Central Heating Zones - New & Replacement Systems

[diamondgas]

Does that go for TRV's not required too rodders and/or timer/thermostat? That also adds a lot of time and money to a job if not required? Just curious but now that you're pals with these folk maybe they'd clarify that one too 🙂

 

[rodders]

Does that go for TRV's not required too rodders and/or timer/thermostat? That also adds a lot of time and money to a job if not required? Just curious but now that you're pals with these folk maybe they'd clarify that one too 🙂

I'd say you would need timer/thermostat to provide boiler interlock and to make the boiler (the component being replaced) comply with the regs. As with TRVs i'd fit them as part of the job, but from the response I got I'd say you have a good case if you say the customer didn't want TRVs due to the extra cost.

 

[diamondgas]

I'd say you would need timer/thermostat to provide boiler interlock and to make the boiler (the component being replaced) comply with the regs. As with TRVs i'd fit them as part of the job, but from the response I got I'd say you have a good case if you say the customer didn't want TRVs due to the extra cost.

I'd agree with you. Its more of a "best practice" approach. Make the customer aware of the changes in requirements and allowing them the choices that they may not have otherwise been aware of 🙂 End of the day it makes for more profit installing the additional controls so I'd say in the installers interest to promote them! IMO 🙂

 

[peteheat]

I'd agree with you. Its more of a "best practice" approach. Make the customer aware of the changes in requirements and allowing them the choices that they may not have otherwise been aware of 🙂 End of the day it makes for more profit installing the additional controls so I'd say in the installers interest to promote them! IMO 🙂

Not just profits, easy to work controls will save the customer money and they will have a more comfortable home, no more switching off radiators in rooms they aren't using causing draughts etc.

If you get the first customer in a mature housing estate where the neighbours talk to each other your customer can bring you a lot more business based on their satisfaction with the job.

Instead of the inconvenience of having to replace the boiler they have improved their home with an upgraded more efficient heating system, ergo value for money.

 

[Foodface]

Wow, just read this thread as I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" and they just looked at me as if I was trying to fill my boots on the job. I then asked if any other of my fellow plumbing professionals had mentioned the issue of zoning and I was told no.

The house is a small two up two down and I'm going to submit the quote with the zoning included, cos I agree with Chris but having missed out on a few big jobs due to my desire to do everything properly I am now worried that all my efforts are in vain because when it comes down to it money talks and there are too many people out there doing what they like in order to make money. I do a lot of boiler servicing and quite frankly the standard of plumbing in the area I live in is pretty poor, limited boiler/heating controls and shoddy practice, which concerns me.

Rodders I commend your resolve for clearing the issue up too.

 

[chris watkins]

Wow, just read this thread as I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" and they just looked at me as if I was trying to fill my boots on the job. I then asked if any other of my fellow plumbing professionals had mentioned the issue of zoning and I was told no.

The house is a small two up two down and I'm going to submit the quote with the zoning included, cos I agree with Chris but having missed out on a few big jobs due to my desire to do everything properly I am now worried that all my efforts are in vain because when it comes down to it money talks and there are too many people out there doing what they like in order to make money. I do a lot of boiler servicing and quite frankly the standard of plumbing in the area I live in is pretty poor, limited boiler/heating controls and shoddy practice, which concerns me.

Rodders I commend your resolve for clearing the issue up too.

Just a quick one FF. The VAT for heating controls is charged at 5% which can really help sell the extra controls to custards.

 

[Foodface]

Cheers Chris, this quote is becoming problematic. What I don't understand is that if the industry knew this change in legislation was coming then why haven't the boiler manufacturers developed integrated zoning options and controls as part of the boiler design, to save all the messing about. I was wanting to put in a RF programmer and stat, only to then read that this particular brands RF stat and receivers only work in pairs which means more money more messing about and more unhappy clients.

The zoning options for this install have already added 240 to the price of the job and I've not even started yet, plus it'll need wiring in by someone part p registered.

They are going to think I'm taking the mickey when they see the figures.

 

[peteheat]

Two quotes for the same job, one includes zoning etc to regulations and common sense, second is for bog standard install.

When surveying the job I discuss the zoning with the customer so it can save time typing for quote one, just head it recommended installation as discussed, quote two basic installation not to recommended standard as discussed.

The choice is now up to the customer, the difference is job 1 they will thank you for the savings and comfort levels the new system brings them, job 2 they can never say you didn't offer the proper job, if you have time quote 3 can be retrofit of heating controls to bring the system up t standard next year.

 

[Foodface]

Yeah that's what I've decided on, I'm going to submit the quote without and then with. I've estimated it'll cost an additional 600 ish to zone the system (not including electrical labour) and I'm going to stress the regs and importance of zoning in the quote, but my main worry is that the chances are that someone is gonna just undercut me by not mentioning the zoning issue.

I hope I get the job as I need the money big time.

 

[chris watkins]

Yeah that's what I've decided on, I'm going to submit the quote without and then with. I've estimated it'll cost an additional 600 ish to zone the system (not including electrical labour) and I'm going to stress the regs and importance of zoning in the quote, but my main worry is that the chances are that someone is gonna just undercut me by not mentioning the zoning issue.

I hope I get the job as I need the money big time.

Just make sure that you have it in writing that you explained to them the requirements under part L for full controls & that due to the costs they have chosen not to have this work carried out. They are the one's breaking the Law but you as an expert must be seen to be informing them of there duty's under the Law.

 

[Foodface]

I've submitted it now (took me all morning), explained the need for Part L and how much I estimate it would cost extra. The quote was roughly 3,500 without as there is no existing heating system in the property so it would push it well in 4,000 mark. If they opt not too then I'll get it in writing on a pre job agreement, with a signature. It's tricky this stuff, especially considering the extra wiring involved (I somehow doubt customers will be willing to pay 1000 plus for all singing and dancing wireless zone rad valves). Genuinely just wish the manufacturers would simplify the problem for us all, sooner rather than later.

 

[chris watkins]

(I somehow doubt customers will be willing to pay 1000 plus for all singing and dancing wireless zone rad valves). Genuinely just wish the manufacturers would simplify the problem for us all, sooner rather than later.

Sorry but don't understand why you need a sing / dancing system & can't see how the manufacturer could make things any simpler, we already have plug & play controls systems.

 

[Foodface]

I'm not saying you need an all dancing system, just saying that it's more attractive to fit a wireless system when you are not a qualified electrician (which many people aren't).

Personally I think the manufacturers could integrate zoning valves into the boilers and make the "plug and play" options more assessable for the new regulations. As previously explained that some of the plug and play devices only come in pairs, which means you would have to buy two sets of controllers/receivers (or more) to zone. Just saying they could make it easier and more assessable which would also cut down the task of getting the customers on board, as the they would have no option if everything was integrated into the boiler already.

Just my opinion.

 

[chris watkins]

Most of us are not qualified electrician but have had training & would say most are competent to work on heating control systems. Can I suggest the Honeywell 1day training course & some reading. An understanding of electrical control systems is now a very important part of any heating engineer work nowday's & it is only going to get more complex with time.

P.S. some boiler manufactures have incorporated controls within there system boilers but this has not proven popular due to the increase in pipework required & the in-flexibility of system design.
In this game things that appear to be simple rarely are, which may be a good thing for those that know & a bad thing for those that don't.

 

[peteheat]

If the boiler manufacturers build in the zoning systems it makes their product less flexible, it also leads to the installer and home owner being held to ransom by the manufacturers system should it break down or have faults in the software.

We did use a boiler where all controls were managed by the boiler motherboard, the theory was great in reality it was a disaster, it took them 5 years to iron out most of the software problems (an ongoing project).

As far as anyone who used the system is concerned their is nothing like a boiler that does its job of producing the heat and we remain in control of how the heat is distributed, it is much easier to replace a faulty programmer even for another make / model than it is to change out the boiler.

It is easier for all concerned to be able to add or subtract zone valves, TRV's, thermostats as needed by each individual job instead of trying to make a pre-set / pre-programmed boiler do all the jobs needed some of which it may not have been designed to do.

 

[doitmyself]

I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" ... The house is a small two up two down

I can't see what the problem is.

The advice given to "rodders" by DCLG (and you can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that) is:

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective.

If zoning the house will increase the cost by a third, £3k to £4k, it is obviously not cost-effective as the additional outlay will never be recouped in lower heating bills.

​

 

[peteheat]

I can't see what the problem is.

The advice given to "rodders" by DCLG (and you can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that) is:

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective.

If zoning the house will increase the cost by a third, £3k to £4k, it is obviously not cost-effective as the additional outlay will never be recouped in lower heating bills.

​

Depends on what you think is value for money.

First you are assuming that energy costs will not rise to a level where customers need to squeeze every BTU out of the fuel they buy and use it in the most efficient way possible, as someone in the renewable energy business I think that is about now.

Customers are better informed today and tend to know that heat rises and ask why the radiators upstairs are providing heat when it is not needed.

Then we have the comfort levels we all like in our homes, I doubt there are two rooms in my house that have the same optimum temperature to the occupiers liking, we are all individuals and modern heating controls allow us to have the comfort levels that suit us.

 

[Leo21]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

 

[chris watkins]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

O for god sake let's go back to floor standing O/F boilers, as they lasted for ever.

 

[Leo21]

Love to. I wonder if you were to do a cost comparison between the life span of a floor stander to a modern boiler what would be best. One lasts thirty years and guzzles gas, or a modern condenser with a life span of six to ten years.