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View the thread, titled "Fire Valve requirement" which is posted in UK Plumbers Forums on UK Plumbers Forums.
I could be wrong but I thought all appliances should be fitted with a remote firevalve? HRM boilers are usually the only kind of exception as usually the burner is higher than the tank. I tend to remove all wheelhead valves and replace for remote type, even if I can't fit it outside, they're better than the leaky naff wheelhead.
As far as I can make out, its only if the tank is being moved or a new boiler is being installed that the remote has to be fitted to an existing installation that is 2002 or older and then only if the boiler is inside the building, a bit confusing if the boiler is outside so possibly best to fit one anyway, can't be wrong that way.
As far as I know it always has to have a remote firevalve to outside, on outside and on indoor boilers.
An existing boiler just being serviced or repaired also requires a remote firevalve, but if the customer refuses to pay for one, then you just tick the box to say no remote valve and also note it (with, remote firevalve recommended).
The wheelhead firevalve can be left connected as long as a remote firevalve is installed.
An existing boiler just being serviced or repaired also requires a remote firevalve, but if the customer refuses to pay for one, then you just tick the box to say no remote valve and also note it (with, remote firevalve recommended).
The wheelhead firevalve can be left connected as long as a remote firevalve is installed.
A bit more research on Fire Valves:
Means of automatic isolation
5.6 A way of meeting the requirement would be to install fuel pipework which is resistant to the effects of fire and to fit a proprietary fire valve system in accordance with the relevant recommendations in BS5410-1:1997 Sections 8.2 and 8.3.
Unfortunately 8.2 & 8.3 only concern themselves with the support for steel and plastic tanks, however Clause 9.0 Liquid fuel system from storage tank to burner Sub clause:
9.3 Fire valve types and installation
9.3.1 A fire valve system should be fitted so as to cut off the supply of liquid fuel remotely from the heating appliance in the event of an accidental fire occurring in or around the appliance.
Each fire valve should be tested by the installer in accordance with OFTEC Technical Book 2 [N7] or Technical Book 5 [N8], as applicable, before fitting to check correct operation.
For appliances installed inside buildings, the liquid fuel supply should be shut off externally to the building.
For existing liquid fuel supply pipework installations where liquid fuel lines serving internally installed heating appliances are run so as to be built into the structure, the cut off point should be at the point where the line is first exposed internally. This type of layout should not be used for new liquid fuel supply pipework installations.
9.3.2 For externally located heating appliances, the liquid fuel supply should be cut off externally to the appliance casing. The appliance manufacturer's instructions should be complied with.
All interesting stuff, well I find it interesting.
- Building Regulation approved document J 2002
- Section 5
Means of automatic isolation
5.6 A way of meeting the requirement would be to install fuel pipework which is resistant to the effects of fire and to fit a proprietary fire valve system in accordance with the relevant recommendations in BS5410-1:1997 Sections 8.2 and 8.3.
Unfortunately 8.2 & 8.3 only concern themselves with the support for steel and plastic tanks, however Clause 9.0 Liquid fuel system from storage tank to burner Sub clause:
9.3 Fire valve types and installation
9.3.1 A fire valve system should be fitted so as to cut off the supply of liquid fuel remotely from the heating appliance in the event of an accidental fire occurring in or around the appliance.
Each fire valve should be tested by the installer in accordance with OFTEC Technical Book 2 [N7] or Technical Book 5 [N8], as applicable, before fitting to check correct operation.
For appliances installed inside buildings, the liquid fuel supply should be shut off externally to the building.
For existing liquid fuel supply pipework installations where liquid fuel lines serving internally installed heating appliances are run so as to be built into the structure, the cut off point should be at the point where the line is first exposed internally. This type of layout should not be used for new liquid fuel supply pipework installations.
9.3.2 For externally located heating appliances, the liquid fuel supply should be cut off externally to the appliance casing. The appliance manufacturer's instructions should be complied with.
All interesting stuff, well I find it interesting.
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Compulsory Remote Acting Fire Valves (KBB Type) have been in as long as I can remember.
The previous BS5410 1997 included them.
The valve body should be external to the building or if fitting retrospectively, as close as possible to where the Oil line emerges from the building fabric. Finally ALL external boilers installations should include one (1 metre away from appliance).
Upon servicing or repair of the appliance you should record (CD11)and make the responsible person aware of the need for said valve.
The previous BS5410 1997 included them.
The valve body should be external to the building or if fitting retrospectively, as close as possible to where the Oil line emerges from the building fabric. Finally ALL external boilers installations should include one (1 metre away from appliance).
Upon servicing or repair of the appliance you should record (CD11)and make the responsible person aware of the need for said valve.
BS5410 does not specify any longitudinal dimension for the position of the fire valve, except height, unless I'v missed it and you can point it out?
9.3.9 Where the sensitive element is positioned external to the appliance it should be located at a maximum height of 500 mm above the top of the burner.
9.3.9 Where the sensitive element is positioned external to the appliance it should be located at a maximum height of 500 mm above the top of the burner.
That only refers to the sensor of the remote firevalve. (Usually I clip it to boiler above the burner, often clip is supplied to new boilers though).
The actual body of the firevalve is to be fitted a metre at least away from an outdoor boiler (outdoor module or one in a built boiler house).
With an oil boiler fitted inside a house or garage, the firevalve body just needs to be on outer wall and can be literally just directly outside
Oftec regs, which ultimately then are building regs.
Best, don't want to start an argument, but the Building Regulations Part J are UK Government legislation approved by the Secretary of State, OFTEC recommendations are not, however in Part J under "What is an approved Document" there is a paragraph which says:
"There is therefore no obligation to adopt any particular solution contained in this Approved Document if you would prefer to meet the relevant requirement in some other way. However, persons intending to carry out building work should always check with their Building Control Body, either the local authority or an approved inspector, that their proposals comply with building regulations."
Without an approved Government "Code of Practice" I assume industry guidance would be acceptable, but this is a decision that would have to be made by a Judge/Queens Council in a case requiring this decision to be made.
It would seem that as in most work place legislation if a COP is not available a self appointed body has become the voice of the industry and what they have published has become the work standard adopted/accepted.
"There is therefore no obligation to adopt any particular solution contained in this Approved Document if you would prefer to meet the relevant requirement in some other way. However, persons intending to carry out building work should always check with their Building Control Body, either the local authority or an approved inspector, that their proposals comply with building regulations."
Without an approved Government "Code of Practice" I assume industry guidance would be acceptable, but this is a decision that would have to be made by a Judge/Queens Council in a case requiring this decision to be made.
It would seem that as in most work place legislation if a COP is not available a self appointed body has become the voice of the industry and what they have published has become the work standard adopted/accepted.
I think we’re answered the original poster’s question: Remote fire valves have been a ‘requirement’ for some time.
The posts relating to weather or not it is a legal requirement, have been debated for ages. Most notable between HRM and OFTEC.
I would guess in a court case, a professional witness would argue that OFTEC are the official
governing body for the industry.
However, a discussion/argument for another time and place.
The posts relating to weather or not it is a legal requirement, have been debated for ages. Most notable between HRM and OFTEC.
I would guess in a court case, a professional witness would argue that OFTEC are the official
governing body for the industry.
However, a discussion/argument for another time and place.
I am not really fully arguing with you tbh.
Wish I didn’t have to fit a remote firevalve a metre away from an outside boiler because it can be a vulnerable position and not easy to do sometimes on replacement boiler jobs.
I believe building authorities adopted oftec rules and I guess visa versa.
The boiler manufacturers instructions would also be part of building control regs.
Basically it is law to have a remote firevalve fitted to new boilers installed in recent years, but not compulsory for a customer who has an old boiler to have a firevalve.
But the service engineer at a service or a heating engineer working on the boiler flue, for example, would be liable should a fire later occur and the oil line contribute to the fire, unless the incorrect firevalve was notified to the customer.
The customers home insurance also would be keen to pass blame to incorrect servicing.
Fire services after a house fire check for cause of fire and anything that had contributed to it. They will find out the oil hose had burnt through and greatly fuelled the fire without any proper isolation. Their report could be damning to last man at boiler.
But the service engineer at a service or a heating engineer working on the boiler flue, for example, would be liable should a fire later occur and the oil line contribute to the fire, unless the incorrect firevalve was notified to the customer.
The customers home insurance also would be keen to pass blame to incorrect servicing.
Fire services after a house fire check for cause of fire and anything that had contributed to it. They will find out the oil hose had burnt through and greatly fuelled the fire without any proper isolation. Their report could be damning to last man at boiler.
It's an unfortunate fact that some/most Building Control Offices and HSE inspectors do not fully understand what the regulations where meant to achieve, but take them as a verbatim fact, I often challenged the decisions/statements of both in court.
Any published external documentation to the regulations will only be taken into account if the regulations are ambiguous or unclear, or the proposed work ethic/practice is a better procedure than in the regulations.
We have digressed a long way from my original post, although its been interesting and I would love to carry on the discussion I think we ought to leave it here.
Regards
Any published external documentation to the regulations will only be taken into account if the regulations are ambiguous or unclear, or the proposed work ethic/practice is a better procedure than in the regulations.
We have digressed a long way from my original post, although its been interesting and I would love to carry on the discussion I think we ought to leave it here.
Regards
All very true, but IMO a distance of 1M is not going to stop a fire serious enough to involve loss adjusters, from overtaking a fire valve and allowing the tank contents to empty.
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I assume the reason of the 1m minimum rule for firevalve on an outdoor module boiler is if in the very unlikely event of a fire starting inside the boiler area, the firevalve body would be more vulnerable to the fire if closer than 1m.
Whereas if boiler was inside a garage or house, the firevalve body would be less vulnerable to a boiler fire even if just directly on other side of a single brick garage wall.
But common sense would say that there could be a door close by which would mean the fire could quickly reach the firevalve outside, yet this would still be acceptable to regs.
Personally I do not like the 1m distance.
We have to tick all the boxes to avoid a nightmare customer taking us to court to claim damages just because we had not followed strickly to building regs.
As you say, some building inspectors do not understand the regs.
One example is they do not understand the discharge pipe termination regulations of unvented cylinders.
It has become more about passing the responsibility to the installer by requiring installer certification
How would you best deal with both an old boiler and steel oil tank in the garage. Boiler front is literally 1.5 mtrs from the tank. To improve situation I have installed a remote acting fire valve between boiler and tank. Outside wall is the boundary? I suggested when tank changed to install the fire valve outside, but client is wanting to put a Tuffa 60min fire rated tank back in the garage. ? Where do you put the fire valve?
Firstly, I would condemn the install as it presently is, just to keep myself right. So I would do as you and fit an internal firevalve as a minimum if customer agrees plus do the paperwork showing all the faults.
Probably best the remote firevalve is fitted on outside wall, even though it means looping out and back through wall.
No outdoor space for an oil tank?
What if outside wall is the boundry, which would mean you cant loop fire valve outside on someone elses property.
I have failed tank as not compliant and insufficient fire protection. They could find a place outside, but have been told by oil supplier too far from drive. (plus 50mtrs?).
Tuff say they do a fire rated tank that can be installed in garage. I don't install tanks so advised he seek suggestions from tank installer.
No outside walls to their own property? Not a lot you can do then I guess. Would be interesting to know what OFTEC or building control would recommend.
Oil suppliers my area I think do have capability to supply to oil tanks 100metres fill hose, although most I have seen would need much less distance
Its the garage, front is open doors, one side is a lounge wall other two walls is neighbours garden.
Oil hose distance must be a max Terms & Con. as checked local suppliers sites and say 150feet (45mtrs) although they have delivered to me and my tanks 57mtrs from road.
Ill phone oftec and see what they suggest with the fire valve.
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