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C

craigskelly

I would appreciate some help on pipe routing/size for heating to be installed within a new two storey extension I am building.
The existing heating system has 28mm pipe from the boiler but this changes to 22mm somewhere on the way to the pump. The pump feeds out in 22mm but I believe this is a short run in this size as from what I have been able to see so far, most pipe appears to be 15mm (will investigate further). The pump feeds all radiators from the 1st floor via a 1st floor loop and a series of drops. I have attached a drawing that shows both the original and new radiators. Point 7 on my drawing shows where the new radiators start (all new rads are to the right of 7) with points 1-7 being a ground floor loop and the other 1st floor radiators teeing off as shown. I have run new 15mm pipe to all new rads and originally intended to run these by connecting into the end of the original 1st floor pipe run (15mm) with the ground floor loop teeing off as a 15mm drop. I have actually already made the connection and can get heat to the furthest radiator but then commonsense prevailed and I realised that I am trying to run too many rads off of a 15mm feed. So, the situation is that radiators 5 and 6 are fed from 15mm pipe which is now under a wooden floor so can't be changed. However, I do have the opportunity to change the other pipe runs if necessary. I have now done some pipe sizing calcs and am thinking of running a new 22mm feed (although this is borderline so should I use 28mm pipe or is that not a good idea going from 22 to 28mm?) from the pump to point 7 i.e. leave the existing pipe run as is is without any additions. Also, rather than using a 15mm T to "drop" feed the ground floor rads from point 7, would I be better to T off in 22mm and then feed the loop from the other direction i.e. run in 22mm to rads 1-4 before the final runs to rads 5 and 6 which as I said are in 15mm.
There is a single thermostat on the ground floor and I intend installing a second unit in the new bedroom and possibly a third on the ground floor in the living room - is this recommended and do I need to install any valves in my design (there is already one for the hot water).
Finally, when sizing the pump, I am correct that I just need to work out the head required from the index circuit and not the total pipe run aren't I? The index circuit equates to the pipe run for the new rads and using 22mm pipe to point 7 equates to a head of about 0.9m although obviously if I change the design as described above I will need to re-do the calcs.
Thanks in advance for your help/guidance

rads2.jpg
 

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Graig,

There is not enough information on that drawing for us to work out anything for you, no pipe sizes or radiator outputs, where is the boiler in all that, pray tell us what you think the system heating load is (all the rads add together) tell us what you have calculated the index circuit delta P to be and the required pump flow rate at that delta P. maybe we can help with some more info.

Tony
 
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There is not enough information on that drawing for us to work out anything for you, no pipe sizes or radiator outputs, where is the boiler in all that, pray tell us what you think the system heating load is (all the rads add together) tell us what you have calculated the index circuit delta P to be and the required pump flow rate at that delta P. maybe we can help with some more info.

Tony
Ok thanks - I will sanitise the drawing and show the pipe sizes /radiator outputs etc. and will repost. .
hammers4spanner / lame plumber I will be ok to install myself (not an expert but done a fair bit of plumbing including new rads (on a much smaller scale)) once I get the design right - that is where I need the help/guidance if possible. Thanks Craig
 
welcome to the forum 🙂

most of the jobs" I will be ok to install my self " end up coming back with " how do I sort this out "

please keep us informed of the progress of the job

thanks
 
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I think we have entered the zone where we wrestle with the forum's function..........again :yesnod:
 
There is a good document you might want to go and find on the web which will show you how to design and pipe size, anyone can understand it
by the Copper Development Association its called "Copper Tubes in Domestic Heating Systems" 8 pages long you will be pipe sizing and pump
sizing by the time you have read through it.
 
View attachment 15386View attachment 15385
I've cleaned up my calculation sheet and rationalised my design. I believe that by running a new 22mm section (feed derived from a T at the pump) then I will be ok to feed all bar one of my new radiators - the remaining radiator would be connected to the existing pipework in place of a radiator previously removed. I believe that I have correctly identified the Index Circuit and worked out the pump size but am not 100% convinced on this - have I got it right? One concern I have is that as mentioned previously, the 28mm feed from the boiler drops to 22mm before it reaches the pump and the feed from the pump is also 22mm - not sure where at the moment until I get the floor up but I believe it is a max of around 3-4m away from the pump - 22mm looks to be just undersized - for a short run is that necessarily an issue?
Also previously mentioned, I am looking at installing two additional thermostats in the extension (living room and master bedroom. On a system of this size, apart from the hot water valve (not shown), would it be a good idea to add additional valves working in conjunction with the thermostats?
Is there enough information now?
Thanks in advance for any advice/help. Craig
 

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I am more confused now, where is "P" on the drawing and rads 2,3,4,5,6 are they all on 15mm I think your index circuit is from "L" that's the boiler to rad 6, all those rads are 1.8Kws
I take it, BTW the index circuit is not always the longest run. Are your drawing pipe lenghts F & R. You need to watch that run to the last rad 7.5 mtres, you don't show on the
drawing what size pipe is 2 to 6 looks like 15mm from the table, that will not do the water in that leg will be doing around 3 m/s it will be a pig to
balance. Have you looked at the pump size you need using your calcs 0.7ls @ 6.3m this is not in the domestic range. Tell me what pump you would choose
using your calcs from the Grundfos range ??? What's with only two radiator sizes in the property ???

Tony
 
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Tony, sorry, in my last post I didn't repeat all the points I made initially - should have done for clarity. Rads 2-6 (and 7-11) are on new 15mm pipe runs but have not yet been fitted - I installed these pipes before waking up and realising that I needed to undertake some calculations!. I have the chance to change the runs to all new rads except 5 and 6 - runs to these are under a wooden floor which I needed to get down quickly. It is difficult to explain in words how I can change the routing but for instance I could split rads 5 and 6 and run them off of a T close to point E (the extension is L shaped and almost loops back on itself) - these two would then be on their own dedicated drop. For the calcs as they stand at the moment, I think a Magna 25-60 would suffice. The more I look into this the more I think that I may need to raise the white flag and pay someone to take a physical look to advise - don't like this approach as I like to try and work through problems myself (with a little expert guidance along the way of course)!!!!
 
Craig,

That one hell of a pump, the lights will dip when you turn it on, :50:I have PM my phone number, call me, the Magna 25-60 would only just suffice, its on the limits
BTW I think your clacs look pretty good, most plumbers use the pump size they have always used,they wouldn't go to the lengths you did, this is an odd ball job you are doing, much more complex and you are right to
wonder if you have got the pump size right

Tony
 
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Howsie,

Surely not true for you, but sometimes the norm, over the years I have changed more pumps than I care to mention undersized, maybe things are changing
I don't know about, it was a reply I was expecting, maybe not so early on Saturday hey.

Thanks anyway Howise I am glad to know people care, wonder how many people would go to this length, because this guy who is not in the trade looks like
he is spot on with his calcs and he doesn't need our help at all. This pump will be around £450.00 plus vat

He has spotted that original system pressure drop is already high and that to add extra radiators will increase the pressure drop and mass flow rates further, he has done an
first class job of the spreadsheet and most would be shocked at the pump size required, I think he is too, he won't find one at B&Q and I think Screwfix won't have it over the counter.

We can all learn, perhaps I should have used to word "a lot of plumbers " and not most, see if anyone else has worked out the delta p and flow rate and agrees on the pump size.


Regards

Tony
 
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If you want more control
Why not put al the new rads your doing on a manifold with actuators and wireless stats for the rooms far better and just use pipe in pipe
 
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If you want more control
Why not put al the new rads your doing on a manifold with actuators and wireless stats for the rooms far better and just use pipe in pipe

I do this when possible, prefer to make own manifold and use two ports tho. Last one I did had 16 two ports on first floor and 3 on ground plus ufh on gf. All DCW and DHW ran back to service riser every appliance had its own ISo in riser. Bloke was chief engineer for shipping company so engineering mad with huge wallet
 
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I do this when possible, prefer to make own manifold and use two ports tho. Last one I did had 16 two ports on first floor and 3 on ground plus ufh on gf. All DCW and DHW ran back to service riser every appliance had its own ISo in riser. Bloke was chief engineer for shipping company so engineering mad with huge wallet

Lol depends on wallet the way we all do it I think
 
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I hadn't thought about using a manifold/activators but I like the idea in theory at least. The only thing is that the pump and new radiators are at other ends of the house so unless I run separate runs to the new upstairs and downstairs sections (which I could do I guess) then I wouldn't be able to separate the flows properly unless I guess the activator went somewhere at the beginning of the new extension i.e. single new pipe run part of the way which then split between upstairs and downstairs sections. I assume flow can be better controlled/balanced using a manifold rather than trying to T off of an existing run. Time to re-visit my calculation sheet again I think.
 
Check part l. As if your over allowance 70m2 it's got to be zoned in any case!!

Ermi,

He needs to get the right amount of water into each radiator at the right temperature before he starts to control radiators and circuits, he thinks he
needs a pump 0.7kg/s @ 6.3m head, will this do for him, he's done the calcs, is he right with that pump, at the moment I think that's all that he's worried about.

Tony
 
The current energy conservation level for domestic dwellings like all government intervention are feeble and entry level (zone valves). With a system this big you need to go much further or you will need deep
pockets to run a system like this, if this chap can work out the index circuit on this system, he will know how to control it when he's ready too.


This Government and previous ones have never had a proper energy policy, that's why they are talking about the lights going out this winter, lets just wait and see.

Please don't talk about Part L and making dwelling more efficient, when we still have a host of coal fired power stations running at 30% efficiency, its a joke, what you all do to keep Part L happy is a joke too and then there is the cost, tell the custard that it will cost an extra £250 for a proper control system room by room (not TRV please) and they go all cold on you, no just fit the standard two zone valves, Europe do much better. We are pretty far behind guys, never mind there is still shale gas, its the FUTURE!!!
 
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Ermi,

He needs to get the right amount of water into each radiator at the right temperature before he starts to control radiators and circuits, he thinks he
needs a pump 0.7kg/s @ 6.3m head, will this do for him, he's done the calcs, is he right with that pump, at the moment I think that's all that he's worried about.

Tony

Too late to be bothered with the sums but a quick look tells me a bundle of 3/4 would solve a lot of problems.
There is always a way.
 
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For people who are pipe sizing this is how I would approach it:

15mm will carry 0.141kgs this will feed a rad or a number of rads with a maxium output of 6kws
22mm will carry 0.311kgs this will feed a rad or a number of rads with a maxium output of 13kws
28mm will carry 0.519kgs this will feed a rad or a number of rads with a maxium output of 21kws
35mm will carry 1.190kgs this will feed a rad or a number of rads with a maxium output of 49kws

These figures are based on water flow in all pipe sizes of 1 m/s, if people attempting to design
stick to these figures they will not go far wrong.

Extending an existing system brings its problems, you are not certain the first person got it right
and you should lift some FB if you can and do some investigating, if you an expert plumber you should be
able to sniff it out without lifting the board, if you see some 15mm and 10mm mixed to radiators lift the boards

A simple way to pipe size would be standard pressure drop, that way you only need to measure the full lenght of the
index run and x by the pressure drop per mtre plus the boiler drop etc.
 
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