P
Puddle
Must admit ,I never work for builders,always direct to customer(lost to much money in my younger days 🙁)which is what happened here,can not see what the builder was doing getting involved
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difficult customer
- Thread starter iain
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View the thread, titled "difficult customer" which is posted in UK Plumbers Forums on UK Plumbers Forums.
T
tamz
E
easyt
When I was in my twenties I did quite a few foreigners and I used to declare a good portion of what I earned (not the gifts). But I used to pay my wife (who was not working) the full amount of her tax allowance to keep my books and act as secretary. This meant I was able to stand my ground. On one occasion I was organising work in rented houses. I supervised the works (before my main employment at lunch times odd drop ins whilst passing on firms business after work odd half days etc.) I had a young guy chase out walls, I ran cabling and organised a sparks and there was a builder working. On one property I refused to pay the builder until he cleared up his mess. He told me I couldn't do that and if I did he would report me to the tax people. I told him to go spin. He finally cleaned up and got paid in full.
The point of the story is he did report me. I know because I had a meeting with the tax inspector a couple of weeks and we were on good terms. We had a laugh about it and he said he couldn't tell me who it was but they were now considering investigating the person. I said if it was Mr **** . He has worked for me recently on these dates and was paid this much. A month or two later the builder was after my blood because it was going to cost him dear and the IR were demanding details of his work for the previous 7 years and had made a ridiculously high assessment to put pressure on him. I almost felt sorry for him.
The point is if you do foreigners and conceal it from the tax man you cant afford to upset people. If you are more honest you cam.
The point of the story is he did report me. I know because I had a meeting with the tax inspector a couple of weeks and we were on good terms. We had a laugh about it and he said he couldn't tell me who it was but they were now considering investigating the person. I said if it was Mr **** . He has worked for me recently on these dates and was paid this much. A month or two later the builder was after my blood because it was going to cost him dear and the IR were demanding details of his work for the previous 7 years and had made a ridiculously high assessment to put pressure on him. I almost felt sorry for him.
The point is if you do foreigners and conceal it from the tax man you cant afford to upset people. If you are more honest you cam.
B
Billy Bob Bob
a point well put to the op read this,learn from your experience and move on
If you are in business, your head has to come before your heart - whilst you might feel sorry for someone, it is another thing to take responsibility for their bad luck and cock ups!
If I remember back in the dim past when I was training, soil stacks are tested using air pressure/mano meters only - bet the building regs are clear about this.
Dont get pulled into feeling sorry for your customer, who seems to be on a run of bad luck - never trust 'bob the builder' he is almost always a numpty, and certainly doesn't know plumbing proceedure . . .
You will learn to spot them in advance, and steer well clear - or be doubly careful:
- People who are bad luck magnets (you will be clearing up their mess for them!)
- People who are 'high maintenance' (you have to figure the stress of working with them into your quote!)
- People who are dishonest (watch for the warning signs . . )
- People who are arsholes (if they are complaining before you even start, then beware)
My quoting policy is thus: if I even get a hint that you are one of the above, then I will add 30-50% on top of the quote . . .
A friend of mine, who has had 30 year in the trade has this theory:
1) if they dont take the job, then at least I have saved myself stress . . .
2) if they do take the job, then at least I am getting well paid - there is nothing worse than a nightmare job, that you are being paid peanuts for . . .
If i like the person, and trust them then I am more likely to give them a good quote!
Dont ever be blind to their shortcomings - man you need to be an expert in reading people to work in domestic plumbing, without getting ripped off!
If I remember back in the dim past when I was training, soil stacks are tested using air pressure/mano meters only - bet the building regs are clear about this.
Dont get pulled into feeling sorry for your customer, who seems to be on a run of bad luck - never trust 'bob the builder' he is almost always a numpty, and certainly doesn't know plumbing proceedure . . .
You will learn to spot them in advance, and steer well clear - or be doubly careful:
- People who are bad luck magnets (you will be clearing up their mess for them!)
- People who are 'high maintenance' (you have to figure the stress of working with them into your quote!)
- People who are dishonest (watch for the warning signs . . )
- People who are arsholes (if they are complaining before you even start, then beware)
My quoting policy is thus: if I even get a hint that you are one of the above, then I will add 30-50% on top of the quote . . .
A friend of mine, who has had 30 year in the trade has this theory:
1) if they dont take the job, then at least I have saved myself stress . . .
2) if they do take the job, then at least I am getting well paid - there is nothing worse than a nightmare job, that you are being paid peanuts for . . .
If i like the person, and trust them then I am more likely to give them a good quote!
Dont ever be blind to their shortcomings - man you need to be an expert in reading people to work in domestic plumbing, without getting ripped off!
I
iain
i've not declared yet but i'm a new buisness and don't pay tax for the first 2 years anyway. i have records of everything i was paid to date, but never issued a formal invoice. the money doesn't worry me anywhere near as much as my reputation though.
there is a reason that soil stacks are tested with air, as most of the connections are made with push fit couplers.
Get a copy of the building regs, and sit down with the guy to talk it through - I would say it is the builders fault for suggesting to test in that way, and the customer for allowing it without the trained plumber who fitted it being onsite . . .
I personally would'nt have anything to do with it - and any insurance poilcy that you might have would not pay out, as the damage was cause by inappropiate actions of others, and not your work.
What reputation are you trying to save? If you think you are going to be able to work without disputes you have another thing coming. You can try and talk it through and come to a reasonable arrangement.
I usually tell my customers that they should not either take advice from, or have work done by builders as they are not qualified to do plumbing and electrical work, and neither do they have the knowhow to do it properly . . .
Bob the builder is the creation of the lazy public who cannot be bothered to deal with individual tradesmen who are experts in their fields - the builder is a glorified handyman!!
I even have a clause in my contract that covers this - in the event that the customer brings a third party in to 'rectify' my work, I will have no liability or further responisibilty to garentee the work - he should have asked you to look into carrying out these test yourself. As soon as the builder touched your work it became his responsibilty.
Get a copy of the building regs, and sit down with the guy to talk it through - I would say it is the builders fault for suggesting to test in that way, and the customer for allowing it without the trained plumber who fitted it being onsite . . .
I personally would'nt have anything to do with it - and any insurance poilcy that you might have would not pay out, as the damage was cause by inappropiate actions of others, and not your work.
What reputation are you trying to save? If you think you are going to be able to work without disputes you have another thing coming. You can try and talk it through and come to a reasonable arrangement.
I usually tell my customers that they should not either take advice from, or have work done by builders as they are not qualified to do plumbing and electrical work, and neither do they have the knowhow to do it properly . . .
Bob the builder is the creation of the lazy public who cannot be bothered to deal with individual tradesmen who are experts in their fields - the builder is a glorified handyman!!
I even have a clause in my contract that covers this - in the event that the customer brings a third party in to 'rectify' my work, I will have no liability or further responisibilty to garentee the work - he should have asked you to look into carrying out these test yourself. As soon as the builder touched your work it became his responsibilty.
Whoever told you that was trying to get you in court with tax evasion.
you have an allowance like everyone else, you will still have to fill in a Self Assessment come Oct next year, and anything over your allowance is taxable, dont forget your Class 2 and 4 NIC. If youe VAT registered - remember they are the ONLY people who can break into your home without notice or warrant any time they like - so keep those books spot on!
If you need any help, I used to work in the Tax office on schedule D (old self employed section) and had many people investigated for evasion and its is a long painful process going through your 7 years of books. Although the fines are a lot lower these days and based on level of 'accidental or known evasion' its still not good to mention in public if cash is going through books or not.
Oh, and modern software will take about 2.5 seconds to search public forums like this for keywords linked to benefit and tax evasion.
Since starting property developing I always ask my trades for a cash price, I never ask where the cash is going, but a lot of people don't then give a cash price as It costs more to bank.
J
johnmcginty
All my materials are mine until paid for in full, if he dont pay up just go round and collect all your copper and endfeed and yorkshire , and waste pipes and plaster and fittings etc
M
mooreofdevizes
John, good advice about materials are yours until paid for in full. Be aware that you need the owners permission to go into their property to recover it.
O
oldplumber
So you tell them youve popped in to do the final snagging bits, then whip out the boiler and leave it all capped off saftely with the meter capped etc, then bu**er off quickly. simples. Ask for payment to come back with boiler, cash only, then leave the boiler on the floor, after all youve fitted it once! Might get some stick, but youve got to try everything.
Other option is to use a company like silvermans, who specialise in debt recovery, costs you some £300 to register then the custard is responsible for their costs and they are very good at collecting, and they do it legally even tho some of their staff are built like king kong in a suit! http://www.danielssilverman.co.uk/
Other option is to use a company like silvermans, who specialise in debt recovery, costs you some £300 to register then the custard is responsible for their costs and they are very good at collecting, and they do it legally even tho some of their staff are built like king kong in a suit! http://www.danielssilverman.co.uk/
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E
End Feed
Stick to your guns and insist on payment. You tested to required pressure as per regs and he broke the system with his stupidity. Cash payment doesn't mean you weren't going to declare it to the tax man so don't let him think he's got you over a barrel because of cash payment.
T
tamz
Not so easy to do in real life i'm afraid.
Actual true story.
A plumber mate of mine did a bathroom suite for a woman a few years back and she wouldn't pay up. She always had some excuse of this or that not right.
After repeated visits to check out and rectify any complaints which were non existant he told her to write every small item she was not happy with down and he would pop round and make sure he went through the lot until she was happy.
Turned up the next day with the boy, very pleasant exchanges and said right i better turn the water off and crack on with the list.
He took everything out except the bath as it was tiled in (took the taps and waste tho) and put the lot in the van. When done he went downstairs and spoke to the woman said that was him, and put the water back on. Must dash as i've just had an emergency call with water pouring through a ceiling. You just check it in your own time and i'll ring you later.
Never got to the end of the street when she was on the phone screaming blue murder. Told her she could keep the bath .
Had the police at him later that night, but as the materials were bought and paid for by him and no damage was caused they said it was a civil matter.
Had one lawyers letter which he ignored.
No money but plenty satisfaction.😀
I also used to know a couple of guys who wore crombies all the time Talking to them one night, happened to mention i had one cust who wouldn't pay me £600 and odd quid. They said they would buy the debt for £200 then it was then their problem. So i thinks £200 is better than nothing, ok.
I almost felt sorry for those people. Almost. It cost them a lot more than what they were due😱 I never took up their offers a second time.
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Yeah, I knew a character you could always sell a debt too. I never did it, but I know other tradesmen who did. I think it's a fairly dark practise, and I would never do it. Two wrongs don't make a right. Do it legally, take them to court and if you still end up without the money, at least you can look yourself in the eye.
We all get knocked eventually.
I had some pikey who bought a hair salon knock me years ago. Two of us fitted out his new salon, at an agreed hourly rate. When it came to paying, he insisted the hourly rate was for both of us, not each. I.e he wanted to pay 50% of the bill. He paid us some and after a chat, told us to come back for the rest the next day after he had been to the bank. The next day I recieved a phone call from a girl who was planning to work at the salon. She told me the guy was waiting with a bottle of battery acid to spray in my face when I walked in the door. Utter scumbag, I never did get my money. I know the girl wasn't lieing or in on it. I was tempted to make a call to the horrible debt collector guy, but I figure if you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.
Oh coincidentially, the horrible debt collector guy is now in prison, it was in the local paper. He was a loan shark, pimp and human traffiker. Not the sort of person I would ever associate with, so I'm glad I didn't call him.
We all get knocked eventually.
I had some pikey who bought a hair salon knock me years ago. Two of us fitted out his new salon, at an agreed hourly rate. When it came to paying, he insisted the hourly rate was for both of us, not each. I.e he wanted to pay 50% of the bill. He paid us some and after a chat, told us to come back for the rest the next day after he had been to the bank. The next day I recieved a phone call from a girl who was planning to work at the salon. She told me the guy was waiting with a bottle of battery acid to spray in my face when I walked in the door. Utter scumbag, I never did get my money. I know the girl wasn't lieing or in on it. I was tempted to make a call to the horrible debt collector guy, but I figure if you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.
Oh coincidentially, the horrible debt collector guy is now in prison, it was in the local paper. He was a loan shark, pimp and human traffiker. Not the sort of person I would ever associate with, so I'm glad I didn't call him.
This is amazing. Obviously the customer and builder have not got a clue. I would'nt let them get away with it. This is what I would do. Make sure I have raised an invioce for the amount of cash recieved and put it through my books. Therefore all clear with the authorities. Let them take you to court and make sure you take along a copy of your water regs and Part H and G building regulations. Modern above ground soil and waste systems are not generaly constructed to with stand hydraulic pressure water test. Building inspectors happy with a few minutes on an air test.
T
tamz
A voice of reason
T
tamz
😱oops😱
D
dougs.cowan
Reg Man is spot on - put the invoice through your books because you can be sure the customer will raise it as a missing invoice and put it through his books anyway! But do sort out your Liability insurance! Well worth the money.
F
fuzzy
for sure not your fault! what a numpty testing it that way, his own foolishness caused this, not you. I always prefer to write when i have problems, when you speak directly i always either get frustrated and get myself mixed up or forget to mention importnt points. Id write it all down, state regs that support you can send it to them. Then record all corrospondance and take that info to court is it gets that far, good luck
This has happened to me I unblocked a sink which involved taking it off the wall 3 days later customer n a builder are demanding to know what i did on a job as there is a major leak when i left there were no leaks and they are demanding i pay for the builders bill what do i do as they are threatening me small claims
where did the leak come from / leak from what ?
In the elbow after thr bottle trap
glued elbow?????
No push fit 32mm waste
Not leaking when i left!!!!
did you turn it / move it and push fit is never the best once aged if moved,
why was the builder called and not you?
why was the builder called and not you?
Yes i had to remove it.....thats what am wondering why did she call a Builder and am i liable for what he does
She called him when she saw water coming through the ceiling is the story i got, she told him later in the day i had been there
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Thats the thing shes damanding money from me
D
Dotty
How did she get hold of you? Regular customer?
Why didn't she ask you to inspect and put right? Because she hasn't given you reasonable opportunity to go back and only contacted you after the fact you can tell her to do one.
Politely of course!
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