CO dangers & open flue v room sealed

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Am I correct in thinking and saying

1. that roomed sealled appliances are safer than open flued appliances?

Is there anything I'm missing?

 

[Phil_Plumb]

Well im not a GSE but using my existing knowledge and common sense id say that a room sealed appliance is far safer than an open flue appliance, seeing as the ingredients and by products of combustion (oxygen and CO) are sourced and vented from and to the outside atmosphere.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Well im not a GSE but using my existing knowledge and common sense id say that a room sealed appliance is far safer than an open flue appliance, seeing as the ingredients and by products of combustion (oxygen and CO) are sourced and vented from and to the outside atmosphere.

That's my thinking too. BUt I'm not an engineer either so wondered if there was something else to consider...

 

[Barry98]

Either could become damaged or block it depends what lines your thinking of , a room sealed one is common as most don't or can't work out the room ventalation requirements for a open flued

 

[zzzjim]

In theory Sealed should be safer , but they both need maintainance ,
if fumes from room sealed one were gathered by a new structure outside it could be worst than one using chimney ! (But then I'm nit picking and unqualified too)

Which is easier / cheaper to maintain long term ?

 

[Millsy 82]

Both are perfectly safe if maintained correctly and have the correct ventilation and fluing. Room sealed are generally safer for the customer as it means they havent got a vent that they like blocking up no matter how many times you tell them not to and explain the reasons. Open flue there are a couple of other factors that can affect the operation Ie not serviced properley, wind direction but if fluing is correct then this shouldnt be a problem

Then on room sealed you have positive pressure and negative pressure case boilers which is a different story as negative pressure are safer as positive can push fumes back out into the room if the seal has gone.

 

[bewsh]

As said previously, they are both safe as long as they are installed correctly and regularly maintained. But I'd say room sealed are safer providing the seal is in good order!

 

[stevetheplumber]

room sealed are safer and ive not seem a curent model that uses positive preasure

 

[kirkgas]

room sealed are safer and ive not seem a curent model that uses positive preasure

There are loads of current boilers that are positive pressure ( my definition of current being existing and quite old, not sure if your definition is new, in which case you are right)

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Thanks all. I recall Mr TP telling me about pos & neg Pressure and reading about it - but it is precisely the sort of detail that us non-qualified people would forget about it.
Correctly installed 0bviously....

re- CO, I conclude a new installed boiler is safest because it is room sealed AND neg pressure.

So 2 questions:
Q1. What or where does the risk of CO poisoning arise from a neglected (unmaintained) latest and safest boiler? Assuming correct installation.
Or is there no risk - it will just not work very well?

Q2. Are all room sealed gas fires that are for sale now neg pressure as well? So same qustion as Q1 above about gas fires please.

 

[kirkgas]

The risk of CO getting to people from a room sealed boiler depends on a faulty seal at the combustion chamber or a broken flue joint, (potentially from a hole caused by corrosion in the combustion chamber itself)
Compete combustion depends on the correct gas & oxygen mix, as the oxygen comes from outside its very unlikely to be compromised if the seal and flue are ok, even after many years of no servicing there could be some dust etc on the burner and injector, even if it produced CO this would be be pushed out the properly sealed flue to outside so risk is minimal.

Room sealed fires: if they are fan glued they will be negative pressure now, so same as above, I can't remember if any of the old balanced flue fires were positive pressure, (one of the older guys will tell us !!!!!)

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Room sealed fires: if they are fan glued

Fan glued
i wonder what that means.... peerhas i don't need to know.

 

[heliotrope]

Thanks all. I recall Mr TP telling me about pos & neg Pressure and reading about it - but it is precisely the sort of detail that us non-qualified people would forget about it.
Correctly installed 0bviously....

re- CO, I conclude a new installed boiler is safest because it is room sealed AND neg pressure.

So 2 questions:
Q1. What or where does the risk of CO poisoning arise from a neglected (unmaintained) latest and safest boiler? Assuming correct installation.
Or is there no risk - it will just not work very well?

Q2. Are all room sealed gas fires that are for sale now neg pressure as well? So same qustion as Q1 above about gas fires please.

I am confused.

Your quote on every post 'I do not do gas work, plumbing or anything useful.'

You stated in a previous post that you are not an engineer and in this post you say that you are
non-qualified, yet you have the GS Registered banner under your forum name.

You give out gas advice on these forum yet you are asking very basic questions on gas appliances.

Do you have gas qualifications or are you using another persons gas details to get into these forums.
(The private gas register forum in particular)?

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I am an office person not a gas engineer. I've always tried to make that clear. I am involved in running a GSR business - have done for 13 years.

I don't think I give out any technical gas info anywhere - the mods would smack my legs!

Except that I do give out gas safety advice in that I strongly urge people to have appliances installed by qualified people and to have them serviced every year.
There is quite a lot about this industry that I do know - but it is all rules, TB, standards, regulations, and everything on the HSE website! I have no practical knowledge or skills.

Hence my question here. I think I know something - but I could be wrong so I wanted to check with people who are more qualified & experienced.

GS members can see
this http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/g...eers-forum/50032-hello-thread.html#post460068

 

[Dotty]

Mrs Tara Plumbing is in the gsr forum with the mods and admins blessings because of her in depth knowledge of gas management and legislation. We laid out strict guidelines for her to operate within ie. She doesn't advise on the physical or mechanical aspects of the job.

We are happy with all we've learnt from her, and happy with what she's taken away.

So how about you sit back and listen, you may actually learn something!

 

[kirkgas]

Mrs Tara Plumbing is in the gsr forum with the mods and admins blessings because of her in depth knowledge of gas management and legislation. We laid out strict guidelines for her to operate within ie. She doesn't advise on the physical or mechanical aspects of the job.

We are happy with all we've learnt from her, and happy with what she's taken away.

So how about you sit back and listen, you may actually learn something!

I agree, mrs TP has always been tip top with her input from her side of the business, ie the management side, and has kept us all right at times, she wouldn't make my top 20 if I was making a list of who we are binning from the site, haha I ( like MANY others) would bin me before I would bin her

 

[Rickster123]

Mrs Tara Plumbing is in the gsr forum with the mods and admins blessings because of her in depth knowledge of gas management and legislation. We laid out strict guidelines for her to operate within ie. She doesn't advise on the physical or mechanical aspects of the job.

We are happy with all we've learnt from her, and happy with what she's taken away.

So how about you sit back and listen, you may actually learn something!

Plus it's nice to have a women about the place. Those cushions won't plump themselves!

 

[Dotty]

Plus it's nice to have a women about the place. Those cushions won't plump themselves!

You're not on many xmas card lists are you?

 

[Reg Man]

Always enjoy Tara's contributions, lots of common sense and good regulation interpretation, as well as being entertaining.

 

[kirkgas]

Always enjoy Tara's contributions, lots of common sense and good regulation interpretation, as well as being entertaining.

The exception rather than the rule in here then

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Ok I'll post my fan club address on here later!
You're making me blush.

Heliotrope asked a fair question - he's obviously doesn't know me but he's welcome to get more familiar.

Also - I do write my fair share of inaccurate rubbish too - just like a lot of the qualified gsr guys.

 

[R1CKY]

There are loads of current boilers that are positive pressure ( my definition of current being existing and quite old, not sure if your definition is new, in which case you are right)

Technically most condensing boilers aren't strictly negative pressure. They have negative pressure combustion cases, but positive pressure burners.

I've seen a case on a Glowworm that hadn't been serviced for years, in which the burner seal had failed, was leaking POCs into the combustion sensor and going to ignition lockout because it was starving itself of oxygen. It would run for a while before this happened. Directly underneath where the seal had failed the case was starting to corrode from the hot, moist POCs. Left for a few weeks later this could have corroded right through allowing CO into the room.

 

[Dotty]

he's welcome to get more familiar.

Is that an open invite? :devilish::wink_smile:

 

[Reg Man]

Open flue / room sealed? both can be dangerous, it normally depends on if they have been installed and maintained correctly. Take the point though that positive pressure room sealed appliances can be as risky as open flued. Classic example is the old Potterton neataheats and profiles which are prone to the back plates rotting and seals breaking down, also had occasions when the service engineer didn't get the case back on squarely, reduced the effectiveness of the fan not enough to activate the pressure switch, but enough the cause vitiation on the burner and leak POC out of the case seal. Lethal!

 

[AlexGas]

Open flue boilers have an incident rate about 12 times that of room-sealed Boilers…

Check this document out. OK, the data is a bit old but...:

http://www.gas-safety-trust.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/open-gas-flued-report.pdf