Central heating pump sizing

[Reddwarf4ever]

Think you are correct re the reading, the silent red 0 at the end confused me.

I also think there is a little rotating mechanical device (outlined with red oval) that you can get a very accurate boiler consumption number from, time it exactly for say 5 revolutions, if it takes say 70secs then the boiler consumption is 5.5 kw.
Or maybe time the red counter for exactly one revolution (1 FT3?)

Think you are correct re the reading, the silent red 0 at the end confused me.

I also think there is a little rotating mechanical device (outlined with red oval) that you can get a very accurate boiler consumption number from, time it exactly for say 5 revolutions, if it takes say 70secs then the boiler consumption is 5.5 kw.
Or maybe time the red counter for exactly one revolution (1 FT3?)

Thanks, at least that dispels what I was told about the plume being a sign that the boiler is in condensing mode.....would measure the condensate, but it’s all piped in quite secure and insulated, so won’t disturb that.

Re the gas meter, I think the dial marked in orange, is 1/10th of a unit, so each full rotation of the dial circled in green would increase the digit ‘ circled in orange’ by One, IMO

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep

 

[John.g]

Thanks, at least that dispels what I was told about the plume being a sign that the boiler is in condensing mode.***.would measure the condensate, but it’s all piped in quite secure and insulated, so won’t disturb that.

Re the gas meter, I think the dial marked in orange, is 1/10th of a unit, so each full rotation of the dial circled in green would increase the digit ‘ circled in orange’ by One, IMO

View attachment 47612

That's fantastic, you can now use this to either get a new DAB pump or a new boiler or something in between!.
When you think your boiler is at minimum output get a stop watch and time in secs one complete revolution of the dial which is 0.1FT3?, calc then is
0.1x0.3X0.85X3600/(time in secs), KW. will be very interesting to see your findings.

Those 3 units you got for 24 hour period don't make sense as it means a consumption of less than 1 kwh.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

what did you mean about getting a new DAB pump or boiler ? Was that a joke 😂

I actually removed the radiator from the kitchen in 2008, the year before I got the valiant, so considering reinstating that, but with a 100x50cm double fin, together with replacing the two lounge rads with double fins should hopefully give the boiler more to work on & help the return temperature ......so frustrating this morning, trying to heat the house, but at 64oC target, inlet 54oC, it was only consuming 5KW...with the pump on CP3....just not enough heat being dissipated.....increased outlet to 68oC but now the inlet 58oC and not condensing.....looks like won’t win as things stand.

just put back to outlet 64oC ( inlet 54oC ) & see if it eventually warms the house up, fan 1600rpm 🤯

Gas Units ( ft3 ) conversion to KWh
units × 2.83 × 1.02264 × 38.9 ÷ 3.6 = kWh

therefore 3 units ( 24 Hrs ) = 94KWh

will do the consumption reading shortly

P.S. used 2845 KWh in January 2021 which is 92KWh / Day which ties up.

 

[John.g]

I can certainly assure you that 3 FT3 of natural gas does not contain 94 kwh but 300 FT3 does.
Just carry out that test I suggested and that will do a rough meter check as well.
Have you got before/after meter readings for any billing period or before/after for that 24 hour period?.

I wouldn't get too carried away with this condensing, the extra saving in running at a return temp of 58C as against 54C is the sq. root of nothing as IMO you have to get down to a water temperature of ~ 50C to even begin to condense.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Guess having paid for a condensing boiler, gives an incentive to actually get it to work as it should ( & save money )
but back to Gas use, I now notice a Gas ‘Unit’ is actually a 100 F3 of gas....learn something new every day 🥳 so the meter window with the orange circle is actually x 10, which is what the little red zero is for ( advised by my Wife that she told me this but I didn’t listen, as if 😂😂😂 ) so this afternoon will get the readings

included some gas bills.......

 

[John.g]

Might be easier so to time 5 revolutions of that rotating gazebo (post 244) that I initially suggested and/or time just 1 division of the counter which is 1 FT3 as it would take ~ 35 minutes to time one complete revolution in which time the boiler output may have changed.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

set the boiler at 5KW, (1500rpm fan) took 2min 47 secs for 1.0 ft3 of gas

from your calculation 0.1x0.3X0.85X3600/secs

= 0.5497 ?

 

[John.g]

No, its 5.497kw because the "0.1"Ft3 is now 1Ft3. Looking good as from the fan speed calc the boiler output is 1500/5200*18, 5.2kw.

So not joking about the DAB pump, I assume it was/is reading 1.0 M3/hr and the deltaT was 9C?, so IF the deltaT is correct then the flow must be ~ 0.5M3/hr so a error of 100% or else there is a problem with the flow or return thermistors as the deltaT should be 4.7C if the flow is correct.
I would be slightly concerned that magnetite/sludge build up is affecting the pump, in which case it won't be covered by warranty, I would suggest inspecting the Wilo by removing the top and (take a photo) cleaning it up with special attention to the impeller vanes and re installing it. You can then inspect the DAB before making any decisions.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Was so happy about the early performance of the DAB pump & the silent operation compared to the Wilo, I am afraid I disposed of it. Couldn’t see any point in keeping it. So will have to work with what I have......today has been a good day, using CC3, 64oC outlet and 54oC inlet......kept going all day.....house warming up nicely......will leave as is for a few days and try very hard not to adjust anything.......

thanks

 

[John.g]

Re "condensing", it would be interesting if you could break the condensate line and measure it (if any), from my basic calc you should get around 0.16 Ltr/kw of gas burned if fully condensing, so at minimum output of 5.2Kw ~ 0.8 litres of water/hour. If you can run on return target temp control then you will be able to see the exact effect the return temp has on the condensate rate, or adjust the target flow temp when boiler firing harder to reduce the return temp but not below the minimum boiler output.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Not easy to break the condensate line, as fully insulated and glued fittings.
during the recent cold snap, the boiler worked ok all day, pretty much at its minimum of 5KW, when the weather became milder, it actually satisfied the room stat several times in the day, flow temperature still set at 64oC and return around 55oC. Going to increase two rads this summer to double fin & as high an output as I can find. Hot water working well, set room stat to 23oC a couple of times a day for an hour, so hopefully the hot water will heat efficiently 🤞 The boiler still cuts out at +3oC above target and it does fire up a bit too vigorously, often overshooting......but learning to live with these limitations. Wish the radiators had been designed around a D 40oC wouldn’t have so many problems achieving a boiler DT of 20oC & a lower return temperature.

just phoned a ‘recommended‘ Gas safe engineer. Had no idea if the 3oC trip or firing rate from startup could be changed, thought my idea about increasing radiator sizes is wrong 🤔 suggested I get valiant out as they should be able to fix my problems. But I am not convinced that I wouldn’t just be wasting my money, if I get told either “it can’t be fixed “ or “ that’s going to be expensive “, a quick look at the valiant website gives a ‘one off service‘ as £285, apparently as my boiler is 11 years old it can no longer have a contract cover ( Max 8 years old ) even if for the £285 my problems were fixed, it was would takes years to payback this with any ‘possible’ fuel savings. Keep emailing Vailant with the questions can the 3oC cut out be adjusted or fixed to 5oC and can the fire up rate on start up be adjusted, ‘ reduced’, maybe it is the P.I.D. Controller.....maybe should just wait till it packs up & replace with a non valiant boiler.....one that does more what I need......wish I knew a friendly gas safe engineer with a good knowledge of valiant boilers to give me some answers

 

[John.g]

Welcome back.

You still have a lot of control over your return temperatures but the boiler may not be happy.
Taking the above.....flow/return/deltaT, 23C room temp and a TRV...
64/55/9 if you increased the flow temp to 70C then the exact same rad output will be achieved.....70/48/22 so you are now condensing nicely with a deltaT of 22C .
If you increased the flow temp to 75C then the exact same output will again be achieved ....75/44/31, better condensing but at the boiler deltaT limit of 30C. (I run my boiler all the time at ~ 70/75 and see these return temps of 43/46C regularly). I'm sure I mentioned these numbers previously??.

Now, if you doubled the size of the rads to give the same output as above then, for the same flow temp of 64C......flow/return/deltaT 64/24/40, deltaT 10C greater than boiler limit of 30C.
60/28/32 excellent condensing but marginal deltat for boiler
55/33/22 again outstanding condensing and only 22 deltaT.

SO, to sum up, with existing rads (output) then with a flow temp of 70C you will have a return of 48C and a deltaT of 22C
If you double the rad size, you can have a flow temp of 55C with a return of 33C and a deltaT of 22C.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Welcome back.

You still have a lot of control over your return temperatures but the boiler may not be happy.
Taking the above.***.flow/return/deltaT, 23C room temp and a TRV...
64/55/9 if you increased the flow temp to 70C then the exact same rad output will be achieved.***.70/48/22 so you are now condensing nicely with a deltaT of 22C .
If you increased the flow temp to 75C then the exact same output will again be achieved ***.75/44/31, better condensing but at the boiler deltaT limit of 30C. (I run my boiler all the time at ~ 70/75 and see these return temps of 43/46C regularly). I'm sure I mentioned these numbers previously??.

Now, if you doubled the size of the rads to give the same output as above then, for the same flow temp of 64C.***..flow/return/deltaT 64/24/40, deltaT 10C greater than boiler limit of 30C.
60/28/32 excellent condensing but marginal deltat for boiler
55/33/22 again outstanding condensing and only 22 deltaT.

SO, to sum up, with existing rads (output) then with a flow temp of 70C you will have a return of 48C and a deltaT of 22C
If you double the rad size, you can have a flow temp of 55C with a return of 33C and a deltaT of 22C.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

So basically what you are saying is there is no need for me to keep driving the flow temperature down 🤔 I realised that radiator BTU released would suffer, but assumed ‘wrongly it seems’ that that was the way to go. I have read elsewhere ‘ but shouldn’t believe everything on the internet’ that keeping the flow temperature as low as possible was the best solution to ensuring a condenser boiler is in condensing mode.

reading your post, I conclude that raising the flow temperature would increase the DT across the radiators, and not adversely affect the return temperature.

will certainly give this a try, ( SO, to sum up, with existing rads (output) then with a flow temp of 70C you will have a return of 48C and a deltaT of 22C ) if successful, will result in a faster house warm up, a more efficient boiler & allowing the boiler to cycle frequently as it’s meant to, plus no need to replace the lounge radiators.

will update soon.....🙏 set flow temperature to 72oC.....🤞

 

[John.g]

Yes, as long as the rads are controlled by TRVs, if not controlled by TRVs then reducing the flow temp is the only way to reduce the return temp.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Yes, as long as the rads are controlled by TRVs, if not controlled by TRVs then reducing the flow temp is the only way to reduce the return temp.

if a TRV shut back, wouldn’t the heat released from the associated radiator fall ?, or would the flow increase through the remaining radiators, if not wouldn‘t this result in an increased return temperature To the boiler ? If the TRV was fully open, then this would be the same as not having a TRV ???

8/12 have TRVs

 

[John.g]

Yes, the rad output decreases with TRV throttling, that is the whole point of a TRV, it maintains a room temperature by controlliing the flow through the rad and changing its mean temperature which changes its output.
Yes, the flow through the remaining rads will increase leading to increased output and room temp tends to rise so the TRVs on these rads will throttle in more to return the room temperature to normal.
Yes, having a TRV fully open is exactly the same as having no TRV.
Remember my comments above are based on the assumption that TRVs are used throughout and its pointless increasing the flow temp to 70C as the higher return from the non TRVd rads will mix with the lower returns from the TRV rads leading to a increased boiler return temp.

If you are controlling the return temps on the non TRV rads by reducing the flow temp then this is fine and if you want to maintain the same output but with a reduced return temp then you will have to throttle the lockshield valves to give a return of 48C with a flow temp of 70C or a return of 44C with a flow temp of 75C, as you are aware, in all cases including your own of 64C/55C that the rad(s) output is reduced to 65% of its rated output.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Set the boiler flow temperature to 72oC and the return is 62oC, so clearly not suitable for my system.....I don’t have TRVs on the lounge radiators, because that’s what I have been told, you never fit TRVs to all rads, unless that philosophy has changed.

so back to 64oC for now...

 

[John.g]

Throttle the lock shield valves until you get 46/48C , remember its recommended anyway to throttle to get a 20C deltaT with a condensing boiler.

 

[John.g]

Forgot that you have a "smart" circ pump so a much easier method of achieving your output of 5.3kw with reduced return temp.
Your present settings are flow/return/deltaT/Kw, 64C/59C/9C.
If you increase the flow temp to 67C, change from CC3 to CP3, observe the return temp, then change to CP2 and finally CP1, if the pump curves are as I think they are then you should/might get 67C/50C/17C. Downside is you would probably have to return to CC3 to enable the boiler to refire after shutdown. Maybe worth a try?.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Forgot that you have a "smart" circ pump so a much easier method of achieving your output of 5.3kw with reduced return temp.
Your present settings are flow/return/deltaT/Kw, 64C/59C/9C.
If you increase the flow temp to 67C, change from CC3 to CP3, observe the return temp, then change to CP2 and finally CP1, if the pump curves are as I think they are then you should/might get 67C/50C/17C. Downside is you would probably have to return to CC3 to enable the boiler to refire after shutdown. Maybe worth a try?.

Will certainly give that a try, Friday 🤞....running 62C/52-55C/7-10C/5-6KW working well, heating cycles 2-3 times a day when the room stat is satisfied, Hot water heated at same time as heating is on, so not a problem so far. With the two lounge radiators increased from 2784 to 5439 BTUs ( based on 50oC DT, [although I realise mine are 40oC DT]) Each, hopefully will be enough to improve things next winter.

just wish Vailant would actually give me an answer about the +3oC cut out Vs +5oC, which it’s meant to be.

 

[king of pipes]

These maybe of interest to you gives a bit more info on the pump settings. Kop

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Haven’t had a chance to try your ideas out yet, on my list.
But........

I Compared February 2020 average temperature, 7.44oC with February 2021, 7.75oC
Gas use in Feb 2020 was 71.16 units and Feb 2021 71.0 Units

On the face of it, doesn’t seem a lot of point running my boiler at 62-64oC instead of 75oC. Was considering upgrading two lounge radiators to double fin to increase heat output on each by 30%, but with almost zero efficiency gain, seems it may not be a viable idea. Will try Johns suggestions. Wish these condensing boilers had built in efficiency calculators, would just need a condensate flow meter to achieve this I think🤔. Or even a light to say in condensing mode.....be a selling point maybe 🤔 assuming of course customers understand what it means.

will also look at the pump you tube video(s) but the post only contained an image not links, but will look for them thanks.

looking at this chart, my boiler is around 87% efficient if I increases the size of my two lounge rads to double fin, I am not sure if I will achieve even a 45oC return temperatur, even then the efficiency will be 90% which is only 3% more than I have now. To get the best from a condensing boiler IMO, it needs to be installed the same time as the rads etc. To size everything to get the most out of the condensing boiler. Not so easy, as things stand now.

the graph shows 3 flow rates, so if I read it correctly, using the lower flow rate ( in Red ) would achieve a better efficiency 🤔

graph obtained from here

Monitoring energy efficiency of condensing boilers via hybrid first-principle modelling and estimation

The operating principle of condensing boilers is based on exploiting heat from flue gases to pre-heat cold water at the inlet of the boiler: by conden…

www.sciencedirect.com

most in depth explanation / discussion on condensing boilers I have ever seen

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Need to keep it condensing else it will break the boiler in a year or two as the heat exchanger will get blocked as there’s nothing to move the waste

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Hello, until this February it has not been in condensing mode since new 2009, only just realised how it should operate. Can’t see how the heat exchanger will get blocked ? It’s just a case of efficiency 🤔

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Last week, I had a phone conversation with a Vailant engineer. I asked why my boiler cuts out at a DT of only 3oC between flow and target temperature & not 5oC as I have been told it should be, he replied it varies, depends on how hard the boiler is firing, I replied that doesn’t make sense, the cut out temperature is a specific value or % of range, either way a definite value, he just repeated it again, then said it controls on DT of inlet and outlet temperatures D41-D40, I said that doesn’t make sense either, it can only have one control parameter, which is D5.....he kept on about things not being specific and depends on this or that.......I completely gave up in the end, none the wiser......send one FINAL long email to Vailant re that phone call and asking for clarification......don’t suppose I will get any....🤯🤬😡

 

[John.g]

Overall, I think you are doing pretty well, you can get the return temp down to ~48C by increasing the flow temp to ~ 75C and reducing the flow rate but then the boiler will exceed the 30c max deltaT on fire up due to the reduced flow, and trip, if you keep reducing the flow temp then the rad outputs will fall below the minimum that you require and below the minimum output of the boiler.
Also, in non condensing mode, 10C difference in flue gas temperature (~ same difference in return temp) will only result in ~ 0.45% difference in boiler efficiency.

 

[John.g]

Just had another look at those numbers and I can see now why you can't get into condensing mode at a demand of 5.2kw.

If all your rads were in service and assuming a rated output of 18kw then with flow/return of 75/58 & 0.75m3/hr flow the actual output will be
15kw. IF the heat demand now fell to 5.2kw and you reduced the flow temp to 45C then you will get a return of 39C and 5.2 kw output.

Now you only need to heat 4 or 5 rooms so these rads which I reckon have a rated output of 7.2 kw are required to output 5.2kw so for the same flow rate of 0.75m3/hr then flow/return of 65/59 will give you the required 5.2kw but the return is way above condensing and there isn't much you can do about that IMO.
If you reduce the flowrate to the minimum required of 0.33m3/hr to maintain a boiler deltaT of 25C for the required 9.6kw boiler output for 1 minute on fire up then to give the required min output of 5/5.2kw requires a flow temp of 68C which results in a return of 54C, still no condensing.
You would have to oversize the rads by a factor of 1.25 (9kw) to even begin condensing at 50c (flow of 66C) and by a factor of 1.8 (13kw) to get meaningful condensing at 42C (flow of 55C)

It seems very apparent that no matter what the combination of flow temp and flow rate is that it is thermodynamically impossible to have a boiler in condensing mode with the rads outputting their rated output and have to be outputting only ~ 56% of their rated output to get a return of ~ 42C and real condensing effect.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

I agree John, tried all your ideas and no matter what I do, either the boiler continually cuts out due to over firing / over temperature, or the inlet temperatures continues to be around 55-58oC. Think condensing boilers work best when the heating system is designed from new for a condensing boiler.

looking at the condensing efficiency chart, I am at 86-87% with the boiler in Non condensing mode, if I change 2 lounge radiators to increase heat output to 30% for Each, not sure how much difference this would make to the return temperature, even if I could achieve 45oC the efficiency would only be 4-5% higher, so wonder if it justifies the expense......

thanks

 

[John.g]

I don't think it's worth the hassle/expense, I have always been skeptical of the actual condensing benefit achieved.
On oil fired boilers, the flue gas temp on a SE boiler is around 230/250C and 80/100c on a HE so a real gain of ~ 6 to8%, I would like to see typical flue gas temperatures for SE/HE gas boilers, I wouldn't expect a SE gas boiler temperature to be as high as that of a oil fired boiler.

But there are lots of ways of skinning a cat, I ran and maintained relatively large 50MW, 45 bar superheated steam boilers and because of the high water temps involved (259C) regenerative rotary air heaters were used to heat the incoming combustion air with the outgoing flue gas and the boilers had ~ 85% efficiency....your next project.

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

I don't think it's worth the hassle/expense, I have always been skeptical of the actual condensing benefit achieved.
On oil fired boilers, the flue gas temp on a SE boiler is around 230/250C and 80/100c on a HE so a real gain of ~ 6 to8%, I would like to see typical flue gas temperatures for SE/HE gas boilers, I wouldn't expect a SE gas boiler temperature to be as high as that of a oil fired boiler.

But there are lots of ways of skinning a cat, I ran and maintained relatively large 50MW, 45 bar superheated steam boilers and because of the high water temps involved (259C) regenerative rotary air heaters were used to heat the incoming combustion air with the outgoing flue gas and the boilers had ~ 85% efficiency....your next project.

I worked most of my life on refineries, where heat recovery was paramount, especially producing 600# steam from furnaces to drive turbines. I love thinking of ways to be more efffcient, but sometimes the odds are weighed against me. I envisaged a system, where a separate cold water tank ( feeding the DHW cylinder, could be preheated, using an other boiler heat exchanger, just before it vents outside, to extract the remaining latent heat, would only need a very small pump, only running when the boiler is on......the ‘heated’ DHW storage tank would be the size needed for a days use of DHW, if it fell low, it would be made up from the main DHW storage tank, would need to be foam insulated also......just a dream......

the way Energy is going, won’t be long before burning gas is a thing of the past, we will all be on electric heating, so much simpler. There is so much more better ways to use the gas, or at least the oil it was produced from, than just burning it. Burning fossil fuel for energy should be the very last thing we do, when it can’t be re used or recycled anymore IMO

take care

 

[king of pipes]

Products do exist but they are costly. Kop

 

[Reddwarf4ever]

Shaun corbs said “Need to keep it condensing else it will break the boiler in a year or two as the heat exchanger will get blocked as there’s nothing to move the waste”

but dont see why this should be or how 🤔

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You will get particles that will build up in the burner chamber that won’t get flushed through with the condense and will build up to a point where it just blocks the hex and could cause it to split