Have I been overcharged?

[NicolasR]

Hey there, had some unfortunate problems with a local plumber.

We needed a new oil tank fitting, and as my partners father is a builder, he recommended us a plumber and sourced us a tank, cement for new base, and any other parts that were needed to install said tank.

The plumber came on day 1, and helped make the base while coming to diagnose a separate plumbing problem.
He spent around 4 hours working in the morning, dithered about my house for around an hour talking to himself while refusing to go in the loft as the problem 'wasn't up there' (despite it being an overflow leak, which turns out is from the hot water tank in the loft, as found by another plumber), took around an hour lunch, and went home.

Day 2, he came back to connect the oil tank up after lifting it onto the base and filling it with the oil from our old tank. He spent around 2-3 hours on this, at which point the boiler wasn't heating up properly. He spent a further 3 hours 'trying to work out' what the problem was, constantly changing his mind and talking to himself about what it could possibly be, going off to get a replacement part (that wasn't the problem), and generally not doing much. He probably took around an hour and a half to get the part + have lunch.

Day 3 he's decided he can't fix the problem, as it's a tiger loop failure (no idea what this is sadly, not a plumber), and gets in a boiler engineer to fix it. However, he decides to come along and supervise the boiler chap (I have no idea as to if this is a 1 or 2 man job) for around 3 hours.

At the end of the work, I advise him I'm not happy, and I'm not willing to pay him for all the time spent. He was very apologetic and said he wouldn't be charging full hours as he knows he'd spent too long, etc etc.

Got the bill through, and he's charged 12 hours labour, deducting 2.5 hours.

Also got charged 3 hours labour and parts from the boiler chap.

Is this a reasonable amount of time to spend doing the work (am I being irrational), or is the chap just looking for an easy pay day?

Sadly I have no quote from before the job was taken, as my partners father dealt with hiring him, and he informed us to install the new tank would cost 'no more than £400 total worst case'. Thus far it's cost around £900 with the father in law undercharging due to 'family rates', the boiler chap, and the plumber.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, if there's anything I can do, if I'm being unreasonable, etc etc.

Cheers!

 

[jtsplumbing]

I don't do Oil, but the £900 for 12 hrs.. seems high (£75 per hr.) did you not get a rate of him B4 he started, average day rate for a plumber £150 /£200 oil guy may charge a little more, one of the oil chaps on here would know .

 

[WHPES]

IMPORTANT - Fitting an oil tank and fuel line is subject to Building Control so DO NOT hand over any cash until you get a green CD11 certificate from the plumber and an Installation Certificate from your Local Authority! Certification is a legal requirement under the Building Regulations and also without both certificates, any guarantee from the tank manufacturer or household insurance cover should there be a leak, fire or other incident is invalid!

Sounds like a non-oil plumber trying to be an oil engineer. 12 hours seems a bit excessive for putting in an oil tank especially that he did not have put in the concrete base all by himself.

I usually allow 4 to 6 hours for hooking up a tank (including sourcing it but not including laying the pipeline or making the concrete base). However all situations are different. You shouldn't really be charged for him messing around with the Tigerloop problem if he really didn't know what he was doing and he should have got the oil guy in at that point if that was the case, and I can't see why he hung around watching the oil guy either and he certainly shouldn't charge you for hanging around doing nothing.

Ask for a breakdown of the bill.

 

[SimonG]

First of all is the bloke oftec registered, as you are supposed to be to install an oil tank, or have you raised and paid for a building control notification who will inspect and register the installation.

I did a tank yesterday. On site at 8.00, away for 14.00, drained out 350 litres of oil, removed old tank and cut it up for disposal, sited new tank on existing base, 350 litres back in, changed fire valve and bled oil line. Cust got change from 300 plus cost of tank.

However as you didnt get a price up front then you dont really have a leg to stand on.

Normally you only get monkeys when you pay peanuts, but your monkey wants gold plated nuts.

 

[WHPES]

Check the following:

Is the tank at least 1.8m from any flue, window or doorway (by the most direct route) or non-fire rated structure (garden shed etc) (applies to both yours and your neighbour's property)?

Does the concrete plinth extend at least 300mm around all sides of the tank beyond the tank base?

Is the tank at least 750mm from the neighbour's boundary if not fire rated (fire rated is a brick or stone structure without timber eaves etc in which case 100mm)?

Are the joints assembled using pipe stiffeners in the cut ends (a common fault of non-OFTEC people to miss them off) or flared fittings?

Has the pipe been laid in a trench at least 450mm deep and covered with sand, with a warning tape over the top if buried in the ground?

Is the fuel tank outlet filter accesible (could you change the element easily)?

Is the tank a double skinned (bunded) tank?

There are other legal requirements as well as these but these are the main ones. If your tank does not meet any of these, and / or has no certification, there is a good chance that it is an illegal installation.

 

[Ray Stafford]

On my reading of the OP, the £900 included 3hrs of the "boiler man" time plus whatever the Father in Law charged at "family rates" for his part in it.

So assuming the boiler man charged £50 + VAT per hour (by no means unreasonable) x 3 hours that would be £180. And if father in law charged a couple of hundred quid, that would leave £520 or approx £36 plus VAT per hour. Which seems very reasonable indeed.

Its also not clear whether the £400 estimate came from the plumber being complained about, or from the father in law.

I always worry about these "have I been overcharged" threads. Would love to hear the other side of the story.

 

[WHPES]

Just to clarify after Ray, what has the plumber actually charged you as his part of the work? Is the £900 just his bill? We are all assuming that it is.

However, even if what Ray says is actually the case, Although the rates Ray suggests are reasonable, I think the number of hours charged for seem excessive for amount of time one would expect the task to take.

 

[Centralheatking]

Hi Ray - I agree both sides are vital in most of these posts

When are you lot coming up here to the North West ?

centralheatking - we survived April 1 2014

 

[Ray Stafford]

we survived April 1 2014

I kept a very low profile at an undisclosed location. 🙂

 

[Ray Stafford]

JI think the number of hours charged for seem excessive for amount of time one would expect the task to take.

True. And thats the part where hearing the other side of the story would be helpful. There is a reference to "another plumbing problem" - a leak from an overflow which was solved by a different plumber, which makes me wonder if its all a bit more complicated that we are hearing.

Could just be me being a cynical old git. 🙂

 

[WHPES]

More info required...........

 

[AWheating]

why not ask your partners dad if its too much?

cant see how we can help other than give advise about any installation issue. What do you think is reasonable? some people take there bmw to a bmw garage and are happy to pay £120 an hour labour, some people take there bmw to a small garage and pay £35 an hour. We all have different ideas about these things.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

Why didn't you get a quote first? Did you ask his rate?

If not, why?

This is what happens.

You needed something fixed and this guy was recommended.

IMO, you should have at least asked some questions like you are now but a bit late.

Live & learn,

 

[WHPES]

Whether you have been overcharged or not, you still need the CD11 and LABC Installation Certificate.

Don't hand over any money until you get them!

 

[SimonG]

why not ask your partners dad if its too much?

cant see how we can help other than give advise about any installation issue. What do you think is reasonable? some people take there bmw to a bmw garage and are happy to pay £120 an hour labour, some people take there bmw to a small garage and pay £35 an hour. We all have different ideas about these things.

Wheres this garage that only charges £35 an hour 🙂

 

[jtsplumbing]

Wheres this garage that only charges £35 an hour 🙂

Quite a few in the West Country ! you'll have to bring your BMW down here for its service

 

[Rickster123]

Wheres this garage that only charges £35 an hour 🙂

In the West Midlands!... It's not worth the risk Simon!

 

[SimonG]

In the West Midlands!... It's not worth the risk Simon!

Last one I used it was £75 an hour.

 

[Rickster123]

Last one I used it was £75 an hour.

What was her name??

 

[jtsplumbing]

Last one I used it was £75 an hour.

Did you manage to last for the hr. ? or was It £75 per hr. or part of