Landlord safety checks

[Koogatubac]

Im wondering,

I only have my gas boilers, pipework and fga on my ticket

Some plumbers ive spoke to they said i cant do landlord safety checks since i dont have fires and cookers

However some at the merchants said they still do LL safety checks when all they have is a boiler on.

Whats your take on these guys?

Might be worth me getting these appliances now? (got 3 years left on my gas till renewal) or wait?

Quite confusing because its all checks, not services, and even when your doig your ACS the inspector still gets you to do flue tests on chimneys where fires have been installed and testing cooker safety devices

 

[Blake]

It's simple really, you can do GSC on premises that have a boiler only. If there are premises with fires and cookers you can't do them and would need to find a fellow engineer who does have fires/cookers on their ticket to do them for you.

Far easier if you just get your fires/cookers ticket otherwise you are potentially loosing out out on work.

 

[Koogatubac]

Cheers broz!

Think ill have to get back to college to do them! Got quoted £350 to do them both! Same cost as me sitting my LPG Course im doing next week

 

[GrahamM]

Im wondering,

I only have my gas boilers, pipework and fga on my ticket

Some plumbers ive spoke to they said i cant do landlord safety checks since i dont have fires and cookers

However some at the merchants said they still do LL safety checks when all they have is a boiler on.

Whats your take on these guys?

Might be worth me getting these appliances now? (got 3 years left on my gas till renewal) or wait?

Quite confusing because its all checks, not services, and even when your doig your ACS the inspector still gets you to do flue tests on chimneys where fires have been installed and testing cooker safety devices

You have your CCN1 & CEN1 correct?
You are deemed competent to work on back boilers/fires then, so this is why you have to be deemed competent to carry out F/F and Spill tests.
You are not permitted to work on stand alone fires though.

Now this issue been discussed before and some companies/engineers have a different view on how it is dealt with.
If the fire is not owned by the landlord, to the letter of the law this is not included in the LGSC. Therefore only visual checks apply and you do not need to work on it.

 

[andyg0507]

as above, tenants appliace = there responsibilty, l/lords= your responsibilty during lgsc

 

[mikegas]

The flue from the fire needs to be checked though as that's the landlords, so the fire will need to be removed

 

[GrahamM]

The flue from the fire needs to be checked though as that's the landlords, so the fire will need to be removed

So the tenant has their own fire fitted. You come along and say I need to remove your fire to check the landlord chimney.
They say "no, you have NO permission to touch MY fire"!

 

[GrahamM]

Some info here:

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/gas-safe-registered-plumbers/36767-landlords-safety-checks-2.html

 

[mikegas]

Thanks for the link, I missed that one. Looks like another grey area

 

[johnnyplumb]

So the tenant has their own fire fitted. You come along and say I need to remove your fire to check the landlord chimney.
They say "no, you have NO permission to touch MY fire"!

most tenancy agreements state that the tenant has to seek the landlords permission if he/she wants to change anything,
so the landlord then has two choices,

1- dont allow the fire to be installed

2- allow the fire to be installed and maintain / check chimney

 

[GrahamM]

most tenancy agreements state that the tenant has to seek the landlords permission if he/she wants to change anything,
so the landlord then has two choices,

1- dont allow the fire to be installed

2- allow the fire to be installed and maintain / check chimney

Or, just forget about the chimney if the tenant has own fire fitted as as far as I am aware, legally there is no direct responsibility for landlord as is discussed in link above. (if you have contradicting info please post links) The tenant has their own responsibility to have their own appliance tested and this should be impressed on tenant by the landlord, therefore the chimney would be checked.

 

[johnnyplumb]

a landlords responsible for everything that he provides in a property, therefore he's responsible for the chimney,

you also dont know if the chimney was properly inspected when the fire was installed.

 

[johnnyplumb]

Or, just forget about the chimney if the tenant has own fire fitted as as far as I am aware, legally there is no direct responsibility for landlord as is discussed in link above. (if you have contradicting info please post links) The tenant has their own responsibility to have their own appliance tested and this should be impressed on tenant by the landlord, therefore the chimney would be checked.

this tells you about landlords responsibilities [DLMURL="http://www.pkc.gov.uk/Housing/Private+housing/Private+landlords+-+advice+and+support/Landlord+Responsibilities.htm"]Landlord Responsibilities[/DLMURL]

read the bit about repairing standards

 

[GrahamM]

a landlords responsible for everything that he provides in a property, therefore he's responsible for the chimney,

you also dont know if the chimney was properly inspected when the fire was installed.

How do we know you are going to do their job right and do a F/F and spill?

this tells you about landlords responsibilities [DLMURL="http://www.pkc.gov.uk/Housing/Private+housing/Private+landlords+-+advice+and+support/Landlord+Responsibilities.htm"]Landlord Responsibilities[/DLMURL]

read the bit about repairing standards

Still nothing in here that I can see!

Now I am not saying that it should not be done, all I am saying is that it only states "It is also recommended to include all flues (e.g. chimneys) connected to gas appliances within your landlord's gas safety check, even where they do not serve appliances provided by the landlord."

There is nothing printed anywhere that states a landlord MUST ensure his chimney is inspected on a LGSC when it serves an appliance not owned owned by him!

It is down to the individual employed to carry out the LGSC and the landlord, how non-landlord owned appliances are dealt with.
And all non-landlord owned appliances should be included, but the landlords legal obligation is for appliances owned by him/her.

Unless you have any "MUST" or "LEGALLY OBLIGATED" terms to throw at me I rest my case!

 

[JAP&H]

Have come across a few (a very few mind) where landlords have had it written into tenancy agreement that any gas appliances owned by the tenant (normally but not exclusively cookers or fires) will be checked for safe operation on an annual basis.

Obviously the tenant has read and signed this on taking up occupancy, and therefore knows that should they 'upgrade' from the landlords basic cooker to something a little more upmarket then they will have to pay for its yearly safety check.

 

[GrahamM]

That would be all that is required.
Not a Solicitor, but I'm quite sure all landlords needs is write a clause in contract that states and gas appliance added by the tenant must be fitted by RGI and must be checked on an annual basis. The landlord should impress upon the tenant the importance of this.
He would be 100% covered in event of any unfortunate mishaps.
During your normal LGSC you carry out the obligatory visuals.
Job done.

 

[johnnyplumb]

How do we know you are going to do their job right and do a F/F and spill?


Still nothing in here that I can see!

Now I am not saying that it should not be done, all I am saying is that it only states "It is also recommended to include all flues (e.g. chimneys) connected to gas appliances within your landlord's gas safety check, even where they do not serve appliances provided by the landlord."

There is nothing printed anywhere that states a landlord MUST ensure his chimney is inspected on a LGSC when it serves an appliance not owned owned by him!

It is down to the individual employed to carry out the LGSC and the landlord, how non-landlord owned appliances are dealt with.
And all non-landlord owned appliances should be included, but the landlords legal obligation is for appliances owned by him/her.

Unless you have any "MUST" or "LEGALLY OBLIGATED" terms to throw at me I rest my case!

you need to read my landlord responsibilities link again [ the repair standards bit], it clearly places obligations on the landlord

here's the bit i'm talking about
A landlord has a duty to repair and maintain the property at the start of the tenancy and at all times during the tenancy, including a duty to make good any damage caused by carrying out this work
(Source - Housing (Scotland) Act 2006 S14:1-2)
Upon notification or awareness of a defect, the landlord must complete the work within a reasonable time
(Source - Housing (Scotland) Act 2006 S14:4)
A private rented property must meet the repairing standard as follows:

• The house is wind and water tight and in all other respects reasonably fit for human habitation
• The structure and exterior of the house (including drains, gutters and external pipes) are in a reasonable state of repair and in proper working order
• This installations in the house for the supply of water, gas and electricity and for sanitation, space heating and heating water are in a reasonable state of repair and in proper working order
• Any fixtures, fittings and appliances provided by the landlord under the tenancy are in a reasonable state of repair and are in proper working order

lets say the chimney was ok when the fire was installed, but 3 months later was leaking co and therefore in need of repair

who do you think would be held responsible ?

the above clearly holds the landlord responsible and therefore the gsr engineer that he uses.

 

[GrahamM]

Think you are off on a tangent here.
We are discussing Landlords safety checks and who has responsibility for checking safety etc., not who is responsible for repairs in property.

If chimney was corrupt I would expect fire to be obviously capped and that is that as far as we would be concerned. What happens next is for discussion between landlord and tenant.

 

[PETE 123]

appliances owned by the tenant are not covered;■■flues/chimneys ■■solely connected to an appliance owned by the tenant are not covered;
any appliances and flues serving ‘relevant premises’ (such as central heating ■■boilers not installed in tenants’ accommodation, but used to heat them) are covered. HSE INFO

 

[johnnyplumb]

Think you are off on a tangent here.
We are discussing Landlords safety checks and who has responsibility for checking safety etc., not who is responsible for repairs in property.

If chimney was corrupt I would expect fire to be obviously capped and that is that as far as we would be concerned. What happens next is for discussion between landlord and tenant.

read the link again & again & again, there's plenty info in there related to gas safety checks and who has the responsibility.

it's not written in bold capital letters with the words 'landlords are legally obligated to check all chimneys'
if that's what your looking for, your not gone to find it,
if you cant understand it, see a lawyer.

previously you said 'JUST FORGET ABOUT THE CHIMNEY', if you ignore the chimney when doing a L.L.S.C. how would you know if it was sound or not.

i've already given you a link that confirms that the landlord is responsible for his chimney in his property, so i'm not gonna go back over it again. how you interpret it, is up to you.:sad_smile:

 

[GrahamM]

read the link again & again & again, there's plenty info in there related to gas safety checks and who has the responsibility.

it's not written in bold capital letters with the words 'landlords are legally obligated to check all chimneys'
if that's what your looking for, your not gone to find it,
if you cant understand it, see a lawyer.

previously you said 'JUST FORGET ABOUT THE CHIMNEY', if you ignore the chimney when doing a L.L.S.C. how would you know if it was sound or not.

i've already given you a link that confirms that the landlord is responsible for his chimney in his property, so i'm not gonna go back over it again. how you interpret it, is up to you.:sad_smile:

Can't see how you can't see what I am reading here!
Read the extract in black and white bellow. It is an extract from an HSE publication titled "Landlord" to make it as simple as possible for the layman landlord or layengineer to understand:

Which gas equipment is covered?
The safety check and maintenance requirements generally apply to any gas appliance or flue installed in the ‘relevant premises’ except that:
appliances owned by the tenant are not covered;
flues/chimneys solely connected to an appliance owned by the tenant are not covered;

It is that simple! It is all there in the information if you read it thoroughly.
I will say it again. Not saying I agree with it entirely but the landlord has no direct responsibility for having a chimney that serves a tenant owned fire checked during his routine LGSC.

 

[Kayjsharp]

This task would undoubtedly require some help from fellow engineers. It is advisable to appoint those fellow engineers who have fires/cookers on their tickets.

 

[Koogatubac]

Update, got all tickets inc lpg and oil and hetas, this topic was 2/3 months ago. Why drag it back up?