Incompetent Plumber and SNIPEF

[FedUp2]

Over the last year we have had a plumber do several jobs for us. We initially (stupidly) paid him £8,000 and last October he tried tocharge us a further £18,000. He has leftus with work that needs to be put rightand it appears that he has done work that didn’t need doing in the first placebecause he advised us that it did need to be done.
He threatened to take us to court as we refused to pay himmore than a further £7,500. On theadvice of another plumber we took the case to SNIPEF (as he is a member of thisorganisation) back at the beginning of November. Therewere two panel meetings before they decided that the work probably did not meetbuilding regulations or best practice. The plumber appealed this decision so we then had to wait for a furtherpanel meeting. This panel meetingrejected the appeal and made this decision final. We then had to wait a further four weeks for aninspection by the SNIPEF appointed technical advisor. Two days before this inspection was due totake place we got home on the evening to find a message left on our answermachine informing us that the plumber would also be in attendance. We phoned SNIPEF the following morning (bynow the eve of the inspection) to stress to them that we would not have thisman back on our premises under any circumstances. They had already been made aware severaltimes that we would not be allowing this plumber back on our premises, we hadeven put it in writing back in November. Also there had been no mention at all that they would insist on theplumber being in attendance until two days before the inspection was due totake place. We advised them that wewould be amenable to a representative of the plumber attending but not the manhimself. Because we refused admission tothe offending plumber, this long-awaited inspection was cancelled bySNIPEF. This morning we received aletter from SNIPEF informing us there was nothing else they could do and thatthe case was closed. So it has basicallytaken them six months to do NOTHING.
Does anyone know where we would stand if we tried to takeSNIPEF to court for causing us all this wasted time and further unnecessarydistress. We contacted a surveyor whogave us the details of a specialist in the field. This man attended and inspected the work onFriday and is now in the process of preparing a report for us. Would we be able to claim these costs backfrom SNIPEF?
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Personally I have never heard of SNIPEF, you will find though that a lot of organisations proporting to be regulating 'tradesmen' are being paid by them to be a member, as such they are hardly likely to take them to task because they would get a reputation amongst tradesmen who then wouldnt use them.
As for the work, if you have a proven case there is no reason why both SNIPEF and the 'plumber' shouldnt be refunding your costs.
Trading Standards now have websites designed to allow customers to check a trader and leave a review, it is in its infancy, but as they are not paid, and the reviews are not controlled by the trader, they will start to show the poorer traders for what they are, our local one is Help Direct Safe Trader on the Lancashire Trading Standards website.

 

[happyflyer]

Can't work out the difference between the £8000.00 and then the further £18000 ??? got me beat can you explain, why don't you wait until he takes you to court tell him you intent to employed an expert witness and keep these idiots SNIPEF out of it, I can't see any reason why they would want the plumber there at the inspection anyway, what was their reason for insisting on this. I doubt you getting anywhere trying to sue SNIPEF.

What did the inspector say of Friday, doing work that was not required will be one hell of a thing to prove and may be exceptionally subjective, I wouldn't try taking that in front of a judge.

How bad is the work, was the plumber from hell.

 

[Gray0689]

Can't work out the difference between the £8000.00 and then the further £18000 ??? got me beat can you explain, why don't you wait until he takes you to court tell him you intent to employed an expert witness and keep these idiots SNIPEF out of it, I can't see any reason why they would want the plumber there at the inspection anyway, what was their reason for insisting on this. I doubt you getting anywhere trying to sue SNIPEF.

What did the inspector say of Friday, doing work that was not required will be one hell of a thing to prove and may be exceptionally subjective, I wouldn't try taking that in front of a judge.

How bad is the work, was the plumber from hell.

Don't know much about this SNIPEF but I thing a senior member on here has had dealings with them he is user name TAMZ if you pm him I'm sure he may be able to give you some info
Did you not try and go through the plumbers public liability insurers

 

[Dotty]

SNIPEF is the Scottish and Northern Ireland Plumbing Employers Federation.

I'd consider getting on to trading standards if I were you buddy

Obviously we can't say anymore as we've only heard your side but we'll give you the best advice we can given the situation.

You should also be aware that we can only give you our opinions.

 

[FedUp2]

This man has already had £15,500 out of us and still wants a further £10,500, i.e. a grand total of £26,000. We don't know why SNIPEF were insisting on the plumber being there. The expert witness has taken a section of the plastic piping which the plumber had claimed to be corroded and needed to be replaced (three other plumbers as well as this independent expert cannot see anything wrong with the pipework) for examination and report by another expert. But that was just one part (albeit a large part) of the work that he had undertaken. He has caused damage and left the place a mess. We can't get the placed finished until this is all settled and have been living "rough" for over a year now. Even the expert witness suggested "Rogue traders".
We did not deduct for the "unnecessary" work but we have worked out that, without deducting for that work or the cost of the remedial work, he is trying to overcharge us by around £10,000 - £12,000.
Plumber from hell would be an understatement.

 

[Gray0689]

What work was he going for £26k

 

[FedUp2]

been there, done that, got the t-shirt

 

[plumber0808]

I would call it a day myself and unfortunately put it down to a very bad experience. To even get anywhere it is going to cost more money, at the end of any legal process is he going to hand the money back? Very unlikely.
By all means go to trading standards to report them.

Maybe you could post the work up in the forum if it needs rectifying or finishing.

 

[Dotty]

been there, done that, got the t-shirt

Really not sure what else to suggest then.

 

[snowhead]

We don't know why SNIPEF were insisting on the plumber being there.

I would think it would be to defend himself and explain what he had and handn't done.

Personally I would have allowed him in accompanied by SNIPEF.

I beleive you may have damaged your own chances by refusing.

 

[FedUp2]

Installation of a combi-boiler and oil tank, replacement mains water pipe, installation of standpipe, fitted new bathroom (we provided everything except the pipes, adhesive for the tiles and grout), replaced some (though he is trying to claim ALL) of the heating pipework in the attic cos he said it would all need replacing due to corrosion), fitted a few radiators. Most of the work was not done by him but by an unqualified plumber and a young plumbers mate. The actual plumber himself was around for very little of the time.

 

[happyflyer]

This man has already had £15,500 out of us and still wants a further £10,500, i.e. a grand total of £26,000. We don't know why SNIPEF were insisting on the plumber being there. The expert witness has taken a section of the plastic piping which the plumber had claimed to be corroded and needed to be replaced (three other plumbers as well as this independent expert cannot see anything wrong with the pipework) for examination and report by another expert. But that was just one part (albeit a large part) of the work that he had undertaken. He has caused damage and left the place a mess. We can't get the placed finished until this is all settled and have been living "rough" for over a year now. Even the expert witness suggested "Rogue traders".
We did not deduct for the "unnecessary" work but we have worked out that, without deducting for that work or the cost of the remedial work, he is trying to overcharge us by around £10,000 - £12,000.
Plumber from hell would be an understatement.

Fedup2,

You will need to get you facts right before you proceed anywhere with this case, you said in your opening submission that you paid him £8000 and now you says he's had £15,500 off you, all the people who go on rough traders have always paid up front, I can never understand why, at least you have held some back, I would let the expert witness get on with it, and take no notice of anyone else, that's what you took him on to do, don't get sidetracked now. and another thing the expert witness has seen the job, we haven't. You will only get confused, are you posting on here because you have doubts about the expert witness???

 

[happyflyer]

I would think it would be to defend himself and explain what he had and handn't done.

Personally I would have allowed him in accompanied by SNIPEF.

I beleive you may have damaged your own chances by refusing.

You might be well right snowhead

 

[FedUp2]

A representative could have done the same thing. As for what had been done - this was all down on the bills he had given us. Actually, there are items on his bill that should not be there! They also had pre- and -post photographs. Beside, they could easily have discussed their findings with the plumber off-site. He did not need to be here.

If this man were to come anywhere near me ever again I would not be responsible for my actions. How do these people expect us to feel?

 

[FedUp2]

Thanks happyflyer, you are absolutely right.

He has had £8,000 plus a further £7,500 bringing the total we have paid him to £15,500. We didn't pay up front. We paid £8000 for the first part of the job after he'd done it (combi-boiler and oil tank) and it was only when he tried to overcharge us by such a large amount on the second bill that we checked the first bill to find he had overcharged us by £3000 on the first bill. Still stupid though, huh!

No, I have no doubts about the expert witness. I suppose I'm just letting off steam. I feel so angry that SNIPEF could allow someone as bad as this plumber remain on their books. Since we had the work done, we have learnt that this man has a terrible reputation around these parts and he has to travel further and further afield to get work. Unfortunately we are new to the area and have learnt the hard way.

 

[Koogatubac]

We cant judge until we even see the photos? What if you were a customer from hell?

 

[FedUp2]

We were going to just grit our teeth and get the remedial work done in October but the plumber was threatening to take us to court for the balance which we have not paid him. So, unfortunately, while we were willing at that time to put it down as a bad experience the plumber refused to let the matter drop. We had been hoping to have finished renovating, if not decorating, the place by Christmas instead we find ourselves still at a standstill because of this incompetent conman.

 

[happyflyer]

Then let your expert witness do his job

 

[tamz]

Personally I have never heard of SNIPEF, you will find though that a lot of organisations proporting to be regulating 'tradesmen' are being paid by them to be a member, as such they are hardly likely to take them to task because they would get a reputation amongst tradesmen who then wouldnt use them

Thats because you are in England.
Snipef is the Scottish and Northern Ireland Plumbing Employers Federation. Much the same as APHC, HVCA or CIPHE in England and Wales. They work alongside government and other industry orginisations.

Yes they are paid by the members but i assure you they will take companies to task.

To the OP get back onto them on Monday for an explanation of why they consider the case closed.

The instller won't chase you for any extra monies as they have lost their appeal so would most likely loose in court.

 

[CES]

:iagree:

 

[Dotty]

:iagree: as well.

 

[SimonG]

I can't really see why you refused to let the bloke be present. SNIPEF had already found in your favour and already declined his appeal. You were definitely in the drivers seat.

I think your pride could end up costing you money.


I am however struggling to see how on the first job he overcharged you by 3k when the job was 8k? I take it he gave you an estimate for the work that you accepted? and I take it you went out and got at least three prices for the works?

 

[happyflyer]

I can't really see why you refused to let the bloke be present. SNIPEF had already found in your favour and already declined his appeal. You were definitely in the drivers seat.

I think your pride could end up costing you money.


I am however struggling to see how on the first job he overcharged you by 3k when the job was 8k? I take it he gave you an estimate for the work that you accepted? and I take it you went out and got at least three prices for the works?

Simon,

I am as confused as you, its an enigma rolled up in enigma, just bite the bullet and let the plumber 30 mins in there house they would not be posting here.

 

[lame plumber]

see him in your house, cheaper than seeing him in court

 

[Avatar]

Why dont you just take the 'plumber' to court if you still feel raw about it?

It seems you have more than enough proof that his work was questionable.

Are you sure he was a bona-fide plumber? I cannot see how he was demanding so much money off you for the kind of work you mentioned . . . . My God, even if you ripped all the plumbing out of a house and reinstalled new gear everywhere you would be hard pushed to spend 20 grand plus!!!

It all sounds seriously suspect to me . . . . It does sound like the sort of work an iffy builder type might do.

You could always call Cowboy Builder I suppose - there is a certain annoying bald bloke on there who might be interested in taking them 'to task'!!!!

Or alternately just walk away from it. Sounds like you have had more than enough stress already thats for certain!

 

[happyflyer]

Why dont you just take the 'plumber' to court if you still feel raw about it?

It seems you have more than enough proof that his work was questionable.

Are you sure he was a bona-fide plumber? I cannot see how he was demanding so much money off you for the kind of work you mentioned . . . . My God, even if you ripped all the plumbing out of a house and reinstalled new gear everywhere you would be hard pushed to spend 20 grand plus!!!

It all sounds seriously suspect to me . . . . It does sound like the sort of work an iffy builder type might do.

You could always call Cowboy Builder I suppose - there is a certain annoying bald bloke on there who might be interested in taking them 'to task'!!!!

Or alternately just walk away from it. Sounds like you have had more than enough stress already thats for certain!

I fully agree, hang him :hanged: or off with his head, cowboys builder will take another year

 

[vern]

I smell there's far more too this storey than in the info that on here!

 

[jim fennessey]

As far as i am aware everyone who is contracted to do work for clients , have a legal right to correct any faulty work in despute , the fact that you just dont want the plumber back on your whim, is neither here nor there ,this will not wash in court room, unless something very seriouse had happened,when you hire a plumber or company get a full written quotation,and then draft up a small contract,covering all aspects of the project , you sign ,he signs ,then you have a leg to stand on, courts solicitors will not be intrested in you because it will be your word against the plumbers snipef tried to help you both by going to your property to solve problem , but you dont want the plumber there ? anyone with some savvy would want the guy there to explain and sort things out but you dont seem to want that. so that will rule out any help from snipef,as they are meant to look after the plumbers and you, again if you have personel problems with plumber that is your whim courts wont except any sort of discrimination in any shape or form,and the plumber must be aloud to sort any problems out , you dont have to be on site.so may i remind you the job was between you and the plumber no one else, not snipef or so called expert witnessess, i suggest you contact plumber and sit down and have a talk about things and sort it all out as you will just loss out at the end of the day and a costly reminder to get paperwork sorted before the job starts,

 

[Keefy]

@FedUp2 - Can you tell us what work you asked to be done in the beginning and what extra work the plumber said needed to be done?

 

[Dotty]

As far as i am aware everyone who is contracted to do work for clients , have a legal right to correct any faulty work in despute , the fact that you just dont want the plumber back on your whim, is neither here nor there ,this will not wash in court room, unless something very seriouse had happened,when you hire a plumber or company get a full written quotation,and then draft up a small contract,covering all aspects of the project , you sign ,he signs ,then you have a leg to stand on, courts solicitors will not be intrested in you because it will be your word against the plumbers snipef tried to help you both by going to your property to solve problem , but you dont want the plumber there ? anyone with some savvy would want the guy there to explain and sort things out but you dont seem to want that. so that will rule out any help from snipef,as they are meant to look after the plumbers and you, again if you have personel problems with plumber that is your whim courts wont except any sort of discrimination in any shape or form,and the plumber must be aloud to sort any problems out , you dont have to be on site.so may i remind you the job was between you and the plumber no one else, not snipef or so called expert witnessess, i suggest you contact plumber and sit down and have a talk about things and sort it all out as you will just loss out at the end of the day and a costly reminder to get paperwork sorted before the job starts,

Very nicely put.

 

[happyflyer]

I agree with all what you say Jim, but we have not met the plumber, sounds like a real gent, and we don't know what the clients like , sometimes they need to let the courts decided and sod the cost, the only problem is the law make the money, but someone will win, but will the damages cover the cost I doubt it.

Tony

 

[Keefy]

I agree with all what you say Jim, but we have not met the plumber, sounds like a real gent, and we don't know what the clients like , sometimes they need to let the courts decided and sod the cost, the only problem is the law make the money, but someone will win, but will the damages cover the cost I doubt it.

Tony

I'm not taking sides because there are lots of grey areas in this story. I think from SNIPEF's point of view they've took on the case as an intermediary to try and resolve the issue but the customer has refused to cooperate.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I'm not taking sides because there are lots of grey areas in this story. I think from SNIPEF's point of view they've took on the case as an intermediary to try and resolve the issue but the customer has refused to cooperate.

That's how it sounds to me too. But customer has given us too little factual info and obviously we don't have the plumbers side.

Some sort of mediation nearly always works best (cheaper for both parties) instead of court.

I understand OP customer didn't want the plumber in their house again but it would not be fair for them to present their case to SNIPEF without the plumber being there to witness the complaint and know what exactly he was accused of.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

FedUp2
I am having trouble following what you are trying to tell us.
May be because I am in England?
EG. You said SNIPEF found the work probably did not meet building regulations or best practice.
And he lost at appeal.
I don't know about SNIPEF or what those decisions mean in practice.
It he has lost why did SNIPEF still want to come and view the work in your house? Surely they do that before they reach the decision?

This process with SNIPEF is something you started with them surely they give you info about the process including what you can do it you are not happy with them.

paid him £8,000 and
he tried to charge us a further £18,000.
He has left us with work that needs to be put right
and it appears that he has done work that didn’t need doing in the first place because he advised us that it did need to be done.

Does anyone know where we would stand if we tried to take SNIPEF to court for causing us all this wasted time and further unnecessary distress.

I suspect not much point in taking SNIPEF to court.
I do have experience of small claims court in England and they only award on hard facts. Time wasted and distress is not measured and no funds are awarded for it.

... This man attended and inspected the work on Friday and is now in the process of preparing a report for us. Would we be able to claim these costs backfrom SNIPEF?

I can't understand why you think you would be doing thar?
Or what this report by the new expert is for?

This man has already had £15,500 out of us
and still wants a further £10,500, i.e. a grand total of £26,000.

We did not deduct for the "unnecessary" work but we have worked out that, without deducting for that work or the cost of the remedial work, he is trying to overcharge us by around £10,000 - £12,000.

Installation of a combi-boiler and oil tank, replacement mains water pipe, installation of standpipe, fitted new bathroom (we provided everything except the pipes, adhesive for the tiles and grout), replaced some (though he is trying to claim ALL) of the heating pipework in the attic cos he said it would all need replacing due to corrosion), fitted a few radiators.

It is possible to make a small error on a final invoice but how does an over charge of around £10,000 + happen?
Did he give you written quotes?
How much were these for? We assume you got 3 quotes for the work.

Most of the work was not done by him but by an unqualified plumber and a young plumbers mate. The actual plumber himself was around for very little of the time.
Actually, there are items on his bill that should not be there! They also had pre- and -post photographs. Beside, they could easily have discussed their findings with the plumber off-site. He did not need to be here.

If this man were to come anywhere near me ever again I would not be responsible for my actions. How do these people expect us to feel?

It is not unusual for contractors to employ others and some jobs require a lot of donkey work not the skills of qualified plumbers so this in itself is not a reason to withhold payment.
But he is ultimately responsible for ensuring you are left with a good standard of workmanship.

You mention how you feel but he may also have a valid point of view. Have you found out his point of view and discussed these over charges.

If there was some problem with some of his work it is usual to pay for all the rest of the work that was OK and to give him the chance to rectify problems.

In situations such as yours it may be that you can both agree to appoint another plumber to do corrective work and deduct the fees from this new person from what you owe him.

 

[tamz]

Here is the complaints proceedure



There is a bit more to this than is being told.

 

[jim fennessey]

may be the plumber was far too cheap sounds a lot of work for that amount is that vat inclusive? health and safety nowadays can add thousands to jobs before you even get to turn the water supply off .

 

[Guest123]

You should get on to that specialist lawyer that you spoke of earlier and do it soon. Remember SNIPEF is an organisation for Plumbers and will try to defend their members first. They also have a legal department and offer this service to their members, so you may find yourself in a long expensive legal battle.

They send me membership requests every few months and I refuse to join.

 

[Richie_77]

Installation of a combi-boiler and oil tank, replacement mains water pipe, installation of standpipe, fitted new bathroom (we provided everything except the pipes, adhesive for the tiles and grout), replaced some (though he is trying to claim ALL) of the heating pipework in the attic cos he said it would all need replacing due to corrosion), fitted a few radiators. Most of the work was not done by him but by an unqualified plumber and a young plumbers mate. The actual plumber himself was around for very little of the time.

What was his original price for this work ?

 

[on31ll]

Thanks happyflyer, you are absolutely right.

He has had £8,000 plus a further £7,500 bringing the total we have paid him to £15,500. We didn't pay up front. We paid £8000 for the first part of the job after he'd done it (combi-boiler and oil tank) and it was only when he tried to overcharge us by such a large amount on the second bill that we checked the first bill to find he had overcharged us by £3000 on the first bill. Still stupid though, huh!

im confused by this bit ? He gace you a price carried out the work then ypu payed all was happy untill you thought he was ripping you off ln you next lot of work ? So when you looked back you say he ripped you off in the first quote ? What did he over charge you on ?

I could fit a bathroom for say 15k and it only cost me 1k in materials ! But if i have thos down as the quote and you except then thats fine ! Im not ripping you off because i charge you 14k in labour !