Customer Expectations and “Know It All’s”

[Minster]

This is probably just to vent but I wonder if anyone else is experiencing customers accepting quotes, having the work done and then refusing to pay despite being satisfied with the work.

It‘s happened to us four times in as many weeks now and the “excuse” is they have costed the materials themselves from internet prices and then way under calculated material costs and come up with extortionate labour charges (by their calculations) and begrudge paying what they have calculated as stupid money for our labour charge? They want the invoice reduced to a “sensible” labour charge before they will settle the bill. All this based on their inexperienced rough calculations!

Anyone got any words of advice? Thanks.

 

[hometech]

What is simple is a well worded estimate or quote listing clearly the deliverables and any thing that isn't included.

well there you go....now that sounds a lot like a written contract LOL

 

[Murdoch]

well there you go....now that sounds a lot like a written contract LOL

Best you read the op again because he said he writes quotes

 

[hometech]

Best you read the op again because he said he writes quotes

but the important difference (a quotation is like "invitation to treat") once you have a signature from the customer (and you of course) the quotation becomes a contract. If it's not signed off then its still a proposal for work. Do you understand?

 

[oz-plumber]

but the important difference (a quotation is like "invitation to treat") once you have a signature from the customer (and you of course) the quotation becomes a contract. If it's not signed off then its still a proposal for work. Do you understand?

I would have thought that providing a quotation and receiving a deposit from a customer would bind a contract.

Sending through a deposit would mean that you have read and understood the quotation.

I would argue that's as good as a a signature, if not better.

You could argue about whether it's your signature or not, but not when you transfer money from you account to another account.

Saying that, there are people that will never pay the full amount and know what a hassle it is for you to chase them for the remaining amount.

 

[hometech]

I would have thought that providing a quotation and receiving a deposit from a customer would bind a contract.

Sending through a deposit would mean that you have read and understood the quotation.

I would argue that's as good as a a signature, if not better.

You could argue about whether it's your signature or not, but not when you transfer money from you account to another account.

Saying that, there are people that will never pay the full amount and know what a hassle it is for you to chase them for the remaining amount.

Oh dear, no wonder this is common place with plumbers. A contract is not a contract if its unfair. So I could sign.agree accept BUT challenge on it being unfair (and forced to accept unfair terms) Unless you make claim to an associated event (by sending part payment you accept to be bound by our T&C's, in accepting our quote you.... for example). You don't need a signature to have a binding contract, A shop does not have to give you a receipt, you do not need a receipt to return damaged goods etc. The main point is "you could argue" and that's what it will come down to in a small claims court. Then its the best solicitor wins... looks like there should be a thread on the basics of contract law...you lot seem to be way over exposed to claw backs and counter claims.

 

[Murdoch]

but the important difference (a quotation is like "invitation to treat") once you have a signature from the customer (and you of course) the quotation becomes a contract. If it's not signed off then its still a proposal for work. Do you understand?

I don't understand you

The op sent a quote or estimate and the customer accepted by email as I understand it so that's the agreement.

 

[hometech]

I don't understand you

The op sent a quote or estimate and the customer accepted by email as I understand it so that's the agreement.

great opening defense in the small claims court...LOL

 

[Minster]

Unless your quote is very badly drafted, they get to suck it up and pay the quoted total for the specified work.

OTOH, you might want to review how you set out and write your quotations. E.g. in some cases you might just want to put 'labour £500' rather than 'labour 20hrs @ £25/hr' or 'labour 4hrs @ 125/hr'. These all add up to the same total but send different messages. Are you marking up the cost of materials because you are trying to keep your labour rate down? If so, perhaps you are overdoing it and need to increase your labour rate.

Personally, I think people are happier paying the higher labour charge than a big mark up provided the standard of work justifies it, which I assume it does in your case. "He was expensive but gave me a reasonable price and good warranty for the boiler and the work was excellent." is a better story to leave someone with than "He charged me £2k for a boiler I could have bought online for £1k."

We don't separate out our quotes, it goes something like this - Worcester Bosch *** boiler, horizontal flue, magnetic particle filter, pipe & fittings, powerflush system & drain, install boiler, refill system, add inhibitor, test and commission boiler and register with Gas-Safe. Includes labour and sundries.

We don't add a markup to the materials as such. We have been estimating for over 50 years now so we know the approx. cost of each component so our quotes are pretty accurate but we don't have the time to sit down and itemise every item at a cost then add a markup.

What the customer seems to be doing is browsing the internet for the components and choosing the wrong ones at the wrong prices then saying well "materials are X, so labour must be X". The other issue with the labour is we don't specify how many days the job will take in our quote, we may say to the customer that it will take 1 - 2 days but then if it only takes one they feel they should have a discount on the labour! Just can't win.

I agree with your statement about a customers thoughts on pricing.

 

[oz-plumber]

Oh dear, no wonder this is common place with plumbers. A contract is not a contract if its unfair. So I could sign.agree accept BUT challenge on it being unfair (and forced to accept unfair terms) Unless you make claim to an associated event (by sending part payment you accept to be bound by our T&C's, in accepting our quote you.*** for example). You don't need a signature to have a binding contract, A shop does not have to give you a receipt, you do not need a receipt to return damaged goods etc. The main point is "you could argue" and that's what it will come down to in a small claims court. Then its the best solicitor wins... looks like there should be a thread on the basics of contract law...you lot seem to be way over exposed to claw backs and counter claims.

Oh dear....
What is unfair about these contracts.

-Plumber provides quotation.
-Customer accepts quotation and pays deposit as per quotation.
-Plumber does work as per quotation.
-Customer wants to review pricing of quoted works after job done.

There doesn't seem to be any question of the standard of works done - just wanting a price reduction.

The customer also has the right to get other quotes from other plumbers.
They also have the right to choose who they want to do the works from the quotations

Maybe they choose the plumber who they think will be the easiest to rip off at the end of the job

 

[hometech]

Oh dear.***
What is unfair about these contracts.

-Plumber provides quotation.
-Customer accepts quotation and pays deposit as per quotation.
-Plumber does work as per quotation.
-Customer wants to review pricing of quoted works after job done.

There doesn't seem to be any question of the standard of works done - just wanting a price reduction.

The customer also has the right to get other quotes from other plumbers.
They also have the right to choose who they want to do the works from the quotations

Maybe they choose the plumber who they think will be the easiest to rip off at the end of the job

oh dear...someone is not familiar with Jurisprudence are they!
Because you "believe it to be so" does not "make it so" under common law. You might not agree, you might have another view point or perspective; it makes no difference. Facts are facts, the law is the law.
A quotation is not a contract but it can be used as the basis of a contract (as is or with modifications) and then converted to such by both parties formalising the quotation. The same applies to an "estimate" vs a "quotation". Here is my estimate..you do the work...you ask for 20% more...is that legal? of course, you estimated the cost, you did not give a specific "quotation" for the job. So until consumers and suppliers understand the law is the law, not what they think it should be, there will forever be situations which create grief. Start with the basics of knowing the difference between an "estimate, quotation and contract" and you're almost there.
ps as the economic decline speeds up, I believe these situations will become more frequent.

"Caveat emptor" applies to both the seller and the buyer....​

 

[Minster]

I'm almost afraid to ask but are people undertaking work without a written contract? No contract then it becomes verbal then it becomes I said she said. Same applies to supply of goods and the law. If I supply hardware to a customer, I am the seller and I am the buyer from my supplier which means consumer protection laws apply to me as the seller. If the customer argued the goods were faulty (6 months) then I have to replace of refund at my cost and then try and make a claim against my supplier in which case my first admision is that I resold the goods and in doing so, relinquished rights.

We have a terms of trade contract which is supplied at the same time as the quote and the quote says "by paying a deposit the customer accepts our terms of trade".

 

[Minster]

Oh dear.***
What is unfair about these contracts.

-Plumber provides quotation.
-Customer accepts quotation and pays deposit as per quotation.
-Plumber does work as per quotation.
-Customer wants to review pricing of quoted works after job done.

There doesn't seem to be any question of the standard of works done - just wanting a price reduction.

The customer also has the right to get other quotes from other plumbers.
They also have the right to choose who they want to do the works from the quotations

Maybe they choose the plumber who they think will be the easiest to rip off at the end of the job

You've got it in one, swines are happy with the work and happy to put you through hoops but once they have the upper hand ie the work is done and they have all the pricey materials installed they want to negotiate the cost down...

 

[hometech]

We have a terms of trade contract which is supplied at the same time as the quote and the quote says "by paying a deposit the customer accepts our terms of trade".

so you have provided a hard copy of the terms (if it were digital they can argue they were not able to access and read them) so it is considered binding.

 

[hometech]

There is another aspect of course, which is the terms and conditions of the customer towards your business and once you have taken a deposit it will be impossible to implement terms that were not already explicitly agreed before you accepted the deposit. It cuts both ways. For example, having provided a deposit, can they cancel? if they cancel, do you state you can keep a percentage of the deposit? All agreements need to made made in writing and before you accept any payment.
You change a tap in an expensive bath. They provide the tap, you charge £20 for example. You drop the tap into the bath, ruined a £1000 bath which they state you are responsible for as you caused the damage. Even with insurance, which I'm certain you all have, the insurance company will look for ways not to pay and will first refer back to the terms and conditions you both agreed upon before the work was started or payment made.

 

[Minster]

There is another aspect of course, which is the terms and conditions of the customer towards your business and once you have taken a deposit it will be impossible to implement terms that were not already explicitly agreed before you accepted the deposit. It cuts both ways. For example, having provided a deposit, can they cancel? if they cancel, do you state you can keep a percentage of the deposit? All agreements need to made made in writing and before you accept any payment.
You change a tap in an expensive bath. They provide the tap, you charge £20 for example. You drop the tap into the bath, ruined a £1000 bath which they state you are responsible for as you caused the damage. Even with insurance, which I'm certain you all have, the insurance company will look for ways not to pay and will first refer back to the terms and conditions you both agreed upon before the work was started or payment made.

Deposit is refundable if we have any unforeseen reason not to perform the contract and refundable less any materials/expenses not able to be returned in the case the customer cancels. I would consider it a fair contract and to stand up in law it needs to be fair.

 

[hometech]

Deposit is refundable if we have any unforeseen reason not to perform the contract and refundable less any materials/expenses not able to be returned in the case the customer cancels. I would consider it a fair contract and to stand up in law it needs to be fair.

So how do you handle the legal situation of where you are the seller of a combi boiler and consumer rights to have it replaced or refunded should it malfunction within 6 months (no arguments whatsoever) and covering at least a year that covers replacement or repair. We provide a shopping list for costly equipment they they buy it and where we purchase on behalf of the customer, we use the customers details for the purchase. Do plumbers become the seller of combi's rather than just being installers?

 

[Minster]

So how do you handle the legal situation of where you are the seller of a combi boiler and consumer rights to have it replaced or refunded should it malfunction within 6 months (no arguments whatsoever) and covering at least a year that covers replacement or repair. We provide a shopping list for costly equipment they they buy it and where we purchase on behalf of the customer, we use the customers details for the purchase. Do plumbers become the seller of combi's rather than just being installers?

We go out FOC to inspect the boiler, confirm it is defective and then call out the manufacturer to repair under the warranty.

 

[hometech]

We go out FOC to inspect the boiler, confirm it is defective and then call out the manufacturer to repair under the warranty.

and if this happens within the first 6 months and you have an informed customer, consumer law demands you have to provide a refund if requested....if you refused (outlined as above) and ended up in court having contravened consumer laws, what would your defence be?

 

[Minster]

and if this happens within the first 6 months and you have an informed customer, consumer law demands you have to provide a refund if requested....if you refused (outlined as above) and ended up in court having contravened consumer laws, what would your defence be?

We may not have a defence, we'd cross that bridge it if happened. To be honest, nothing is ever straightforward and if we were to worry about that scenario there'd be no point in our trading or any other heating firm offering their services either! Seems in this industry you're on a hiding to nothing no matter how reputable, hard-working and honest you are!

Out of curiosity what would YOU do?

I looked up the law "If a product develops a fault within the first six months after purchase, it's assumed it has been present since the time of purchase. ... If a repair or replacement has failed, you have the right to reject the goods for a full refund or price reduction."

 

[hometech]

We may not have a defence, we'd cross that bridge it if happened. To be honest, nothing is ever straightforward and if we were to worry about that scenario there'd be no point in our trading or any other heating firm offering their services either! Seems in this industry you're on a hiding to nothing no matter how reputable, hard-working and honest you are!

Out of curiosity what would YOU do?

I don't ever allow my company to ever get into that situation, that would be irresponsible and stupid. Imagine the hit on an 8K 70 inch TV that was defective and the client just asking for money back. I'd get it replaced by the supplier of course but then I'd have a an expensive bit of kit looking for a home. I have clients who pay large sums of money for automation in their expensive homes. They demand the best, I provide the best and as such, I conduct the business with the utmost professionalism and attention to detail. I have a duty of care to the business and the clients and myself to take the time to understand the consequences of not accepting the consequences.