difficult customer

[iain]

i recently completed a first fix on a bathroom suite and soil and vent on a new extention. the customer seemed pleased and we were just waiting on the money when we received a phone call. the customer had tryed to do a water test on the stack by sealing it off and filling 6 meters of 110 and a 7 meter run of 40mm shower waste with water by repeatedly flushing the toilet on advice from his builder after the system had already been tested by myself at 38mm for 3 mins. the boss adaptor for the shower waste blew due to the high pressur and soaked the plaster and plasterboard below amounting to nearly £700 worth of damage. the customer is claiming it is because the components weren't fitted by myself properly and is refusing to pay what he owes me for parts and labour (nearly £1000). does he have a case and this should never of happened or is it as i think, that he has put far to much pressure into a system which is not designed to with stand it? basicly, do i suck it up or persue the issue?

 

[easyt]

I'm not a plumber but my first reaction would be 'more fool him' 7m of water is a lot of pressure on what is normally an open system. You are a plumber. what do you think? My response would be' pay up or I'll see you in court'.

 

[iain]

trouble is it was a cash job, with no liability insurence in a small town where reputation and word of mouth is everything. i have no legal standing at all. tempted to cut my losses, but it's kind of a matter of principle. it wasn't my fault. i'm sure of it.

 

[kay-jay]

you fitted and tested the pipework in accordance with standard industry procedures! he tested it in an unsuitable manner, therefore the culpability lies with him.

stick to your guns..because if you just cut your losses he would probably still ruin your reputation anyway.

 

[wnjswozo]

was it a on the side job,if not you really should have pli,if you give him a hard time he,s going to tip off tax man
i would turn his water off in street and pour some rapid set down it,after about a month has passed

 

[iain]

it was evenings and weekends for cash. are you saying leave it or it could get worse?

 

[iain]

what i really want to know is, could i be at fault?

 

[justlead1]

Hi There,s not such a thing as a cash job. The client carried out the test, coached by some one who can lay a brick upon another, who has tested a few manholes and drains. The client can claim the damage via household insurance. The testing method for soil and vent above ground drainage can be verified by a building control officer who will visit the site on request. These suggestions may create a rethink of the client and his builder and the due payment for yourself.

 

[Dannypipe]

God knows what he was thinking by testing it like that. what a fool.

You need to get paid. 10.2metres= 1Bar of pressure. So at 7M, he's pushing the waste system beyond it's limits. Explain that it is just designed to deal with water falling at gravity, vented and under no pressure.

Doesn't matter if you got paid cash, cheque, jewellery, bonds, whatever. You did work, and supplied materials. He has broken your work, and now he doesn't want to pay for his own mistake.

 

[moony]

hes trying to pull a fast one - id pursue the matter, and no your not to blame

 

[Twinhawk]

you shouldnt have to pay as your work shouldnt have created any build up of water to create that scenario, if you took on the cement for the boss it tells you how much pressure it should withstand, it the meter head of what he filled is more than the allowance on the fitting your golden, if not ............nightmare

 

[easyt]

I certainly would not let it drop. I remember 20 years ago I had just got a new motorbike and my foot had nearly healed 😉 following a car driver attempt to write me off as well as the previous machine. A chap owed a friend £300 and had moved house and 'done a runner'. He had lived in a village near Llandudno. I rode up there and talked to neighbours. knocked on a few doors etc. I found out that someone had seen his car in Colwyn bay a few times and that he owed the local garage and the butcher/grocery store (both of whom would like to know his whereabouts). So armed with the colour, make and model of his car I knocked on a dozen doors in Colwyn Bay and finally found someone who suggested a street to try. I saw a car that matched, spoke to people in a nearby house and found the guy. Foot in door, copy of the bill, and after he had gathered his composure he paid up. I passed his address on to the two other creditors and a week later got a £5 note from the guy at the garage who had collected his money.

Nil carborundum illegitimi 😉

 

[iain]

thanks guys. i'm leaning towards leaving it so as not to cause more problems. but at least i can sleep when i'm angry, i only struggle when i feel guilty... i might have a polite word with him though.

 

[Robtheplumb]

You have put the job thr your accounts, you must have done as you are talking about it on here, so....issue an invoice, You have tested your work and it passed, tell him he bust it so its not your fault and make him pay. The builder is the one who told him to do it wrong so make the builder pay.

 

[HoodedClaw]

Yep- however it is paid - or agreed to be paid, is irrelivant, just put it in the books - as it should be, issue an invoice and maybe a copy of the building regs on testing making it clear that is exactly what you followed. Don't let his mistake be yours - if you dont follow it up - your have 10 people not paying, knowing your not follow it up!

 

[tamz]

trouble is it was a cash job

This is your biggest problem. He could tell you to sing for it and you have absolutely no recourse apart from maybe the baseball bat or suchlike but you ain't getting paid. You will live and learn.

A water test is a legitimate test for below ground drainage.

 

[Avatar]

You have learnt a good lesson:

- always have insurance (otherwise you can come unstuck)
- always have a contract - especially on cash jobs, as they are the ones where the customer likes to withold payment, which is actually illiegal . . .

You might not be able to maintain your good reputation, because some people are arsholes!

Get in writing the regs on testing waste stacks - i bet it doest tell you to fill it up like that!
The customer and the builder are responsible for the mess, and they were stupid to do this themselves, without you at hand.

I think its called a small claims court for £1000 he doesnt have a leg to stand on really, as what he did was flood his own house, by testing the plumbing far far beyond its reasonable useage . . .

If you let this one go, then you send out a message to others that you are a soft touch in this respect - expect to be stung more frequently.

 

[Veggie Dave]

I think its called a small claims court

Everyone should have this in their bookmarks: https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

 

[Avatar]

i agree!

 

[markfxy]

even if you had pli I doubt wether they would pay out on this as the customer was clearly at fault you should issue an invoice put it through your books and if he doesnt pay go through small claims.

 

[REDSAW]

just a thought,
why dont you get in print the testing procedure for soil pipe from say building regs.
show it to the customer, then tell him to sue the builder under professional liability ie. crap advice.

 

[easyt]

Good point Redaw. The builder chap obviously 'has the customer's ear. The customer may have though that the way he tested the system was realistic. He may not be a total AH

 

[helpsy]

Everyone should have this in their bookmarks: https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

I used this service for someone who had some computer equipment off me.It was a complete nightmare to deal with them handing out more and more money in fees, and I personally would NEVER use them again.
Starting to get my money back now after 2 1/2 years of trying.

 

[Avatar]

the small claims court should suffice for £1000!

I fitted a tiolet siphon for a customer, and advised them that the over flow was broken and would discharge onto the floor of the bathroom. I came back to fit a new handle (which they supplied - alarm bells should ring at this point) and adjust the ball valve to accomadate the new siphon. Lo - the tiolet overflowed on the floor and into the kitchen ceiling!

The cusstomer wanted my insurance details, at which ppoint I told him to get lost as I was not at fault as I told him the overlfow needed fixing, and he didn't listen . . .

Now I spot these kind of people comeing a mile off - should have refused to work on the tiolet unless overflow was being fixed as well.

 

[Avatar]

You have to be cagey like a boxer to do plumbing:


- stick and move (get in, do the job, and get paid before the customer has a chance to get nasty)

- study your opponent (assess whether they are a liability to work for - are they going to pay you at the end of the job?)

 

[JonM]

You have to be cagey like a boxer to do plumbing:


- stick and move (get in, do the job, and get paid before the customer has a chance to get nasty)

- study your opponent (assess whether they are a liability to work for - are they going to pay you at the end of the job?)

Haha, I like that! I've had to turn down a few jobs recently because of a bad feeling about the customer. Some people you know are gonna try and stitch you up!

 

[iain]

The truth is the customer and his wife are really very nice people who, after many a balls up and while hemorraging money, have come to their wits end by the whole lenghty building process. the buck has to stop somewhere and it was easy for them to stop it with me rather than the builder who has created a number of problems for them, myself, the sparky ,the plasterers etc, but is still needed on site to complete the work. incidentely, i won the plumbing after the builder had given his own quote. I feel really bad for them, but i have a family to feed too, one i didn't get to see while spending weekends there, and the damage, the time taken and the goalposts moved throughout, all seem to lie at the feet of the builder. i'm not going to be his scapegoat.

 

[Phil]

Why were you only working on evenings and weekends Iain?

Are you a self employed plumber or do you work for someone during the week?

All I know is I wouldn't dare enter a customers house without public liability insurance.


What does for missus think of this?

 

[BLOD]

The customer has taken it upon himself (on the builders advice) to test something incorrectly, and between them they've caused substantial damage - My view is it's clearly not down to you & they've got a bloody cheek expecting you to pay.

I agree with what others have said, and would go the small claims court route.
I find most people pay up after they get a letter giving them 7 days to pay before a claim is submitted.

Don't give in & good luck
Blod

 

[anz]

I think that your customer probably knows that it his own fault, but is trying it on.
We all know that it is not your fault, so there is no reason why you shouldn't be paid. Show them proof that you tested it according to reg's.
You need to pursue the customer for your money, eventually they will give in and perhaps then try and blame it on the builder or someone else, who cares you'll have had your money by then.

 

[mooreofdevizes]

Even if he is paying cash issue him with an invoice stating it is to be paid within 7 days if he doesn't pay within the time period stated issue him with a reminder letter then a formal demand letter. The letters usually work as they have been written by solicitors you just fill in the blanks. If no response from the letters take him to the small claims court it only costs £100 and you can do it online.
I would get a copy of the test procedure for soil pipes as you will need it if it gets to court.
If you want a copy of the legal letter let me know and I will email it to you.
Times are hard enough without getting ripped off by dodgy customers.

 

[Puddle]

Am I missing something here, he filled through flushing w/c ,presume shower on same floor as shower or if below did they cut and cap off, if shower on same floor pressure not that great on joint or amount of fresh water that came out of joint, if it gave way, were did they get £ 700 worth of damage from, have they not let you inspect job
Nice people ? all sounds strange to me
On cash in hand job as you have not received ought, it is'nt yet so nobody can say you were not going to declare it, which of course you were,as said issue a invoice tommorrow
Do not sit back and take this business is business and as you say you have a family to keep, it will cause more damage to your street cred in a small community sitting back and accepting this than it will by kicking up a fuss and protesting your innocence ,if the builder is a pain and messes tradesmen and customers off, you may be surprised by the support you find

 

[plumbandplumber]

When I was at college, many moons ago, my lecturer impressed on us never to be tempted to test a stack by filling with water. This can result in a lot of weight hanging off the side of a building. Only a few clips to support it all! The regulations state only using a manometer.

Don't let the 'cash job' angle cloud the issue. Just because your customer intended handing over readies, doesn't mean he knows or had proof that the readies were going straight into your pocket. He owes you the money. Issue an invoice if you want.

Get a building control officer along for a site meeting. This will show the builder up for the idiot that he is, and mean that the customer has no excuses for witholding payment.

 

[tamz]

Here is my take on this .......i may be wrong as i am just interpreting what has been said.

Iain is doing this work at the weekends as a homer/ foreigner /sidey whatever you want to call it. On work of this sort if they don't/won't pay there is not much can be done other than a bit violence. It still won't get you paid but at least you feel a bit better.
He air tested the pipework which seemed fine then bawbag the builder decides to give it a water test.
Now a water test is a legitimate test for below ground drainage and can be done internal but the pipework needs to be supported mainly for the weight.
Anyone who has done new build will have flooded the drains at some point to find a leak. An upstairs boss, if it was fitted correctly, would have held no problem as there is little pressure on it.
However. The builder had no right to do this test, especially when you were not present so you cannot be held liable for something you did not cause. Also as the build was at first fix stage who was to say it was ready to test other than you. Make this point strongly to the customer and pass the blame back to the builder. The damaged ceiling could probably be fixed for under £100.
If you are thinking violence start with the builder and make his life a misery for the next year or so until you feel you get your moneys worth.
Otherwise put it down to experience and don't get involved with builders. They are generally......... well i better not say anymore😡

😱

😛😉

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

its simple if he does not pay have his testicles removed