Communal Rising main water pipe

[Pipeman222]

Hi all.

Doing a house renovation here at my flat that I owed for about 20 years have decided finally that time to spend some money on myself and live normally.

Basically knocked out larder cupboards and walls making a kitchen diner finally got permission from the freeholders that took about 1 year alone.

Behind one of the Larder cupboards there is as follows 4 pipes on the wall going up and down
These are down services from the the roof of the block of flats a water tank used to be attached next to where this main is.

There is one pipe this is what the problem is about 60 cm away from those pipes in other words in the actual kitchen its 28m copper and above it there is a join to about 35m copper.

At first we believed this was the down service but after realising it appears to be the water that is pumping up through all the flats into their water tanks and then into the main water tank on the roof. SoI have a water pipe in my property that does not serve me there is no stopcock at all within my property yet I am told I am responsible for it.

We want to re-route this pipe back to the wall.
Contacted Thames Water and they seemed quite confused about this pipe but did indeed find it on thier system.

What would be the best way to tackle this they told me that you could possibly try to turn this feed off from the ground but surely it's getting pumped up due to gravity? So would you not need to turn the pump off as well where would that be? Other option would be to freeze or to use an Aladdin clamp and basically to re-route the pipe back to the wall is there any issue removing this pipe I'm presuming the water will still be able to travel up the bends being about 60 cm back to the wall all and then out again 60 cm in?

Obviously for the duration of time there'll be no water being pumped up to the main storage tank I presume this will not affect the properties with the water tank in the house because the main tank upstairs has about 10000 l. And we only need 1h.

Happy to take pictures but meanwhile just wanted to pick everyone's brains and I was wondering if anyone has experienced this sort of job and are there any worries at all?

I'm pretty worried about cutting the pipe using an aladin clamp and freezing it because if something goes wrong there is no stopcock within my property to turn it off and water damage could be totally catastrophic

 

[exedon2]

I would strongly suggest you need to correctly identify what this pipe is.
Reducing in size from above suggest its dropping from above.
Freezing pipework of that size needs decent equipment and a absolute certainly that the pipework has no water flowing through it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Box it in and forget about it you won’t reroute it easily

 

[king of pipes]

You need a professional here mate firstly to identify what's feeding what and secondly if what your planning is actually achievable you can't just turn off a water supply which serves other properties without planning and permission so go easy 😉. Kop

 

[Pipeman222]

Hopefully this picture helps
. It's a horrible Pipe that's 60y old it looks rusted and it's my responsibility is dangerous as you can see it's sticking out about 60 cm into the kitchen totally in the way it needs to be rerouted.
I've got permission to do the Works.
Hopefully my previous post made sense when I was in the loft we turned off the stop cocks that was the Down service . We tested all above and below and they didnt have water meanwhile on the left area of this pipe we have water flushing out for half an hour now it doesn't Close anymore so we had to get a special fitting.

The fact the water never stopped made me call another plumber by the way I had three plumber's out here all of them gas registered.

Two out of the three said it's down service they were wrong one of them said is an old gas pipe.
Then I got another one and he told me this is the water going up into the tank in the loft which makes total sense I don't have a tank system anymore it was taken out before I got here.

You are legally allowed to turn water off as long as we notify the people 24 h notice.

The last guy who came seems to know his stuff he said he's done quite a few of these but obviously I want to check because this type is causing us a lot of problems.

Hoping to hear some positive news what's your thoughts now that you seen the picture

 

[Pipeman222]

Just to point out the picture doesn't probably show it very well but the pipes behind are the down service pipes they are not a problem they can be boxed in this one is sticking out 60 cm into the kitchen. Preventing us from creating a normal kitchen. The joining areas are old is my responsibility that it doesn't leak.
And quite frankly it can't just stay like that we all deserve the right to live in a normal property just because they done this 60 70 years ago doesn't mean it has to stay like that.

I also contacted Thames Water and they also says it's very strange they have found it on the grid and they're getting a specialist contact me it is leaking on the left so it is a hazard.

The current plumber said freezing is also an option along with a clamp.

Hope to hear something positive
Thx for help!

And yes certainly will use a professional the last chat seems pretty good as he pinpointed what the others couldn't we are 99.9% certain this is the water going up all the way through all the way through to the tank upstairs then it comes down via the other pipes which are the down service

 

[king of pipes]

It could quite easily be a rising main ? if so then it should be able to be isolated externally or even internally as it enters into your building ? If Thames water have found it on their system then I would request a site visit from one of their inspectors to investigate the possibility, the capped stopcock What did it connect to ? Is the pipework live can you hear water passing through the pipe at different times of the day? I've done load of this type of stuff in another life , if it needs rerouting it's doable with the correct planning the pipework will be imperial in size so the correct adaptors will need to be sourced, if tanks are still being supplied by this pipe then once isolated at a lower level it can be worked on if it's a down service from a tank ? Then again once the riser is isolated the tank can be drained and the pipe work altered most commercial installers use a crimp type system now for jointing pipework, fittings of all sizes are available , Any redundant pipework should be removed if it's is practically possible especially potable water such as a rising main no dead legs are allowed that means any length of pipe where water is trapped like the branch to your stop tap for instance now it's capped the water cannot be replaced this can cause bacterial growth within the pipework and is not healthy mention this when talking to Thames water. Best of luck please post back with a progress report 👍 . Regards kop

 

[Pipeman222]

Hello mate yes this is definitely live and bacteria build-up on the left side is definitely a good thing to say say that part is actually slightly leaking just so you know and it's a hazard waiting to happen because the join on the left is also corroded.

This is the pipe that feed the large water tank on the roof of the property.
Years ago it was connected to a water tank which supplies water to the bathroom and probably used to supply water to the kitchen as well.

So this water is getting pumped up 6 floors.
You're right there's probably a hexagon area outside where you have to turn this and then you can turn the water off to the tank and then you've got time to quickly re divert the pipe compression fittings etc using a plumber.

There is no internal stopcock for this.
However because the pipe is my responsibility I am going to fit my own stopcock somewhere
In the event of something going wrong which won't I'll be able to turn this obviously I'll be shutting water off to the whole building but I can prevent a catastrophe.

I called up the management organisation and they told me if the pipe is in your house is your responsibility and I told him it's leaking I didn't tell them how much but if it was leaking a lot it's still my responsibility so that's what I'm going to do.
They are going to use the angle bends to take it back up against the wall using the correct olive

Am I right to think freezing it's is probably risky?
And we better turn it off

 

[Ric2013]

If the pipe is serving the communal tank which serves the whole building (and, presumably, fire reels etc) then it is partly serving you and you would be responsible for a part of the cost of maintenance (along with the other flats, presumably).

Realistically it looks to be copper and the slight leakage is unlikely to get worse, though, being unsupported and exposed now the larder has been removed, it's now vulnerable to being knocked. Obviously it cannot stay exposed and unsupported.

I think the point of law is that the service has a right to pass through your flat but that there is no reason you cannot re-route it at your expense and with due consideration of what (if any) disturbance the temporary isolation will cause your neighbours. There should be an isolator somewhere between the water board's underground mains and this pipe. If there isn't, the water board either presumably owns and maintains that pipe (which I much doubt) or they will find their own underground isolator for you so you can have the work carried out.

Regarding freezing, it only works if you can stop the water flow in the first place, and, in any case, my inclination is to agree with others that freezing is not a sensible way to tackle this job.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Problem is you would need to get above and below to alter this pipe unless your happy with a 4” boxing top and bottom

 

[snowhead]

Firstly the Management company are wrong in saying the pipe is the responsibility of the individual flat owner.
It's a common service, it's the joint liability of all the owners but for the management company to sort out, just as the tank(s) are or the stairs or the roof. etc. and bill owners accordingly.
If any individual owner wants alterations within their flat then the cost would be for them alone.

Re altering the pipe, it's not a job for a couple of plumbers, it needs a company with resources for if / when it goes wrong.

As someone else above, to me the source would appear to be from above given the pipe size reduction, but the pipe may have been repurposed in the past.
Unless you've measured and confirmed it's metric I would have said it's imperial pipe, metric came out in 1971 / 72, I bought a new house in 1972 and it was a combination of imperial and metric pipe and fittings.

The job may go without a hitch but here is a list of some potential issues;

When the supply is restored all the crap that's been sitting happilly on the pipe walls and fittings for years will suddenly decide it's going to let go and find it's way into the tank and into any flats that are using a connection off that pipe.
That's a guarantee, been there done that on risers.
It will need disconnecting from the tank and flushing out before final reconnection or you'll need to clean out the tank and possibly pay for repairs on appliances in the flats, like blocked fill vlaves or water softeners.

If the pipe isn't sleeved in the floor above or below it may be corroded and break off, that'll mean having the floor core drilled, possibly both above and below, subject to structural engineers approval.

If it doesn't break in the floor when it's altered, it may start leaking later.

If there is any loss of water provision to other flats you may end up with a large combined hotel bill and claims for other consequential losses.

If it is pumped the pump will need turning off and if as old as the building may not restart or may leak.

Giving 24hr notice is one thing, getting everyone to agree to it is another, unless it's an emergency.

 

[Pipeman222]

If the pipe is serving the communal tank which serves the whole building (and, presumably, fire reels etc) then it is partly serving you and you would be responsible for a part of the cost of maintenance (along with the other flats, presumably).

Realistically it looks to be copper and the slight leakage is unlikely to get worse, though, being unsupported and exposed now the larder has been removed, it's now vulnerable to being knocked. Obviously it cannot stay exposed and unsupported.

I think the point of law is that the service has a right to pass through your flat but that there is no reason you cannot re-route it at your expense and with due consideration of what (if any) disturbance the temporary isolation will cause your neighbours. There should be an isolator somewhere between the water board's underground mains and this pipe. If there isn't, the water board either presumably owns and maintains that pipe (which I much doubt) or they will find their own underground isolator for you so you can have the work carried out.

Regarding freezing, it only works if you can stop the water flow in the first place, and, in any case, my inclination is to agree with others that freezing is not a sensible way to tackle this job.

Ok so I spoke to Thames Water they told me they are aware of this pipe and a specialist he spoke to me says there is an isolator valve somewhere in the ground and he identified somewhere to the left of the bin area.

The pipe is exposed and is dangerous so it needs to go. That's reassuring what you're saying it looks like we are going to find isolator and reroute the problem. Until I saw the next post

 

[Pipeman222]

Firstly the Management company are wrong in saying the pipe is the responsibility of the individual flat owner.
It's a common service, it's the joint liability of all the owners but for the management company to sort out, just as the tank(s) are or the stairs or the roof. etc. and bill owners accordingly.
If any individual owner wants alterations within their flat then the cost would be for them alone.

Re altering the pipe, it's not a job for a couple of plumbers, it needs a company with resources for if / when it goes wrong.

As someone else above, to me the source would appear to be from above given the pipe size reduction, but the pipe may have been repurposed in the past.
Unless you've measured and confirmed it's metric I would have said it's imperial pipe, metric came out in 1971 / 72, I bought a new house in 1972 and it was a combination of imperial and metric pipe and fittings.

The job may go without a hitch but here is a list of some potential issues;

When the supply is restored all the crap that's been sitting happilly on the pipe walls and fittings for years will suddenly decide it's going to let go and find it's way into the tank and into any flats that are using a connection off that pipe.
That's a guarantee, been there done that on risers.
It will need disconnecting from the tank and flushing out before final reconnection or you'll need to clean out the tank and possibly pay for repairs on appliances in the flats, like blocked fill vlaves or water softeners.

If the pipe isn't sleeved in the floor above or below it may be corroded and break off, that'll mean having the floor core drilled, possibly both above and below, subject to structural engineers approval.

If it doesn't break in the floor when it's altered, it may start leaking later.

If there is any loss of water provision to other flats you may end up with a large combined hotel bill and claims for other consequential losses.

If it is pumped the pump will need turning off and if as old as the building may not restart or may leak.

Giving 24hr notice is one thing, getting everyone to agree to it is another, unless it's an emergency.

So this is a little bit disheartening to see so just so you know I have not got a tank but people above and below me do but keep in mind this pipe goes upstairs it goes into their tank but then there is water coming down from the main tank I don't exactly know how it works but I know that this pipe feeds every single tank in the house apart from mine and then it goes upstairs to the loft and then it comes down again so you're saying if we cut the pipe about 3 inches above the ground and 3 inches below dove ceiling you're saying that it's going to cause problems for everyone's tank .?

I have no choice but to do it it's my responsibility and everyone else has tank is their responsibility

 

[Pipeman222]

Firstly the Management company are wrong in saying the pipe is the responsibility of the individual flat owner.
It's a common service, it's the joint liability of all the owners but for the management company to sort out, just as the tank(s) are or the stairs or the roof. etc. and bill owners accordingly.
If any individual owner wants alterations within their flat then the cost would be for them alone.

Re altering the pipe, it's not a job for a couple of plumbers, it needs a company with resources for if / when it goes wrong.

As someone else above, to me the source would appear to be from above given the pipe size reduction, but the pipe may have been repurposed in the past.
Unless you've measured and confirmed it's metric I would have said it's imperial pipe, metric came out in 1971 / 72, I bought a new house in 1972 and it was a combination of imperial and metric pipe and fittings.

The job may go without a hitch but here is a list of some potential issues;

When the supply is restored all the crap that's been sitting happilly on the pipe walls and fittings for years will suddenly decide it's going to let go and find it's way into the tank and into any flats that are using a connection off that pipe.
That's a guarantee, been there done that on risers.
It will need disconnecting from the tank and flushing out before final reconnection or you'll need to clean out the tank and possibly pay for repairs on appliances in the flats, like blocked fill vlaves or water softeners.

If the pipe isn't sleeved in the floor above or below it may be corroded and break off, that'll mean having the floor core drilled, possibly both above and below, subject to structural engineers approval.

If it doesn't break in the floor when it's altered, it may start leaking later.

If there is any loss of water provision to other flats you may end up with a large combined hotel bill and claims for other consequential losses.

If it is pumped the pump will need turning off and if as old as the building may not restart or may leak.

Giving 24hr notice is one thing, getting everyone to agree to it is another, unless it's an emergency.

Hello sorry could you please be so kind to elaborate a little bit I don't know what to do are you saying that if I read over this pipe I made damage everyone but I need to do it what do I do how do I get around this?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I would say it’s a feed pipe from the tanks on the roof to everyone’s hot water cylinder

 

[king of pipes]

On closer inspection I would say Shaun is correct it's a cold water down service probably feeds the hot water cylinders and possibly bathroom cold supplies .

 

[Pipeman222]

On closer inspection I would say Shaun is correct it's a cold water down service probably feeds the hot water cylinders and possibly bathroom cold supplies .

It is not the down service if you read my first post I explain that I turned the water off below and above me had no water but I had running water I think we feel this is the service going up to the tank.?

I looked into what I was told about the breed flushing through the pipe after you open the top pop this is because the stopcock is downstairs and when you open it will all come up all I can do is make sure the person is insured is that correct should anything happen we go to his public liability?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It is not the down service if you read my first post I explain that I turned the water off below and above me had no water but I had running water I think we feel this is the service going up to the tank.?

I looked into what I was told about the breed flushing through the pipe after you open the top pop this is because the stopcock is downstairs and when you open it will all come up all I can do is make sure the person is insured is that correct should anything happen we go to his public liability?

How did you turn the service off as from your pictures there’s no valve ?

 

[Ric2013]

Pipeman: I am following this with genuine interest but am finding you hard to follow. Please double check your writing after posting and use the 'edit' button (on your post) if you need to make corrections.

It looks like you are on a mobile device that is auto-correcting what you are typing and I am struggling at times to understand what you mean.

 

[king of pipes]

It is not the down service if you read my first post I explain that I turned the water off below and above me had no water but I had running water I think we feel this is the service going up to the tank.?

I looked into what I was told about the breed flushing through the pipe after you open the top pop this is because the stopcock is downstairs and when you open it will all come up all I can do is make sure the person is insured is that correct should anything happen we go to his public liability?

I was looking at the pipe size the bigger pipe drops from the ceiling into the tee marked in blue it then would have fed your flat via the branch with the stop valve on, it then reduces down marked in red this would normally denote the supply comes from above it wouldn't increase in size going up , either way once the main is identified and isolated it can be rerouted I would be asking for confirmation they are fully insured and a method statement of what and how they intend to tackle the job before committing
Regards kop

 

[WC1]

Pipeman: I am following this with genuine interest but am finding you hard to follow. Please double check your writing after posting and use the 'edit' button (on your post) if you need to make corrections.

It looks like you are on a mobile device that is auto-correcting what you are typing and I am struggling at times to understand what you mean.

It looks like Google translate or similar.

 

[Pipeman222]

Pipeman: I am following this with genuine interest but am finding you hard to follow. Please double check your writing after posting and use the 'edit' button (on your post) if you need to make corrections.

It looks like you are on a mobile device that is auto-correcting what you are typing and I am struggling at times to understand what you mean.

I'm sorry and you're absolutely right I'm on a device and I've been really busy at work I've been using voice recognition

Basically I went to the loft of the building we turned off 2 gate large valves then we went back down to my flat in the middle floor and we turned the left dead legs area hope you're following me.

During the time of about half an hour I made a contraction that was taken left dead legs area to the drain for 20-minutes the water was going at a heavy pace
However and this part is the most important upstairs and below me everyone had a no water in the bathroom we have isolated their water tank area.

Which led us to be very confused until the previous plumber came to the house and said this is the water going up and that's why you had water so that means this is the water going up into the tank on the loft. So I know this is not the down service because we had turned down service off successfully.

The only question I have is why did they not have water so quickly when they have a water tank full of water I don't actually know what the water tank does obviously I'm not a plumber.

I'm going to send some more pictures and maybe a video if possible

 

[Pipeman222]

More photos

 

[Pipeman222]

Here is the video the top section above the join is thicker below the join is 28mm copper it's difficult for you to tell on a video or a picture but above is actually thicker.
Behind are more pipes three of them go directly down through my property one of them has been soldered and kinked this potentially could be also alive but it's not in the way so I'm not too bothered about it and it hasn't been used in probably 30 years just staying like that it's the least of my worries but take a look.

 

[Pipeman222]

Here is the video the top section above the join is thicker below the join is 28mm copper it's difficult for you to tell on a video or a picture but above is actually thicker.
Behind are more pipes three of them go directly down through my property one of them has been soldered and picked this potentially could be also alive but it's not in the way so I'm not too bothered about it and it hasn't been used in probably 30 years just staying like that it's the least of my worries but take a look.

Here is a picture of that pipe on the right which is not a problem and not really the reason for this but it's good for you just to have a look at it it maybe that was the old pipe from the down service no idea why it's kinked like that
Least of my worrie as it can be boxed in and has probably been that way for 30y.

 

[Pipeman222]

I was looking at the pipe size the bigger pipe drops from the ceiling into the tee marked in blue it then would have fed your flat via the branch with the stop valve on, it then reduces down marked in red this would normally denote the supply comes from above it wouldn't increase in size going up , either way once the main is identified and isolated it can be rerouted I would be asking for confirmation they are fully insured and a method statement of what and how they intend to tackle the job before committing
Regards kop

So regarding the post which was quite scary regarding once you opened the stopcock again downstairs and the power of water flushing up the dirt and damages everyone's tank's which will potentially be a claim of over probably £100000 provided the person has public liability insurance should they try to flip liability onto me me we are covered and obviously just proceed with works would you say this is sensible?

Also I can see a lot of you out of London but is there anyone you can recommend to do this I actually even called Pimlico Plumbers and they said they don't touch anything communal.

The other guy that came seems convinced this is coming from the ground feeding the actual tank you guys not think this is accurate don't forget the water tank will need to get water somehow the tank on the roof the big tank its massive.

I'm probably happy to use him but I also want to hear from everyone else and if anyone can recommend anyone who has done this before and is very experienced please let me know and I right in thinking that insurance company will cover us?
The last thing I want is to do the rerouting and then have to sell the flat to pay them!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Commercial plumber but make sure the building owners / management are happy for you to mess around with there system/ shut everyone’s water down for a day

 

[king of pipes]

This is a commercial job and I would be using a company who specialises in that type of work. It should work something like this,
1- A surveyor visits your property to access what work needs to be done and if its achievable what materials, tooling and labour is needed ? What work needs to be done to gain control of the water isolation. If chlorination and flush of the system is needed ? A Lab test sample taken and a report produced once work is complete?
2 - Identify how this building is supplied with water ? who is responsible for the supply? access to the isolation of said supply?
3 - Contact would be made with all the People affected by this work ? The building services manager , The water company this would include a site visit by them and check isolation is possible by the external stopcock ?, The tenants effected by the work involved their and contact details ?
4 - A detailed estimate produced of the work to be done and a projected costing for that work
5 - A risk assessment and method statement put in place ? - details of how and when this work will take place.
6 - Once this has been done a period of time will be needed for these plans to be finalised and any concerns addressed.
7 - Once this is all in place then the work can go ahead
So as you see there's alot of work to be done before you even touch the pipework and any short cuts taken you are leaving yourself wide open for prosecution if something goes drastically wrong . Regards kop

 

[Ric2013]

I'm struggling with this up/down issue.

A number of us seem to be basing the 'it must be a pipe coming down' theory on the size of the pipe. I'm happy to accept that it reduces as it falls if you say it does. Being an old building, it's entirely possible a pipe has been repurposed and the direction of flow reversed and it's likely that the narrowest bore for a former gravity distributing pipe is more than sufficient for a mains or pumped pressure pipe going up.

There are better ways of checking the direction of flow than the pipe size. For one, if you are able to use that stopcock that isolates the left branch you could test the pressure against your mains or pumped pressure on that floor of the building and compare it with the metres head you would have from the loft cistern to your floor. This would certainly be a start.

 

[Pipeman222]

This is a commercial job and I would be using a company who specialises in that type of work. It should work something like this,
1- A surveyor visits your property to access what work needs to be done and if its achievable what materials, tooling and labour is needed ? What work needs to be done to gain control of the water isolation. If chlorination and flush of the system is needed ? A Lab test sample taken and a report produced once work is complete?
2 - Identify how this building is supplied with water ? who is responsible for the supply? access to the isolation of said supply?
3 - Contact would be made with all the People affected by this work ? The building services manager , The water company this would include a site visit by them and check isolation is possible by the external stopcock ?, The tenants effected by the work involved their and contact details ?
4 - A detailed estimate produced of the work to be done and a projected costing for that work
5 - A risk assessment and method statement put in place ? - details of how and when this work will take place.
6 - Once this has been done a period of time will be needed for these plans to be finalised and any concerns addressed.
7 - Once this is all in place then the work can go ahead
So as you see there's alot of work to be done before you even touch the pipework and any short cuts taken you are leaving yourself wide open for prosecution if something goes drastically wrong . Regards kop

Meanwhile my house is a building site and we can't fit the kitchen. Living out of my bedroom.
Here's what I think is probably plausible I make sure the person is heavily insured I get them to write down what they going to do this is a good idea but it's going to take about 1 year the only thing I care about is obviously liability switching over to myself but if the plumber is insured and he does the job then I am surely covered for any potential issues?

 

[Pipeman222]

I'm struggling with this up/down issue.

A number of us seem to be basing the 'it must be a pipe coming down' theory on the size of the pipe. I'm happy to accept that it reduces as it falls if you say it does. Being an old building, it's entirely possible a pipe has been repurposed and the direction of flow reversed and it's likely that the narrowest bore for a former gravity distributing pipe is more than sufficient for a mains or pumped pressure pipe going up.

There are better ways of checking the direction of flow than the pipe size. For one, if you are able to use that stopcock that isolates the left branch you could test the pressure against your mains or pumped pressure on that floor of the building and compare it with the metres head you would have from the loft cistern to your floor. This would certainly be a start.

I've examined the building basically there's about six of these pipes going in a line and they go through every single flat onto the loft the pipe is 28 m so it's not massive but theres alot of them.
They had to pass up the house because every time they go up a floor they fill a water tank which was sat right next to it. In the loft you have 6 stop cocks on the joists they all lead into the tank then gate valves that allow water to go down and in the tank.

remember the most important thing downstairs upstairs the whole building had no water in the bathroom basically everyone who had a water tank but I continued to have water going through that pipe and it was going at some pace. Remember we went to the loft and we turned the valves

We were confused until another plumber came over and said this is the water going up hence why I continued to have water.

Today we went downstairs and we walked 13 Steps from the lift directly to the little Thames Water hole and every flat seems to have one on the pavement area.

We opened it up and indeed we see a valve
This valve is directly in line with that pipe outside my property in line with the whole buildings pipe

I'm not a plumber but I do think we have found the source.

Now here's my most important question I don't want to turn it and start anything unless I know for a fact with the plumbers public liability should the crap hit the fan he is liable so all this talk about rubbish going up the pipe and destroying the water tanks or 10'000 l of water crashing down and causing maybe 5m of damage do I make sure he's got public liability and do the work some people are saying don't worry some people are really making me worry.


I think we found the valve now I just want to make sure the person doing it is properly insured perhaps we should just do the work that's what the insurance is for ?

 

[Ric2013]

so all this talk about rubbish going up the pipe and destroying the water tanks

Not destroying them. Just a risk of potential debris from the pipe going into the tank. Provided the plumber flushes the modified pipe through correctly such that any contaminated water does not go into the tank, this shouldn't be a problem.

Regaring living from a bedroom, I lived through a period when I had a ladder to go upstairs and no ground floor (I had a soil floor in one room and floor joists without boards in the other), so I've lived through this. You have my sympathy, but do be reassured: it will end eventually.

 

[Pipeman222]

Not destroying them. Just a risk of potential debris from the pipe going into the tank. Provided the plumber flushes the modified pipe through correctly such that any contaminated water does not go into the tank, this shouldn't be a problem.

Regaring living from a bedroom, I lived through a period when I had a ladder to go upstairs and no ground floor (I had a soil floor in one room and floor joists without boards in the other), so I've lived through this. You have my sympathy, but do be reassured: it will end eventually.

Yeah absolutely don't worry I am quite hard skinned but it is an inconvenience.
Basically do I just make sure he is insured correctly he is going to be touching everything he's going to be turning everything and I get a method statement from him and we just do the work? I am responsible for the pipe it's technically mine

 

[king of pipes]

Meanwhile my house is a building site and we can't fit the kitchen. Living out of my bedroom.
Here's what I think is probably plausible I make sure the person is heavily insured I get them to write down what they going to do this is a good idea but it's going to take about 1 year the only thing I care about is obviously liability switching over to myself but if the plumber is insured and he does the job then I am surely covered for any potential issues?

Sorry but it doesn't work that way everyone is out to cover their own arse and avoid being sued should something got drastically wrong , end of the day it's your choice go with whom you feel comfortable with . I understand your frustration but you asked for advice we give it to you foc , if you choose to ignore it then as the saying goes expect the best but prepare for the worst because if they can lay blame even the slightest thing on you then there's a claim I wish you every success and I'm sure it will work out 😊 kop

 

[Chuck]

Here's what I think is probably plausible I make sure the person is heavily insured I get them to write down what they going to do this is a good idea but it's going to take about 1 year the only thing I care about is obviously liability switching over to myself but if the plumber is insured and he does the job then I am surely covered for any potential issues?

About two hundred years ago someone wrote "A man who is is own lawyer has a fool for a client." and it's still so very true today.

King of Pipes knows what he's talking about. This is a job for commercial professionals.

 

[Ric2013]

In fairness, I'd be confused if I were the OP. KOP has given good advice (which won't take anywhere near a year), but what actually differentiates a firm that specialises in these from a firm that doesn't, and how does the OP know if the firm is any good? What trade membership/approval scheme or qualifications should the OP be looking for? What questions should he ask the prospective contractor?

If the OP chooses a reliable and trusted firm with a reputation to lose and that is insured for this kind of work, although the OP may be liable, it would seem likely that any counterclaim against the firm would be settled should there be an issue. It is an interesting question though - if a plumber working on a customer's house and burns down the street, who do the neighbours sue - the customer or the plumber?

The water undertaker may not be interested in a formal site visit - they may just send some guy under subcontract to label the isolator and that would be it. The building services manager may not be very au fait with this either otherwise the best course would probably be for the building manager to instruct the work and charge the OP.

I think the surveyor is a good start, so what does the OP need to look for in a surveyor? RICS? I'm just a bit unclear on how the OP would go from #28 into practical action.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

In fairness, I'd be confused if I were the OP. KOP has given good advice (which won't take anywhere near a year), but what actually differentiates a firm that specialises in these from a firm that doesn't, and how does the OP know if the firm is any good? What trade membership/approval scheme or qualifications should the OP be looking for? What questions should he ask the prospective contractor?

If the OP chooses a reliable and trusted firm with a reputation to lose and that is insured for this kind of work, although the OP may be liable, it would seem likely that any counterclaim against the firm would be settled should there be an issue. It is an interesting question though - if a plumber working on a customer's house and burns down the street, who do the neighbours sue - the customer or the plumber?

The water undertaker may not be interested in a formal site visit - they may just send some guy under subcontract to label the isolator and that would be it. The building services manager may not be very au fait with this either otherwise the best course would probably be for the building manager to instruct the work and charge the OP.

I think the surveyor is a good start, so what does the OP need to look for in a surveyor? RICS? I'm just a bit unclear on how the OP would go from #28 into practical action.

It actually could take a while as you need to get approval from the other properties to turn the main off to the whole place for a day then you have to provide temporary toilets etc

 

[Ric2013]

It actually could take a while as you need to get approval from the other properties to turn the main off to the whole place for a day then you have to provide temporary toilets etc

True, I suppose it depends how many other properties are involved and how helpful/obstructive the neighbours are feeling.

 

[king of pipes]

Post the job on a mybuilder.com they provide access to fully vetted tradesmen including plumbers and the work is fully insured if you choose my builder plus, kop

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Post the job on a mybuilder.com they provide access to fully vetted tradesmen including plumbers and the work is fully insured if you choose my builder plus, kop

Not for commercial works mate

 

[king of pipes]

I'm out on this one Shaunie 👍 think we've covered it

 

[Pipeman222]

So it isnt a mains water supply at all and you only need to give 24h notice .
When you turn it off it wont affect anyones water as this water goes up into the tank then there is a down service. So theyll have water.
The work only takes about 1h max specially if you pre cut and make ready.

I spoke to my builder to go and email his insurance company and tell them exactly what he's going to so turning a valve outside the property and then modifying the ***unal pipe
And getting it in writing that he is covered.

Then I'll do one of two things just go ahead as he is insured and has it in writing or email the freeholders asking for for advice on the situation.and confirmation what were about to do. Meanwhile I'll probably end up losing my builder if I keep delaying this..

Regarding commercial plumbers I've spoken to a lot nobody really wants to take the job on and even called up Pimlico Plumbers and they said they don't take anything communal..

I feel stuck some what I'm hoping to come across someone that has dealt with this exact scenario in the past I can't be the only person.
I would love to hear someone say don't worry about it I've done this before something like that but looks like no one has so far.

Does anyone know how this down service water tank system works exactly Thames Water seemed a little bit shocked that I have a pipe in my house that doesn't serve me without a a stopcock.

Like I say it looks like I have found the valve directly outside 3 Floors down in line with this pipe about a metre in the pavement.

My first point of call going to be my builder make sure he's specifically insured for this.

I take every piece of advice you have given here ultimately I need to make the decision.

I would love someone who has experience doing this has the right insurance take this on

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Your contradicting your self the tank will be fed with mains water

Also the work will take longer than an hour as your going to have to solder it no pushfit

Also your builder isn’t capable of doing this work

 

[snowhead]

I stopped posting but kept viewing as I guessed how this thread would run.

However, given the information since I last posted I would say the position is as below;

Each flat has it's own dedicated mains supply to the kitchen sink from the stop taps found outside and this is the supply being used for everything in the flat that's the subject of this thread.

Additionally there will be an extra stop tap for a feed direct to the Landlord / Freeholders tank in / on the roof.
From that tank there will be several drops to the flats below, reducing in size as they go.
These will have been cold feed to the cylinder, cold for the bathroom taps and W.C

The cut off bent over pipe will be the vent from the old cylinder and it would then seem most likely that the other adjacent pipes are vents from cylinders in the flats below.

Final post.

 

[Pipeman222]

I stopped posting but kept viewing as I guessed how this thread would run.

However, given the information since I last posted I would say the position is as below;

Each flat has it's own dedicated mains supply to the kitchen sink from the stop taps found outside and this is the supply being used for everything in the flat that's the subject of this thread.

Additionally there will be an extra stop tap for a feed direct to the Landlord / Freeholders tank in / on the roof.
From that tank there will be several drops to the flats below, reducing in size as they go.
These will have been cold feed to the cylinder, cold for the bathroom taps and W.C

The cut off bent over pipe will be the vent from the old cylinder and it would then seem most likely that the other adjacent pipes are vents from cylinders in the flats below.

Final post.

I sent you a private message but looks like you're onto something however the only thing you didn't explain was the big pipe that's in the way that is not connected to the kitchen main.

Am I right to think it's a seperate main going up to the tank. Remember when I turned off the the gate valves they had no water in their bathroom but this dead legs on the left continued to continued to flush water .
I'm also speaking to a local plumber but I want to be overly sure as nobody really knows exactly what this is my builder as well of course you're right it's not really a job for him..

I appreciate it was your last post but as you can see it's not totally resolved yet so you kind of said the man's coming in from the kitchen only but this pipe why is it live.
The other pipe was the kink obviously isn't in the way so that can just stay like that.

Are these still need advice.
If you prefer not to post I would be grateful if you contact me privately
If you can pinpoint this and solve the mystery I'm happy to send you over some money I'm serious

 

[king of pipes]

I would expect one of those gate valves on the big cold water storage tank on the roof would isolate the pipe you need to reroute? I would guess that pipe was a cold feed to the removed hot water cylinder maybe something like a Elson type cylinder? Google it ? , as your neighbours still have these installed that's why there's still water being used through that pipe, the way to check is trace the pipe back to the tank if possible ? you know which gate valve isolates the bathroom cold supply so it's not that one ok ! if there's another gate valve close to that turn that off ? you will need to run a hot tap for a good few minutes in a neighbours property or rig a hose up connected to the branch hanging down via the stop tap in your property into a drain you may well find you eventually gain control, it's not unusual to find these gate valves partially pass water even when fully closed sometimes this is manageable with proper planning , having the replacement pipe pre made and fitted as much as possible allowing the last couple of joints to be done really helps, I would honestly advise using a crimp machine and the appropriate fittings avoiding any hot work and if there's a little water then it's not a issue as long as it's manageable . Regards Kop

 

[Pipeman222]

I would expect one of those gate valves on the big cold water storage tank on the roof would isolate the pipe you need to reroute? I would guess that pipe was a cold feed to the removed hot water cylinder maybe something like a Elson type cylinder? Google it ? , as your neighbours still have these installed that's why there's still water being used through that pipe, the way to check is trace the pipe back to the tank if possible ? you know which gate valve isolates the bathroom cold supply so it's not that one ok ! if there's another gate valve close to that turn that off ? you will need to run a hot tap for a good few minutes in a neighbours property or rig a hose up connected to the branch hanging down via the stop tap in your property into a drain you may well find you eventually gain control, it's not unusual to find these gate valves partially pass water even when fully closed sometimes this is manageable with proper planning , having the replacement pipe pre made and fitted as much as possible allowing the last couple of joints to be done really helps, I would honestly advise using a crimp machine and the appropriate fittings avoiding any hot work and if there's a little water then it's not a issue as long as it's manageable . Regards Kop

Hi I close all the gate valves and I ran that little branch on the left for half an hour.
I traced that particular pipe up and found the particular stopcock but I also turned off the gate valve where that lead to if that makes sense.

Is it not plausible that they're getting the main water from the pipe I'm trying to re-route?

 

[king of pipes]

Its not impossible I suppose ? but it's wouldn't be as it was installed and there would be a alteration done to redirect the mains water into the down service pipework usually at the tank if its untouched then its less likely I would say , you need control of that water if its tank or mains? ideally the mains, get the plumber involved to get on to Thames water sometimes you need to not take no for a answer . Kop

 

[Pipeman222]

Hopefully this picture helps
. It's a horrible Pipe that's 60y old it looks rusted and it's my responsibility is dangerous as you can see it's sticking out about 60 cm into the kitchen totally in the way it needs to be rerouted.
I've got permission to do the Works.
Hopefully my previous post made sense when I was in the loft we turned off the stop cocks that was the Down service . We tested all above and below and they didnt have water meanwhile on the left area of this pipe we have water flushing out for half an hour now it doesn't Close anymore so we had to get a special fitting.

The fact the water never stopped made me call another plumber by the way I had three plumber's out here all of them gas registered.

Two out of the three said it's down service they were wrong one of them said is an old gas pipe.
Then I got another one and he told me this is the water going up into the tank in the loft which makes total sense I don't have a tank system anymore it was taken out before I got here.

You are legally allowed to turn water off as long as we notify the people 24 h notice.

The last guy who came seems to know his stuff he said he's done quite a few of these but obviously I want to check because this type is causing us a lot of problems.

Hoping to hear some positive news what's your thoughts now that you seen the picture

Good evening everybody.
I'm hoping some of you very good people out there will remember this post of mine.

Here is what the situation is.
Decided not to freeze as it was too risky we had to repair the valve on the roof which was directly underneath this pipe.
It took the freeholder about 1 year to fix it absolutely Madness but don't ask.
They've eventually replaced it.
If you remember I was a little bit confused what this actually was because I have turned some Gate valves on the storage tank and for 25 minutes the water did not stop.
Well we now know exactly what this is "it is the town service which feed the hot water cylinders"
I have highlighted this post as it contains the photograph for quick review.
Have you can see my property does not have the water tank. Hence why this needs to be rerouted.


Well I'm leaving it a bit late but tomorrow is the faithful day.

The section of the joint appears to be 35 ml imperial I think we're going to go and work off that. We have a soldering joint 35 ml reducing to 28 ml. We also have the compression 35ml going to 28 mil.
The section at the concrete and the section at the bottom below the concrete would it be ok to use soldering joints or do these need to be compression? Yes I am using a plumber fully insured he has initially said soldering joint all the way?
I have taken notes to thoroughly clean the sections as somebody has also advised that it can damage the risers beneath me they have also said to be careful it does not crack in the concrete that's going to be quite a nightmare.


I suppose I'm a little bit nervous even though he has insurance. And I would just like to know the best methods to reroute.
And any other tips along the way that I can tell the plumber tomorrow morning.
He says he has plenty of commercial experience and he's done this many times before but obviously another question I want to have is what happens if something goes wrong and a crack does appear in the middle of the concrete.
That will be quite difficult to rectify won't it?
I know I'm worrying before nothing happened but sometimes it's good to have that mindset so you can be prepared for it.

It will be wonderful to hear from you all again thank you very much

 

[Pipeman222]

Hello everyone unfortunately this is not been resolved yet.
Long story short the valve was not repaired on that day it took another 6 months and I lost the plumber who was interested many plumbers are not interested in doing the job so I found another one
He came he turned the valve and then eventually hot water started coming out he stopped it and said he has to investigate further and that it could be some sort of a back feed and he's not sure and now he's also disappeared.

This is very frustrating God only knows what I would do if there was a seriously on this pipe there is no control in my property.

Pimlico Plumbers do not do communal many other companies have disappeared after I asked them for insurance because it's a requirement from the freeholder.

I've posted the job in the job section as well but I really just want some further advice and if anyone is at all able to take this on anywhere in the country please let me know and I will pay travel costs along with your time rate

We are really looking for help here

 

[Lou]

(Just bumping a few older threads, they will drop off what is new soon)

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