush is done, and there isn't time to get a third party to do it before the date set for the installation, then I can't see why the OP wouldn't be able to start a new HC contract with BG once he has had the system cleaned. They will have some responsibility under the SoGaS Act during the interim period anyway.

 

[Roger Welton]

If it were me, Id

1. Get boiler from BG, tell them to stick the power flush £800 is taking the proverbial.
2. If the system is really that bad, then I'd get a local chap (must have friends or colleagues that know someone trustworthy) to power-flush and add magnetic filter.
3. Then use them in the future for servicing and any issues you may (but are VERY unlikely) to have, and bin the home care from BG
4. Enjoy not paying out monthly for something not necessary.

 

[lame plumber]

my comment nothings for free is based on the fact that bg have written the rules, which you have agreed to bide by to get the boiler "free" and if thats what you want then you have to pay for a power flush to continue getting their superior service cover.
My own opinion is, people are better off putting their cash into an account monthly, saving it up and paying a gsr to do an annual service. New boilers come with upto seven years warranty cover, so why on earth pay bg for the same thing? Its no brainer.

 

[petercj]

my comment nothings for free is based on the fact that bg have written the rules, which you have agreed to bide by to get the boiler "free" and if thats what you want then you have to pay for a power flush to continue getting their superior service cover.
My own opinion is, people are better off putting their cash into an account monthly, saving it up and paying a gsr to do an annual service. New boilers come with upto seven years warranty cover, so why on earth pay bg for the same thing? Its no brainer.

As the OP has been paying BG for the HC cover, no doubt he is well aware that the boiler is not 'free' - people often talk of free treatment on the NHS, knowing very well that the treatment is far from free, other than at the point of delivery. It's just an expression.

From what I know of the matter, the OP is not averse to paying to have the system cleaned, it's the cost of £800 he's baulking at - understandably.

A lot of people take out central heating cover so that they have the peace of mind of knowing that if their boiler breaks down during a cold spell they can be sure someone will turn up to fix it without taking advantage of their predicament by charging three or four times the usual rate: "pay up, or freeze, it's your choice!" Not an unusual scenario by any means during winter months.

The OP has paid his installments in good faith and someone has turned up right enough, but only to take advantage of his situation by trying to charge him a totally unrealistic figure for powerflushing. Which may not be an illegal act, but I doubt that anyone with a conscience would see it as a moral one.

So where are the BG fitters now who shout about the "second to none service" provided by BG?

Seems to have gone very quiet all of a sudden.