How did we get here?

[gasmanrob]

Not sure wrote it but someone said the following don't let the tail wag the dog.

it seems that more and more people are making a living being the middle man, and I want to know who is responsible for this??
someone must be held accountable for their actions.

how is it I am unable to get in with age concern yet a "property management" company can but don't actually do any off the work just sub it out and take 30% for forwarding an email

how can a letting agent complain about £50 plus vat for a safety cert when they charge the landlord 85 plus vat (£102) for forwarding an email

who allowed an office jockey to say a boiler swap under a home grant scheme is only worth £291 if you provide the fittings!!

so as previously mentioned I want answers... More so I want names and I want tribunals. Dam it I want an enquiry!! :mad2:

 

[albatross]

Most business deals are made on the golf course.

From around 1700 to 1980 is could be said we lived in the greatest nation in the world, we invented, designed, made everything, self sufficient. At the cutting edge in all industries making great advances in science, medicine, welfare, industry. In fact all business sectors. Then successive governments thought it was an idea to create millions of pointless jobs shuffling paper around, taking a cut but ultimately doing nothing. So the real workers like us have to work three times harder and the end users pay more to absorb the extra cost of the office fairies. Not a problem at first but it has grown and now all the real productive work is done abroad and we import everything. One day when China and India and Russia realise they can do the paperwork as well as everything else for a fraction of the cost what will happen to the UK? A nation of management and marketing prats suddenly unemployed with not enough skill to change a plug!

 

[gasmanrob]

Just gets me how it has got this far. The free market is being dictated to by middle men.

and all the time people are out doing the work it will continue. We are a nation that seems to be falling behind in innovation and progress but I can agree with the manufacturing side of things whilst we don't produce like we used to there is a lot of it still going on just not the rubbish stuff like Austin and British Leyland

 

[gasmanrob]

Sorry "can't agree"

 

[Ray Stafford]

There are two contributing factors Rob - one legitimate and the other not.

The legitimate one is the desire of larger property owners to want to deal with a single service entity. For example, if we weren't in the trade - would I want 27 different maintenance contracts on our branches, with 27 different local plumbers? And the same again for electrical, roofers etc etc? Or would we prefer a single contract with a facilities management company - even though I know they are going to sub the actual work? TBH, we would probably go for the latter.

The newer, and to my mind less legitimate issue is all the scheme-mongers involved in MCS, Green deal, Eco, etc who demand pointless paperwork systems. These are quite onerous for the average self employed tradesman or small firm, which drives the work into the hands of paper-pushers. This happens because the people charged with introducing the schemes are office- based, process driven individuals, and when they "consult" the industry, they inevitable turn to the larger firms, who have the resources to deal with all these paper systems - and actively want them because they know it prevents the smaller firm competing. They never "consult" with the smaller guy, and even if they did, they wouldn't speak the same language.

If you want to take to the barricades over that latter point, I'm right there with you comrade. Its bordering on the criminal.

 

[hammers4spanner]

i with ray on this totally understand bring say 500 propereties under one umbrella , however this pas2030 is utter carp i need a paper system or whatever it is to fit a boiler ,

i already have that in palce its called a gas safe sign off 10 mins sat at a computer on that website

its these eaga heat ,liberty.mears tools that grate me they chase these contracts under price them to get 5 years of council bashing and then when they start they realise no moneys to be made ,

so hey ho £175 per boiler change and you must also have a scrap waste scard , part p and part L

if nooone does work at these hideous rates then they would loose control of the dog

 

[SafeGasInstall]

if no one takes the jobs then they will have to put prices up

 

[gassafe]

Scrap all these middle men & bring back a scheme that will really boost the trade... Such as a bringing back the boiler scrappage scheme, there is still plenty of old relics out there, make it accessible to any gas safe installer too not just those who can jump through the pas2030 hoops...

 

[SafeGasInstall]

We need a work man Union !!! Other way BG and big corporation will finish us all slowly !!!

 

[solutions]

We need a work man Union !!! Other way BG and big corporation will finish us all slowly !!!

I am not a huge fan of unions. But the idea of a cooperative or other means by which like minded quality driven independent local plumbers and gas engineers can share marketing, gain access to the benefits of volume purchasing, and in an ideal world price fix & monopolise would be great. Especialy if you could get a posse together and run the cowboys out of town.

 

[Killy Bing]

I am not a huge fan of unions. But the idea of a cooperative or other means by which like minded quality driven independent local plumbers and gas engineers can share marketing, gain access to the benefits of volume purchasing, and in an ideal world price fix & monopolise would be great. Especialy if you could get a posse together and run the cowboys out of town.

hmm, touching on volume purchasing.

where do you start and stop?
in this industry our best and worst friends are the merchants.

could we all agree to buy 1000 boilers between us?
nope, because we wouldent want the same brand or model!.

but what we all do have in common for example is the use of copper!!

so we buy 10,000 metres of 15mm
7000 metres of 22mm
2000m of 28mm
30 tonnes of fittings to share

great! Our purchasing price has gone down, increasing OUR profits

but our good old independent merchants feel the pinch and raises boiler prices
we dont agree with that and boycott them and use someone else.

the cycle repeats till we fall out between ourselves.

being left with national chains with inflated prices......

 

[solutions]

hmm, touching on volume purchasing.

where do you start and stop?
in this industry our best and worst friends are the merchants.

could we all agree to buy 1000 boilers between us?
nope, because we wouldent want the same brand or model!.

but what we all do have in common for example is the use of copper!!

so we buy 10,000 metres of 15mm
7000 metres of 22mm
2000m of 28mm
30 tonnes of fittings to share

great! Our purchasing price has gone down, increasing OUR profits

but our good old independent merchants feel the pinch and raises boiler prices
we dont agree with that and boycott them and use someone else.

the cycle repeats till we fall out between ourselves.

being left with national chains with inflated prices......

I agree thats a possibility. But im not thinking national scale more county or city if populated enough.

 

[stevetheplumber]

3 of our local independent merchants used to buy in bulk together, two were swallowed up by the big boys one has got to medium size but mostly does bathrooms now

 

[Ray Stafford]

There are several independent merchant buying co-operatives. Two of the biggest, National Merchant Buying Society (NMBS) and United Merchants (UNIMER) have just merged, with the resultant buying group having a turnover in excess of £1billion, which is a pretty tidy sum.

The problem though, as Killy Bing pointed out earlier is getting the co-ordination, and above all the speed and decisiveness.

Getting the best price in our game is only partly about volume. More important are timing and cash. Get the timing wrong, or tie your cash up in the wrong product, and you lose any advantage that negotiating for volume may have given you.

If you follow the plumbers purchasing co-op to its logical conclusion, you simply have another merchant, whose shareholders are plumbers.

 

[Masood]

If you follow the plumbers purchasing co-op to its logical conclusion, you simply have another merchant, whose shareholders are plumbers.

So when are you floating Ray? And do we get preference shares??

 

[Ray Stafford]

So when are you floating Ray? And do we get preference shares??

Never. And therefore, no. 🙂

Its bad enough selling to plumbers. The thought of being owned by plumbers is enough to send a shiver down my spine.