Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response.

[Reza]

You certainly have to draw the line somewhere, i agree with you. For its many flaws and failings ACS is what we have and is better than nothing but to make a general statement that everyone who is ACS qualified and GSR'd is truly competent in what they do is nonsense. Competence in any trade or line of work does not solely come from the ability to read and answer a few questions no matter how good or bad you may be at doing the actual work.
I have no idea what your aspirations or final goals are on this but if you don't shout you will never be heard. Maybe you might push a few buttons with those in power, maybe you won't but if you never try you will never know.

Agreed maty, either ACS or GSRed doesn't truly explore competence, but that depends on people's definition of competence. I can only go by what the current system stipulates. COMPETENCE = GSRed = ACS Qualified. Do you want my aims and objective to all this! Have you seen the petition on line asking for reform and reassessment of the Regs?

 

[Reza]

If i am the gentleman you are referring to, I was gas registered probably before you were born (4 digit number)

No mate, I was referring to Masood's tutor, and I wasn't implying anything in a derogatory terms either buddy, I hope the sentiment is mutual though!

 

[tamz]

Have you seen the petition on line asking for reform and reassessment of the Regs?

No. Do you have a link?

 

[tamz]

No mate, I was referring to Masood's tutor, and I wasn't implying anything in a derogatory terms either buddy, I hope the sentiment is mutual though!

No offence taken. I actually agree with what you seem to be aiming at here. Whether or not you get the powers that be to sit up and listen is another thing.

 

[Reza]

No offence taken. I actually agree with what you seem to be aiming at here. Whether or not you get the powers that be to sit up and listen is another thing.

Buddy, positive things will only happen if you consider the glass as half full. Nothing ventured nothing gained! What really is there to loose! Now how does one upload an image here?

 

[Reza]

 

[Nostrum]

You see, if they actually had any idea about the certification process, this would immediately be dismissed as a chancer not doing his job right.

 

[tamz]

The black economy.
Above would be an instant gross misconduct dismissal if they were caught but it happens constantly all over the country.
The boiler warranty would still stand under statutory law (although the extended part may not) and there are many well known ways around the lack of a gas cert. They are paying the money and taking the gamble. Any one paying for a cash job or work on the side knows (unless they are totally stupid) that it is not legit. They may get a first class job or they may not. They pay the money and take the chancewith the probability of a first class job being very low.
It is wrong and shouldn't happen but for all the government complain about the black economy and how much they loose in taxes they know it serves other purposes and can never be stopped.
This is a customer driven thing. Everyone wants to save a few quid and some will regardless of the consequences so perhaps targeting the consumer and hitting them in the pocket would work best but this would require a change in the law so is unlikely to happen any time soon.

Btw i believe big gas will allow their employees to register work done for themselves or family members under their GSR number but perhaps one of the BG guys could confirm or deny this.

 

[Reza]

Who believes that employees of Gas companies who work under employers registration, should for a nominal fee and full written consent of their employer become GSRed in order to work for family, friends, friends of family, friends of friends, friends of friends of friends!...... Families of friends, families of family!......

 

[tamz]

It won't happen as it would be seen as a way to legitimise taking work from the employer.
Most firms will not allow personal registration for that reason.

 

[Reza]

It won't happen as it would be seen as a way to legitimise taking work from the employer.
Most firms will not allow personal registration for that reason.

Their primary contract lies with their employer, it's only ethical if they respect the terms of their contract. What would you do if an employee of yours poached your customer, all be it their mates and got cash for it! Similar to the cases we have all seen! Are we beginning to see how L56 could not just lead onto illegitimate work and I choose that word carefully, but it opens a narrative to being professionally unethical.

 

[tamz]

But the problem lies in finding ethical employees when there are bills to be paid and mouths to feed.
It is bad enough as it is now where there is a minor disincentive to doing (at least new installs) work on their own but doing that would make every employee essentially a free agent with nothing to stop them other than "ethics" and the slight chance the tax man may catch up. The same ethics that stop them robbing your pipe and scrapping it given half the chance.
It will never happen.

 

[Reza]

But the problem lies in finding ethical employees when there are bills to be paid and mouths to feed.
It is bad enough as it is now where there is a minor disincentive to doing (at least new installs) work on their own but doing that would make every employee essentially a free agent with nothing to stop them other than "ethics" and the slight chance the tax man may catch up. The same ethics that stop them robbing your pipe and scrapping it given half the chance.
It will never happen.

still, doesn't justify breaching your contract though. I hate the big corporation as much as anyone, but an employment agreement is still a valid document and legally binding. There are also lots of smaller firms who employ people! More to the point, it's unethical because I or you or another sole trader could have had that job. Instead, but now it's going to someone who is not declaring it, all be it is a competent as fitter.

 

[Derek Hardman]

If people dont earn enough in their regular job they should change jobs or cut their cloth accordingly, to do foreigners illegally is greedy and not too bright.

 

[Reza]

If people dont earn enough in their regular job they should change jobs or cut their cloth accordingly, to do foreigners illegally is greedy and not too bright.

Derek, how much an average competent gas fitter employee would earn in your opinion! Would you not say average £500 pw?

 

[Derek Hardman]

It varies massively, but given the timescale for the jobs, they should be very well paid, plus the bonus payments for extra works.

 

[tamz]

Ive yet to meet any tradesman who ever considered their contract when it came to feeding their family or paying their bills.
Are you an employer or do you work on your own?
Ii'm an employer and would not allow anyone who worked for me to hold their own registration. Why would they need it when they shouldn't be doing work outside their place of employment taking potential customers from me. It still goes on but there is a slight disincentive in that they can't register it but no way am i going to legitimise it for them and make it easy.
Your idea falls at the first hurdle and will never gain any backing.
Be careful what you wish for.

Derek
People never make enough money at their day job and will always make more if they can especially when they have a skill set that is in demand. It is the way of the world and if you are any different you are one of a rare breed.

The only way to stop gas work being done on the side is to target the consumer and hit them in the pocket if they knowingly employ an unregistered person to carry out regulated work.

 

[tamz]

Derek, how much an average competent gas fitter employee would earn in your opinion! Would you not say average £500 pw?

The official rate is £11.51/hr for a 37.5 hr week.
£435.08 at the top take home £341.60

Piece work varies by how fast or rough they are

Welcome to the real world.

I'm sorry the rate is £11.32/hr
£428.27 at the top take home £337.17 (with class D and industry pension contributions)

 

[Reza]

It varies massively, but given the timescale for the jobs, they should be very well paid, plus the bonus payments for extra works.

There will be sole traders who at times don't earn half that! My mate has gone working for local council, he starts 7:00 am and usually done by 3:00pm. He clears £600 pw after tax and all he does all day along is gas rating appliances! Without generalising, I would say the majority who do extra curriculum work is due to loos-end cash. Call it holiday money, *** money or beer money. For that reason most of these activities are either not entirely legal or in some cases, as its been mentioned, is darn illegal. The L56 creates the ground work for all this activity. If they get Gas Safe Registered, they would then have to register the boiler with GSR, and of course there is always a chance it gets picked up by the HMRC. Well the rest of us walk the walk, why can't they all!

 

[tamz]

Btw there is no legal requirement to register anything through gas safe. It is just easier and good customer relations to do it that way. The onus is on the consumer to register it with building control.

 

[Reg Man]

There is one thing we all agree on. You can not carry out gas work unless competent to do so. All GSR registration does is legitimises people employed to do gas work to give the customer assurance that they are safe. All the black market work is not right but does not necessarily make it unsafe. If manufacturer's did more using the guarantee stick that might be a step forward. The final solution is the customers responsibility to employ the right people for the right job. So the long term is education of the general public which is a big part of the GSR remit.

 

[Reza]

There is one thing we all agree on. You can not carry out gas work unless competent to do so. All GSR registration does is legitimises people employed to do gas work to give the customer assurance that they are safe. All the black market work is not right but does not necessarily make it unsafe. If manufacturer's did more using the guarantee stick that might be a step forward. The final solution is the customers responsibility to employ the right people for the right job. So the long term is education of the general public which is a big part of the GSR remit.

There are much truth in what you say. Implementation wise, some methods are more difficult than others, educating people I agree with, I'm chasing GSR constantly on that but I get a feeling there is much politics and scandals when Capita is brought into the equation. Even if you do educate people, there's are over 70 millions living in the UK, questions is will utilising the cost and resource to educate that number of people give a viable result! I am not sure if it will. Regulating engineers is another method which is pursued by HSE currently, we've always read the cases in gas engineers magazine, but is the result satisfactory! Over 250,000 illegals gas works but 50 successful prosecution! And most of them are GSRed guys! So you see, the only other option left is reform of the legislation. Under current regulation, neither GSR nor HSE will give satisfactory results, that's because their hands are tied by a flawed political set of rules. When you reform you make both friends and enemies just like in any other sector in industry, but as a long term sustainable solution reform is needed.

 

[Reza]

Look it's simple, I am not suggesting for a minute that being GSRed is be all and end all, I'm not even suggesting that only GSRed people are competent, what I am suggesting is that, putting the technical and safety aspect of our business aside, administratively, our industry is glued together and that glue is the regulator. You take the glue off, it then all falls apart. All our daily activities are tied together by a Gas Safe Registration number, we use it for issuing landlord records, to register an appliance, to call national grid for someone to come and change the governor, to issue a RIDDOR, to issue a warning note, and so on and so forth. You take the Gas Safe Registration number out, you suddenly have to bend a lot of rules. Rules based on which people are kept safe and businesses sovereign. It is for this reason that I consider the L56 as current or proposed contradictory and flawed.

 

[tamz]

We are, or i am, only putting across other opinions for the sake of argument that tbh are much less than the powers that be would consider in making judgements.

In principle i agree with what you are trying to do but you have to look at things from a bigger perspective than a one man band. The big employers opinions will always win as they have a bigger shout so if you are to go against them you must have a very strong argument that you can back up.

At the end of the day it is ALL about money.

 

[Reza]

We are, or i am, only putting across other opinions for the sake of argument that tbh are much less than the powers that be would consider in making judgements.

In principle i agree with what you are trying to do but you have to look at things from a bigger perspective than a one man band. The big employers opinions will always win as they have a bigger shout so if you are to go against them you must have a very strong argument that you can back up.

At the end of the day it is ALL about money.

True, but (a) in what ways does my argument take a stance against the big corporation! And (b) I wouldn't exactly underestimate the SMEs in this industry, over 80% of businesses in our line of work are either sole trades or small firms, maybe even a partnership! You know, to an extent, what I say isn't anything new, CORGI used to do a secondary card and I believe GSR has discussed it with the authorities at some level. It is ironic though isn't it that the very regulation that sets out the bar, also goes on to smash the bar to pieces!

 

[tamz]

1. Your argument will directly affect the big companies. Their widely held policy is no one employed by them can have their own registration number for the reasons i have stated before. If you have the legit registration number you will use it so you would have to think of some idea to still restrict that.
2. SME's have very little influence in what legislation is made. They may make up the majority of the registered companies but they employ far less than the big boys plus they don't, financially and otherwise, contribute to the industry and government bodies. It is the same in every field of employment.

You will have to shout very loud to be heard let alone listened to. So how do you make your voice heard?

 

[Derek Hardman]

The answer to that was in your statement Tamz, you get as many GSR members behind the cause, numbers count, and they make more noise!

 

[Reza]

tamz my friend, and the rest of those who think along the same path. Why do you keep selling yourselves short and go on underestimating your power! The reality is nothing more than what Derek Hardman just stated!

 

[Derek Hardman]

I have been thinking again!! (hold the sighs for a sec, lol), when you call manufacturers for tech advice, they ask for your GSR number, National grid also ask for your GSR number, the reason for this is to protect themselves from giving info out or advising joe public and joe public suing them when they misinterpret the advice (thats how I see it anyway), so, if we came across an awful installation and the customer tells where they were sold the boiler, and if they were advised about installation or illegal installer, surely GSR/HSE could take someone to task for that? I was given such information many years ago when you couldnt do much about it, made me think i should be asking more questions when I come across a bad one again?

 

[Reza]

If I was to be a trusted and respected member of this forum with pretty logos on the side of my name, and I suggested that it is perfectly adequate for a non Gas Safe Registered, all be it a competent Gas fitter, to work on Gas installation for friends, families and derivatives, then shouldn’t it occur to me that it is exactly for my Gas Safe Registration number why the admins of UKPF let me loose here in the first place! It is absolutely no different in the case of working on Gas installation without having that most crucial reference known as a Gas Safe Registration number. Without it everything falls apart. The entire administrative system is based on the Gas Safe Registration number. It is absolutely observed to stay in support of the regulation for if this was to be the case, non of us would be writing and reading comments right now! Or perhaps the admins could prove me wrong!

 

[Nostrum]

The problem is, even if you did manage to get the regulations re-written, the people who evade them will carry on doing so. The regulation isn't really the problem. T&e problem is there is no system in place to deter people from ignoring it. The customer is normally the one who loose out because they don't know any better, so the illegal or sub standard installer takes advantage of it.

No point having a punishment if you can't catch the culprits

 

[Reza]

The problem is, even if you did manage to get the regulations re-written, the people who evade them will carry on doing so. The regulation isn't really the problem. T&e problem is there is no system in place to deter people from ignoring it. The customer is normally the one who loose out because they don't know any better, so the illegal or sub standard installer takes advantage of it.

No point having a punishment if you can't catch the culprits

let's wait and see how this will enravell, but if what I'm calling for even gets rid of one rogue or illegal or substandard, that one case could have been the cause of this. Wouldn't it be worthed?
BBC News - Four injured in a house explosion in Nottinghamshire

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Ive yet to meet any tradesman who ever considered their contract when it came to feeding their family or paying their bills.
Are you an employer or do you work on your own?
Ii'm an employer and would not allow anyone who worked for me to hold their own registration. Why would they need it when they shouldn't be doing work outside their place of employment taking potential customers from me.

Interesting.
I am an employer too (small - just 5'2" - and a hand full of workers) I think what people do outside of their Mon-Fri 8 to 4 hours is up to them.
Also, being realistic people will do other work - even if it is something totally different (like night club bouncer - amazing what people do in spare time)!
Mr TP has always had own corgi in years gone by when he worked for big employers and so have other guys I've known.

There is the potential for conflict of interest - workers stealing your customers - but it doesn't happen much because people know they will lose their jobs.

I know the guys we've employed over the years have done their own work - but they have found their own customers not competed with us. Our locations & type of work could be relevant.

 

[Reza]

Interesting.
I am an employer too (small - just 5'2" - and a hand full of workers) I think what people do outside of their Mon-Fri 8 to 4 hours is up to them.
Also, being realistic people will do other work - even if it is something totally different (like night club bouncer - amazing what people do in spare time)!
Mr TP has always had own corgi in years gone by when he worked for big employers and so have other guys I've known.


There is the potential for conflict of interest - workers stealing your customers - but it doesn't happen much because people know they will lose their jobs.


I know the guys we've employed over the years have done their own work - but they have found their own customers not competed with us. Our locations & type of work could be relevant.

You are looking at this much from the business perspective, much of what we do on site and on a daily basis is centred around a Gas Safe Registration Number, why! Because right or wrong that's just the way the system is setup. If you decide to bypass it, you would have to bypass a lot of other things too! We've already had people suggesting it wouldn't be legally required to complete the benchmark! Frankly I find the sentiment behind that remark dangerous and ill thought! Your Gas Safe Registration number is why you can post comment on this very site. I am having real hard time comprehending that people can even suggest such proposal, particularly given that yet another Gas explosion has now happened in another of our country.

 

[Reg Man]

You may be asked your GSR number, from who ever, Nothing to stop people giving a false number or someone else's over the phone, because they are not check upon just noted, if that. Only people who may check are the smarter customers who may phone or go on line to check.