Help Pricing A Job

[rodders]

Hi,

I've got to quote a full install job (labour only). I'm in the west midlands the job needs a new 13 meter 28mm gas run and 6.8 meter 15mm run to a fire (fire not yet installed so will be capping it off where fire will be. It's a combi boiler either a 28kw Vaillant or Worcester 30kw Si. I will have to remove cylinder and tanks etc but will be allowed to keep scrap (customer asked to take this off price for job). 8 Rads to fit, 1 drop in hallway to under suspended floor and to feed all downstairs rads. Will need to brick up around flue as currently got balanced flue and boiler going in the same place as last one. Condense to go to drain very close to boiler but need to go through internal brick wall.

I've already spend 4 hours properly sizing the gas pipe up and all 8 radiators (I made a plan while on site).

To make matters worse the guy has had a quote already (not sure what he got quoted), he's a friend of a friend and wants it cheap!

Whats a reasonable amount for labour only? Customer will supplier boiler/rads and materials I pick up will be paid for by the customers (pipe, fittings, clips etc)

This is my first big job since setting myself up!

Thanks

 

[SimonG]

To be honest it sounds like your flogging a dead horse. Too many alarm bells for me 'scrap off price', supplying own materials, wants it cheap (prefer to hear I'm looking for a good job).

Give him phone number of nearest zoo and tell him he can get a couple of monkeys for a bag of peanuts.

Seriously though, I don't think you'll get it at the price you want.

 

[rodders]

To be honest it sounds like your flogging a dead horse. Too many alarm bells for me 'scrap off price', supplying own materials, wants it cheap (prefer to hear I'm looking for a good job).

Give him phone number of nearest zoo and tell him he can get a couple of monkeys for a bag of peanuts.

Seriously though, I don't think you'll get it at the price you want.

Cheers for the reply,

I'm going to quote and see what happens, what kind of price are we talking for labour only?

 

[SimonG]

Without seeing it's difficult. But to try and not state the obvious I'd be taking your daily rate x estimated days plus a bit (£200). I'd also be nailing down the t & c 's around materials supplied by customer i.e. If no materials available and can't get on it will be ££/hr standing time. If materials are incorrect or not to standard it will be ££/hr whilst waiting for you to replace etc etc.

......and I wouldn't be knocking the price of the scrap off, I'd be leaving it about two foot away from where I took it out. I did an oil combi changeover and the woman come with 'We are keeping the scrap'. The cylinder and pipe where left pretty much where they came out. At the end of the job she asked if I would take it all outside. I refused stating my insurance didn't cover the moving of customers property. Bloody white fluffy stair carpet...so say no more.

 

[BLOD]

I hate working for friends, or even friends of friends it always turns into to a nightmare.
and it sounds like this guy is trying to cover every angle, so you'd be hard pushed to make any money.

I'd just ask him how much he's already been quoted before wasting to much more time.

 

[chris watkins]

I hate working for friends, or even friends of friends it always turns into to a nightmare.
and it sounds like this guy is trying to cover every angle, so you'd be hard pushed to make any money.

I'd just ask him how much he's already been quoted before wasting to much more time.

Its a good tactic that Blod & if they won't tell, we use "well a budget cost / estimate would be ..........K if you are interested we will give you a fixed quotation. Can't keep wasting time quoting every job for custards with unrealistic expectations about the costs of thing they know nothing about!!!!!
The standard response to cheap job ! is "we don't do cheap, we do proper job" of course you then have to do proper job. LOL

 

[rodders]

What would you guys charge?

 

[Leo21]

Personally I wouldn't quote, the guys trying to pull a fast one. Don't take the price of the scrap off. Leave it for him or charge labour to go and weigh it in. You could call some local guys for rough quote on the same job. Act like a customer of course. Deduct the the materials and you've got a rough idea. It all depends on area. Where are you in the midlands?

 

[JCplumb]

Have to agree with Leo21, just the fact that the customer is providing the materials would ring alarm bells, you can guarantee half of it will be wrong. You'll end up spending way too long on this job for very little profit by the sounds of it.

 

[Nostrum]

Agree with all that has already been said. The scrap deal is a joke, you'd be better off telling him you'll have the cassh and he can keep the scrap, it's a bonus not inclusive of the price. By the time you take it out bag it up, clean it up and drop it off etc, plus you take a gamble on its value as it's hardly easy to estimate.

Only you can answer the cost of your labour. How much do you charge a day to pay the bills, earn a wage and put some back into the business? I personally wouldn't go under £200 a day and I would approx estimate that you on your own aren't going to do a decent job in less than 5 days, maybe more depending on layout.

You could say to him that seeing as he's going on the cheap you'll do it on a day rate for him, estimate 5 days but if its nore or less the price will be adjusted? I wouldn't personally, sometimes you have to take a knock and except you've under charged when your finding your feet, that's the learning curve we all have to take.

 

[Leo21]

You could say to him that seeing as he's going on the cheap you'll do it on a day rate for him, estimate 5 days but if its nore or less the price will be adjusted? I wouldn't personally, sometimes you have to take a knock and except you've under charged when your finding your feet, that's the learning curve we all have to take.[/QUOTE]

Spot on, the more you do the better you get. When you supply and fit you take the risk making money or not. So usually you air on the side of caution and make more. If you give him a fixed price you could lose quite easily. When your labours exposed you'll get nothing but, you do alright, should've been a pumber etc etc.

 

[rodders]

Personally I wouldn't quote, the guys trying to pull a fast one. Don't take the price of the scrap off. Leave it for him or charge labour to go and weigh it in. You could call some local guys for rough quote on the same job. Act like a customer of course. Deduct the the materials and you've got a rough idea. It all depends on area. Where are you in the midlands?

Hi, I've quoted for this job as this is a friend of a friend - he came with me to look at the job also. He's not pulling a fast one (i hope) he just said he wanted to keep cylinder and copper etc, i said I would like to take scrap if possible he said ok knock it off the price, i said ok (I am knocking off £50 - thats for a cylinder, all copper in house, radiators, steel gas pipe etc think I've got a good deal there, scrap yard about 2 mins from my house).

I've estimated 5 days work how much would you guys charge?

Thanks

 

[buckley plumb]

done jobs like this and ended up out of pocket . agree a day rate and do that way or explain to customer that if he supplies the parts if something is wrong or damaged that he will be paying you to drink coffe while he takes it back .as for the scrap let him weight it in and have the hassle of moving it or agree you will take it for £1 a kilo.

ant

 

[rodders]

done jobs like this and ended up out of pocket . agree a day rate and do that way or explain to customer that if he supplies the parts if something is wrong or damaged that he will be paying you to drink coffe while he takes it back .as for the scrap let him weight it in and have the hassle of moving it or agree you will take it for £1 a kilo.

ant

What would your date rate be for this job?

 

[buckley plumb]

What would your date rate be for this job?

depends what area you are in in staffs its low as there are to many plumbers here. £150 approx

 

[Nostrum]

Seriously, and don't take offence, if you are running a business YOU need to calculate your hourly rate. Once you've done this you can price anything using the same principles. Add up all your overheads, van, insurance, telephone, gassafe, tools and calibration, fuel etc. Now decide what sort of wage you want to take home (remember the tax and NI) then ask yourself how much money you want to return into the business for advertising and growing the business etc (remember you run a business that ideally wants to grow, not just earning a wage) add them all up and divide into a day rate, hourly rate etc.

no point guessing a number and not realising your running at a loss.

I charge a little more for the first hour to cover travelling time/expense and then a rate for every hour thereafter. My day rate works out a touch less on the basis that a days work guaranteed without running about all day is worth a little bit less to me. If someone offered me 3 weeks work, i'd probably also charge less again to remain competitive and knowing that I wouldn't have to find work for 3 weeks. A bit like bulk discount.

Don't fall into the common mistake of under estimating your overheads either, don't be afraid to add everything you can thing of onto the list. I do it for the year and break it down into weeks.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

just ask for a day rate

 

[jtsplumbing]

Tell him £1200.00 Labour only and all that comes of the van is your tools, let him keep the scrap , if he wants to provide materials fine, but point out that he will have to do the running around for best prices, anything that is damaged / missing or holding you up will be down to him, it's cost you 4 hrs so far time you have sorted out the rest of the list at least another 4 hrs of your time so you are already up to 6 days

 

[peteheat]

Rodders,

I suggest that you read sambotc post at the page very carefully, there is a lot of sound advice in that post.

I noticed you have to collect the materials? If yes he is hiring your van as well.

Today I would walk, but even in my bad times I would be doubling up my first thoughts because my experience is people like that never pay for changes or the unforeseen.

In fact I have seen such arrangements ending in rows because the customer does not understand we always buy more fittings, copper etc as running around looking a fitting costs us money, what happens when you add the 6 x 310's used out of your van?

I expect you will price tight to get the job (human nature) so to learn from the experience take plenty of notes as you go, whatever happens smile when he is paying you even if you lose money.

By me a fair price would as near to £2,000 as you can get more if possible.

 

[rodders]

Cheers for all the help, quoted for the job and will see what happens, I will let you know.

Thanks

 

[Nat]

What did you quote then? For what its worth I was thinking 1200 at the very least but it is hard to say without seeing it. Hope you get the job and it doesn't come back to bite you. Did you do A proper written estimate with all the terms and conditions and get him to agree in writing?

 

[rodders]

What did you quote then? For what its worth I was thinking 1200 at the very least but it is hard to say without seeing it. Hope you get the job and it doesn't come back to bite you. Did you do A proper written estimate with all the terms and conditions and get him to agree in writing?

Yeah I sent a proper written quote, with T+Cs covering everything. 150 x 5 days + added a bit for 5 days travelling costs so quoted 850.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Think you a bit low for what the job is but if you are happy with the price then fine, just make sure its only tools that come of the van ! what happend about the scrap ??

 

[SafeGasInstall]

And i bet you other plumbers who sent proper quote for the job will be asking them self how come they have priced the job fearlly at about 4/5k they never got it !!!
think about it how many times you have been there , so is me !!!!

 

[BLOD]

Have to say I think you've gone in a bit low as well, but youve seen the job none of us have - hope it goes well if you get it, let us know.

 

[Leo21]

There's one positive, youll definately get the job. If he barters with you I strongly recommend you tell him where to get off. He's got an absolute bargain.

 

[Masood]

Yeah I sent a proper written quote, with T+Cs covering everything. 150 x 5 days + added a bit for 5 days travelling costs so quoted 850.

Can only echo what others have said - seems very generous to me. I sincerely hope the job runs so smoothly that you make a decent profit. I've only recently set up on my own myself, so I know what you're going through. All the best with it, and as others have said, keep your stock fittings in the van and make him pay for absolutely everything you use...

 

[peteheat]

I agree with the other posters, so how about learning from our mistakes? We have made them in the past.

Remove everything except your hand tools from the van, I mean everything, drills saws etc are extra or he hires them for you.

Customer will want a material list so add mapp gas, joint sealant, flax, screws, plugs, flux, solder etc to his list not from your van, remember if your van is empty you need all of the above with the order.

You won't lose everything on the job (maybe money) what you will gain is experience.

Another suggestion that if he doesn't think your price too low and gives you the job call into your local supplier, tell him you have a customer coming to buy a full heating system and ask that he holds your discount for you to collect in fittings, tube etc later.

Being brutally honest your day rate is way too low considering the level of responsibility you are taking on, a consumer is not the same as an employer who has a margin on the job, there is very little if any forgiveness from this type of employer.

Wishing you nothing but the best.

 

[rodders]

Thanks for your help guys, I am quickly learning that working for yourself is very tough! It's not like just turning up and fitting a system and then going home, therese so much more to it than that, but I knew this when I started.

This price is very low, I know that. But its my first big heating job since setting myself up and my prices will come up over the next few months. To be honest I don't think if it runs over it will be any problem for me I've got no other work booked in - last week I earned £30 profit on changing a toilet valve. No other work all week. At least when I get this I'm out and about doing something! I'll just be glad to be working and getting my hands on the tools, instead of leafleting!

Plus I need 3 jobs to show Gas Safe in about 1 and half months this would only be my first.

The customer also stated scrap is mine.

Just waiting to hear back from him...

Cheers for your time.

 

[mfgs]

Hope you get it mate. Working for yourself is very hard, I have been on my own now about 11 months and the last couple of weeks have been the quietest I have had in ages. I have put loads of prices in for new boilers over the last month and I have only got one of them which isnt going to be done for about a month anyway. I know its tempting to put in lower prices as I did this myself, but then when things went wrong or took longer than I thought I started to resent working on the job due to the amount of money I was earning from it. Now I have what I want to earn and I would rather not work than work for lower than that. I do quite enjoy my job and all job satisfaction goes away when I price things too low.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Me as above vary quaiet , so i started doing what i k ow best :
Subby doing 1 a day for a HA

 

[REDSAW]

i this case i would ask to see other quote and let him know if you can beat it.
sounds like a time waster and you will never get anywhere doing theese jobs.
sod the scrap, take the cash.