Not happy with with new unvented system, although it works fine. Shower pressure issue

[kash]

Old setup.
Vented system - indirect
x2 Cold water tank in the loft. x2 80L Hot water tanks, regular boiler and stuart turner 4bar twin shower pump for the master bedroom shower. Worked pretty good, although the tanks were manky and old. The shower though was epic and used to blast water out. The house was gutted for refurbishment so plumber advised to change the set up for a new unvented system, that would deliver mains water pressure throughout the house. which it does.

New set up
Kingspan 300L horizontal tank. No shower pump and just the regular boiler. It’s all installed correctly, signed off and actually works quite well. All the taps and showers get mains water pressure.

Problem
I got too used to the shower pump pressure. The showerhead we have is an XL rainwater shower head and used to love the water blasting out. Whilst the showers still ok, it's just ok and not amazing anymore. If the shower in the family bathroom is run, there's a slight drop in pressure which i was expecting, but this makes the shower experience even less enjoyable.

Is there a solution?
We can’t install the same shower pump on the mains as it would draw too much water from the rest of the house and stop the other taps working - and probably mess with neighbours too. Assume this would also stop things like toilets refilling and draw air once water supply is exhausted.

So my questions are..... What is the solution for me to have a dedicated water supply for the shower again, so that I can use the pump?
Can I install a smaller vented system in addition to the unvented system that I have? The plumbers going to have a think on the best way of achieving this and let me know a price, but thought I’d ask on here too.

I know it’s potentially an expensive addition... but it just depends on cost. The shower is absolutely ok as it is, but i know how good it was and just wanted to make it awesome again.

Are there any other solutions that can be used with the new unvented tank I have?

 

[steadyon]

If you have the space, you could consider installing an accumulator.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Is the main adequately sized to the Unvented, do you know what your water pressure? An Unvented will only be as good as your incoming supply and pipe sizes for pressure and flow rates. Do you know what pipe sizes are to your shower valve?

If all of the above are OK and correct then you could go down the route of an accumulator, however this is like the size of another Unvented cylinder so you would need the room for this.

 

[kash]

accumulator

Will google this now - I think the plumber mentioned this

Is the main adequately sized to the Unvented, do you know what your water pressure? An Unvented will only be as good as your incoming supply and pipe sizes for pressure and flow rates. Do you know what pipe sizes are to your shower valve?

If all of the above are OK and correct then you could go down the route of an accumulator, however this is like the size of another Unvented cylinder so you would need the room for this.

I believe so. If i remeber correctly, I think i have 12 or 15mm pipe to the shower. And flow rate in the kitchen tap was cira 12 -14L per min. It was decent. Don't quote me on these.

I think part of the issue is that the new tank, sits in the loft space ontop of the single story extension on the side of the house. The shower pipe then runs up vertically about 1.5-2 meters to the 2nd floor loft then horizontal again before it goe to the en suite shower. (so two story house, with 1 story extension - tank and boiler is in this roof space)

I have plenty of space here or in the 2nd story loft space where the cold water tanks used to be.

 

[SJB060685]

As EvilDr has said accumulators are large, they need to be sized correctly. The give about 50% of volume boosted pressure, so a 100 litre accumulator will only give about 50 litres of boosted pressure before it drops off and needs to fill again. Because of this working principle you would need a lot of space to install the correctly sized one as he mentioned above.

 

[kash]

As EvilDr has said accumulators are large, they need to be sized correctly. The give about 50% of volume boosted pressure, so a 100 litre accumulator will only give about 50 litres of boosted pressure before it drops off and needs to fill again. Because of this working principle you would need a lot of space to install the correctly sized one as he mentioned above.

Just reading online - maybe i'm misunderstanding but it says "A common misconception. Accumulators do not increase water pressure. They simply allow the system to work at its maximum pressure capability. Each hot water system has a standing pressure and a working pressure. Just as it sounds, “standing pressure” is the pressure that exists when no outlets are being used and the water is at rest. This pressure will drop to “working pressure” when taps or showers are being used. "

So if have this installed, will I be drawing hot water from the new unvented cylinder and the cold from this accumulator, all at mains pressure - and then the shower pump drawing water from both (its a twin feed pump for both hot and cold?)

 

[SJB060685]

Yes you are right. An accumulator does not increase dynamic pressure, it just maximizes it, sorry I should have worded it better. Yes they are installed on the cold mains, hot water will be drawn from the cylinder, which in turn fills and supplies from the cold main accumulator. They can be installed virtually anywhere within the property but must be sized correctly as I said. If its boosting all outlets, hot and cold then this will be a large accumulator. What did you say your incoming pressure and flow rates is to the property? As mentioned above size of pipework, both into and around the property has a big part in what you'll achieve at outlets.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Just reading online - maybe i'm misunderstanding but it says "A common misconception. Accumulators do not increase water pressure. They simply allow the system to work at its maximum pressure capability. Each hot water system has a standing pressure and a working pressure. Just as it sounds, “standing pressure” is the pressure that exists when no outlets are being used and the water is at rest. This pressure will drop to “working pressure” when taps or showers are being used. "

So if have this installed, will I be drawing hot water from the new unvented cylinder and the cold from this accumulator, all at mains pressure - and then the shower pump drawing water from both (its a twin feed pump for both hot and cold?)

Before considering any of that you need to check your static and dynamic water pressures, and flow rates (At a outside tap, kitchen tap and shower).

Other things to consider are whether dirt has got in the system when you've had the upgrade and whether the filters on the shower are possibly blocked...

A picture of your install might help too of the cylinder and components.

 

[kash]

Before considering any of that you need to check your static and dynamic water pressures, and flow rates (At a outside tap, kitchen tap and shower).

Other things to consider are whether dirt has got in the system when you've had the upgrade and whether the filters on the shower are possibly blocked...

A picture of your install might help too of the cylinder and components.

I'll take some pics tonight and try and do some measurements too.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Just for your info an unvented needs a min of 3.5 bar and 20 lpm

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Just for your info an unvented needs a min of 3.5 bar and 20 lpm

Whilst yes that's true for it's optimum operating performance an Unvented cylinder at lower pressures and lower flow rates than this will still deliver decent performance, much better than a combi boiler.

For instance our Static Pressure is 2.5bar, i've never actually got round to measure the dynamic. But at this we get 18lpm at the large showerheads, and can run two rain head showers at once without much decrease in performance - more than what we would out of a combi.

So yeah it'd be ideal to have 3.5bar and 20lpm, however I don't think it's always essential. Many places round us can't even top their boilers up to 1.5bar the pressure is that poor! - and yes I agree in that situation a Unvented is pointless.

 

[Scott_D]

Is the shower new or the same as before the work?

 

[Gasmk1]

Is the shower new or the same as before the work?

judging by write up same as before a rain shower head which to me as the name suggest should not be thundering out but like being under a rain shower i suspect with the pump it made it too powerful now
it probably showers as it was designed to

 

[Scott_D]

Could have filters that need cleaning

 

[kash]

Yes you are right. An accumulator does not increase dynamic pressure, it just maximizes it, sorry I should have worded it better. Yes they are installed on the cold mains, hot water will be drawn from the cylinder, which in turn fills and supplies from the cold main accumulator. They can be installed virtually anywhere within the property but must be sized correctly as I said. If its boosting all outlets, hot and cold then this will be a large accumulator. What did you say your incoming pressure and flow rates is to the property? As mentioned above size of pipework, both into and around the property has a big part in what you'll achieve at outlets.

I'd only use it on the shower outets, the others are fine. If I used an accumulator, would I still use my shower pump too?

judging by write up same as before a rain shower head which to me as the name suggest should not be thundering out but like being under a rain shower i suspect with the pump it made it too powerful now
it probably showers as it was designed to

It never thundered out as such, but it was good hard pressure. Now its just like a nomal tap and mediocure flow.

 

[SJB060685]

Now that you're on mains pressure hot water I thought you wouldn't use a shower pump?

 

[kash]

Now that you're on mains pressure hot water I thought you wouldn't use a shower pump?

as I mentioned at , pressure is fine on all taps and outlets, it's just slightly dissapointing on the shower. I meant its still decent but its not as forceful as it used to be with the previous pump, which is why i'm trying to find out how I can restore this level of pressure from the shower, as a pump cant be installed onto the incoming mains.

Ideally, all i want is my hot and cold on the shower only pumped/high pressure - everything else is perfect. looking for the most cost effective solution as I dont want to spend an arm and leg as the new setup has already cost a fair bit.

 

[SJB060685]

Yes sorry I misread your comment, I read it as you wanted to use a shower pump again. As you said above this is a no. Pumps can be put on incoming mains but must be done properly with a breaker tank. This is used when your incoming mains is below 1.5 bar or so. You need to remember your old shower pump probably generated more pressure than what your incoming mains is, which will obviously reduce the performance of the shower.

 

[kash]

Yes sorry I misread your comment, I read it as you wanted to use a shower pump again. As you said above this is a no. Pumps can be put on incoming mains but must be done properly with a breaker tank. This is used when your incoming mains is below 1.5 bar or so. You need to remember your old shower pump probably generated more pressure than what your incoming mains is, which will obviously reduce the performance of the shower.

Well I do want to use my pump again, if it can be permitted to do so, but I understands it will need its own tank to do so. watch this space.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Well I do want to use my pump again, if it can be permitted to do so, but I understands it will need its own tank to do so. watch this space.

To do that you'll need basically your old set up refitting just for that shower, then a way of heating a cylinder. If you're using a 4 bar pump, you'll be needing a decent size cylinder to supply this also....you're already in to a decent amount of cost to do that.

Seems madness to me. Are you not just being unrealistic about the performance of the shower? Surely if the cylinder has been fitted correctly and everything else is correct - Pipe sizing, filters clean, pressure, then you'll be getting more than a decent shower out of an Unvented HW system.

 

[kash]

To do that you'll need basically your old set up refitting just for that shower, then a way of heating a cylinder. If you're using a 4 bar pump, you'll be needing a decent size cylinder to supply this also....you're already in to a decent amount of cost to do that.

Seems madness to me. Are you not just being unrealistic about the performance of the shower? Surely if the cylinder has been fitted correctly and everything else is correct - Pipe sizing, filters clean, pressure, then you'll be getting more than a decent shower out of an Unvented HW system.

I almost agree with you here. He said its perfectly normal, but its just hard when you from from an awesome shower to an OK shower. as I said, perfectly happy with the other shower and taps, it's just think one becuase of the size of the head. As i've had high expections of the shower previously in comparision, i think im just a little underwhelmed. I might post clips from the performance before and after the install.

My plumber suggested somehting similar..... I was thinking if he does it for say £2-300 i'd probably do it, as at the moment, its acceptable with no other outlets on. I've not yet tested with with say a kitchen tap and the other shower, and the washing machine on and a toilet being flashed. I imagine it would drop a fair bit! I think 100L should do it as I had 2 80L tanks before and that was fine for a few showers.

 

[Steve Lindsey]

I almost agree with you here. He said its perfectly normal, but its just hard when you from from an awesome shower to an OK shower. as I said, perfectly happy with the other shower and taps, it's just think one becuase of the size of the head. As i've had high expections of the shower previously in comparision, i think im just a little underwhelmed. I might post clips from the performance before and after the install.

My plumber suggested somehting similar... I was thinking if he does it for say £2-300 i'd probably do it, as at the moment, its acceptable with no other outlets on. I've not yet tested with with say a kitchen tap and the other shower, and the washing machine on and a toilet being flashed. I imagine it would drop a fair bit! I think 100L should do it as I had 2 80L tanks before and that was fine for a few showers.

Have you tried changing your shower head?

 

[gpbeck]

Fit a smaller size shower head and save the planet.

 

[kash]

Fit a smaller size shower head and save the planet.

Useful response 🙂


For others- here are pics of the set up in the loft

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Useful response 🙂


For others- here are pics of the set up in the loft

Well seeming the materials to do that will cost more than £2-300 I don't think you've got any chance there.

Can you see the size of the pipe incoming to the combination valve? (The one next to the white vessel which is brass colour). With all the insulation it's difficult to see pipe sizes.

But first off, it doesn't appear they've done balanced cold supplies. Which won't help.

 

[kash]

Hey

Well seeming the materials to do that will cost more than £2-300 I don't think you've got any chance there.

Can you see the size of the pipe incoming to the combination valve? (The one next to the white vessel which is brass colour). With all the insulation it's difficult to see pipe sizes.

But first off, it doesn't appear they've done balanced cold supplies. Which won't help.

I’ll have a look again or ask the plumber when i can.

How can you tell it’s not balanced on the cold supplies?

 

[Gasmk1]

becasue he would have taken the balanced cold feeds fron then combination valve the rear tapping

 

[kash]

Bit of an update as I've properly used both showers today simultaniously for the 1st time since the new set up was installed.

-Main shower on with nothing else on - was ok.
-2nd shower went on - pressure dropped a little as expectd- but still just about ok but little weak
-Toilet flushed and tap opened - water stopped flowing in both showers. mrs was NOT HAPPY as she was taking a shower haha.

I cant deal with that.

Spoken to the plumber in regards to a solution.
Appears that an accumulator, whilst ideal, wont work as the size of tank needed just wont be fit sensibily or logistically.

The suggestion is to re-install a pair water storage tanks back into the level 2 loft, and if i understand correctly will work in the following way:

-Both showers will be fed via the twin shower pump from cold tank level 2 and hot unvented cylinder on level 1.
-incoming mains supply will top up the cold tanks on level 2 as they empty
-hot water will be pumped from hot unvented cylinder for everywhere else using a 2nd sinlge pump that we used before (I think this is what he said but i might be wrong about that.)

How does this solution sound? He said this will effectly work as its a breaker tank. Just need to work out costs. I know it will be a bit but I dont really have a choice.

A little dissapointed tbh as I kind of wish I had just stuck with the original set up which did what it needed to do and fairly well. All the research I did and people I spoke to though suggested that the new unvented system was the way forwards..... cant help but feel like it was money wasted at the moment.

I aslo asked what the flow rate was and it was circa 13-15L per minute at the mains

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What’s your mains pressure ?

nothing open ?

one tap open ?

 

[SJB060685]

Before I comment further can a pump be used for hot water outlets on an unvented cylinder @ShaunCorbs?

 

[Gasmk1]

this seems to point to your cold water main not being adequate

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

What your plumber is suggesting is incorrect. You can't pump out of an unvented cylinder, you cannot also pump the cold from the tank and then have the hot supplied from the unvented.

He clearly doesn't know what he's doing, you need to get someone else in who can advise you much better.

As @ShaunCorbs says when need to know you incoming pressures, which you've been asked for a few times yet haven't provided them. You need to know these before you make any decision on what route to take.

 

[kash]

What’s your mains pressure ?

nothing open ?

one tap open ?

I cant remeber if i'm honest and I don't have a guage. However, as i've mentioned before, pressure at the taps is perfectrly fine at the moment, when the showers are not on.
[automerge]1577373831[/automerge]

What your plumber is suggesting is incorrect. You can't pump out of an unvented cylinder, you cannot also pump the cold from the tank and then have the hot supplied from the unvented.

He clearly doesn't know what he's doing, you need to get someone else in who can advise you much better.

As @ShaunCorbs says when need to know you incoming pressures, which you've been asked for a few times yet haven't provided them. You need to know these before you make any decision on what route to take.

I will try to get these readings.

As for what he's suggesting, i've only wrote what I think he think he said - i could be wrong.

 

[Gasmk1]

pressure at the taps being fine doesnt mean you are getting the right flow to cope with 2 showers and all other serices toilets and basins

 

[SJB060685]

This is what I was going to say Pork Chop. Plumbing is not my thing but I always believed no pumps on unvented and certainly not mains hot hot and boosted cold, how would they be balanced? If at all. As we all said the incoming mains pressure and flow rates is the first thing you check before considering mains hot water.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Before I comment further can a pump be used for hot water outlets on an unvented cylinder @ShaunCorbs?

not for the outlet but you can pump the supply to it eg break tank and pump if pressure is an issue

but it sounds like flow is the problem but until we get some figures we can’t say

 

[kash]

What your plumber is suggesting is incorrect. You can't pump out of an unvented cylinder, you cannot also pump the cold from the tank and then have the hot supplied from the unvented.

He clearly doesn't know what he's doing, you need to get someone else in who can advise you much better.

As @ShaunCorbs says when need to know you incoming pressures, which you've been asked for a few times yet haven't provided them. You need to know these before you make any decision on what route to take.

He told me it was measured at 1.6bar before he started the work. Not sure what it is now - need to re-measure when he is next here.

 

[SJB060685]

1.6 bar is not good for unvented. As I said above, around that pressure you need a breaker tank and pumped mains with accumulator.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ok when he’s here next week get him to fill this out

Pressure static (no outlets open eg just the pressure gauge open) is _______ bar
Pressure dynamic (one additional outlet open) is ______ bar
Flow static (one outlet open) is ______ Lpm
Dynamic (two outlets open) is ______ Lpm

 

[kash]

1.6 bar is not good for unvented. As I said above, around that pressure you need a breaker tank and pumped mains with accumulator.

So his suggestion of 'making up' a breakter tank in loft level 2 is not an unsensible one?

In his defence he has not confirmed if this is what he is going to do but said he will look into it more for me and come up with the best solution based upon the space that I have.
[automerge]1577377492[/automerge]

Ok when he’s here next week get him to fill this out

Pressure static (no outlets open eg just the pressure gauge open)
Pressure dynamic (one additional outlet open)
Flow static (one outlet open)
Dynamic (two outlets open)

Sure - will do.

 

[SJB060685]

A breaker tank is installed on incoming mains to propert, it is pumped thereafter either buy a pump or negative head pump to an accumulator. Both breaker tank and accumulator need to be sized correctly and installed correctly. It's called a breaker tank to isolate house water from mains, preventing any back flow into street mains which could cause problems and harm others. What hes suggesting in the loft could be called a breaker tank but not in this sense. Google boosted mains and look up the above. 1.6 bar is nothing and like Shaun says you need to know static and dynamic pressure and flow. Your incoming mains may not be suited to your requirements and should of been considered when designing the system. Remember a larger incoming pipe will give greater flow rates.

 

[Scott_D]

What size and material is your incoming water main?

 

[kash]

A breaker tank is installed on incoming mains to propert, it is pumped thereafter either buy a pump or negative head pump to an accumulator. Both breaker tank and accumulator need to be sized correctly and installed correctly. It's called a breaker tank to isolate house water from mains, preventing any back flow into street mains which could cause problems and harm others. What hes suggesting in the loft could be called a breaker tank but not in this sense. Google boosted mains and look up the above. 1.6 bar is nothing and like Shaun says you need to know static and dynamic pressure and flow. Your incoming mains may not be suited to your requirements and should of been considered when designing the system. Remember a larger incoming pipe will give greater flow rates.

The I've read the manual and it says "Water supply An adequate and reliable mains water supply is essential to ensure Albion Ultrasteel, Ultrasteel Plus and Aerocyl cylinders deliver the quality and reliable performance you’d expect. We recommend a minimum supply pressure of 1.5 bar, with a flow rate of 25 litres/min. "

I defo don't have a flow rate of 25L per minute.

Just waiting to my guy to come back to me and will hopefully be able to get the readings requested.

Also, just for my understanding. Would we need a break tank AND accumulator, or one or the other?
I think he was saying that we would potentially install the tank on level 2 and pump this TO the unvented cylinder.

 

[SJB060685]

As I said plumbing is not my thing, my knowledge lies elsewhere in the industry. My understanding is you would use either an accumulator or a breaker tank, pump set and accumulator. The break tank is usually installed on the inlet to the property, away from areas of quiet interest due to pump noise and pumped thereafter to the dwelling outlets. You are sizing for both hot and cold pipework distribution, so the breaker tank will need to be sized correctly. This also provides a short fall should your incoming mains be subject to problems ie, work being done in the street. If pressure is ok (in your case borderline) then you could get away with just a suitably sized accumulator. With the pump set you are solely relying on it to provide the pressure and flow to the property, with the accumulator making use of the energy provided.
As I and others have said above, your incoming supply should have been the first thing to check when considering this type of system, quite often and what seems to be your case is the incoming mains to house will not be sufficient and upgrading is necessary, the bigger the supply line the better, pressure will be whatever it is by the provider but your flow rates will be much greater .

 

[kash]

As I said plumbing is not my thing, my knowledge lies elsewhere in the industry. My understanding is you would use either an accumulator or a breaker tank, pump set and accumulator. The break tank is usually installed on the inlet to the property, away from areas of quiet interest due to pump noise and pumped thereafter to the dwelling outlets. You are sizing for both hot and cold pipework distribution, so the breaker tank will need to be sized correctly. This also provides a short fall should your incoming mains be subject to problems ie, work being done in the street. If pressure is ok (in your case borderline) then you could get away with just a suitably sized accumulator. With the pump set you are solely relying on it to provide the pressure and flow to the property, with the accumulator making use of the energy provided.
As I and others have said above, your incoming supply should have been the first thing to check when considering this type of system, quite often and what seems to be your case is the incoming mains to house will not be sufficient and upgrading is necessary, the bigger the supply line the better, pressure will be whatever it is by the provider but your flow rates will be much greater .

I really appreciate all the advice you and eveyone else has given to do date. I'm no expert hence the reason I come on such forums. I like to try and understand as much as I can from non bias sources and not just rely on what 1 tradesman tells me.

In this instance, its obviously too late to go back - obviously these things should have been checked first. Whilst he did show me the flow rate and pressure, i never noted it down and I was told it was decent. However, looking at the manaul now I can see for myself that it probably isn't sufficient for the setup I now have; thus said, now need to find the best solution.

I feel like it's going to be a case of installing these tanks in the loft at the moment. Just hope it's not going to cost an arm and a leg to restore a decent shower and simultanious output in the house.

 

[SJB060685]

You did the right thing coming on this site, there is literally decades of experience between the users. Unfortunately like you said you're past the point of no return. Unfortunately again you have a couple choices, either pay lots more to upgrade incoming mains, add booster pumps, breaker tank and accumulator etc or pay to have an open vented system re installed with same layout as before to achieve the shower you desire, either way is likely to cost a fair amount. Unvented HW supply is a God send but as you've learnt the hard way it needs to be done properly and it appears your installer might not be as well informed as he suggests

 

[kash]

So this what he sent me in terms of the solution, based upon the space I have available (other than ripping out the new unvented tank)

I’ll ask him to take the pressure and flow readings before though.
..........
Installation of 3 x 25gallon tank in small loft to include supply of materials and tanks.

The tanks will be mains supplied and will give cold supply to the new unvented hot water cylinder.

These tanks will also supply cold feed to shower in ensuite and shower in main bathroom (which will be pumped by double pump allready on site, installed in small loft).

hot water will be pumped everywhere in the house by the other single pump installed in big loft (both pumps already on site and available from previous set up)

£730
......

 

[ShaunCorbs]

them pumps arnt suitable for boosting a whole house / what hes intending them for

 

[SJB060685]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is he suggesting piping the cold feed to unvented cylinder from these proposed new storage tanks in the loft?

 

[kash]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is he suggesting piping the cold feed to unvented cylinder from these proposed new storage tanks in the loft?

Yes i believe so....?

 

[SJB060685]

Then that wont be mains pressure anymore.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Then that wont be mains pressure anymore.

with a single imp shower pump

 

[SJB060685]

Ah I misread that. So he's intending to use a shower pump to boost HW supply to house? Strange

 

[kash]

Ah I misread that. So he's intending to use a shower pump to boost HW supply to house? Strange

I think this is how it was set up before (from the previous owner) i had the new tank installed. Any time the hot water was running, the pump used to kick in.

Even if it’s strange, it will work right?

Alternatively he may have meant that hot and cold for the showers will be then pumped, but everting else will be mains pressure.

I’ll ask him to draw up a little diagram too just so that I have it for my own future reference.

Also, if those pumps are not suitable, which ones would be? These are the pumps that were there before and they seemed to work pretty well, except for the noise element. I can live with the noise over flow/pressure though.

 

[SJB060685]

You'd have to ask Shaun or someone else who does plumbing work daily with regards to what pump is suitable for what you're suggesting because I honestly don't know. If your plumber is intending on keeping your unvented cylinder mains pressure and using tanks in loft for showers then he would also be installing a dedicated vented cylinder for the shower hot water, more money and parts and another zone for your CH system, unless it was direct heated through an immersion heater.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

SCALA2

SCALA2 is an integrated, self-priming, compact water booster pump. It is designed for perfect pressure inside the home. It’s quiet, easy to install, and maintains consistent pressure in all taps at all times.

uk.grundfos.com

ESYBOX MINI 3 | DAB Pumps

Esybox Mini 3 has a different appearance than any other booster set and is small and completely integrated. Once you install and use it, you realize that the real difference is in the comfort and performance. Esybox Mini 3 uses the most advanced DAB technologies to create constant pressure...

www.dabpumps.com

thats rated for constant use

 

[kash]

SCALA2

SCALA2 is an integrated, self-priming, compact water booster pump. It is designed for perfect pressure inside the home. It’s quiet, easy to install, and maintains consistent pressure in all taps at all times.

uk.grundfos.com

ESYBOX MINI 3 | DAB Pumps

Esybox Mini 3 has a different appearance than any other booster set and is small and completely integrated. Once you install and use it, you realize that the real difference is in the comfort and performance. Esybox Mini 3 uses the most advanced DAB technologies to create constant pressure...

www.dabpumps.com

thats rated for constant use

Thanks buddy

I’ll double check the other pump that I have to see what type of pump it is. If it is just a normal shower pump would it be the end of the world as a temp solution, given the cost factor?

 

[Chuck]

Seems like a bit of a Heath Robinson solution to me. Is upgrading the supply pipe to something correctly sized out of the question?

 

[kash]

Seems like a bit of a Heath Robinson solution to me. Is upgrading the supply pipe to something correctly sized out of the question?

Unfortunately yes. All refurbishment is now complete. As I had moved out the property, the problem was not something discovered until we moved back in.

On initial inspection all seemed ok as it was just viewed with one shower / tap running. It was only in the ‘real world’ it became an an issue.

It’s going to have to be a similar solution to what’s listed above at this point. 😣
[automerge]1577694115[/automerge]
I've quickly drawn up 3 versions of what the set up could/would be to confirm my understanding. I think it's the 1st one (su1) based on what he wrote, but drawn up another 2 set ups. I've asked him to confirm or correct....

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Non of them are correct let’s see what he says

also need them figures ?

 

[kash]

Non of them are correct let’s see what he says

he's just come back to me suggesting that this set up will be the one he intends to use.

What yould your suggestion be if none of them are correct?
updated diagram below.

I have looked at the Grundfos Scala2 pump you sent the link to. If I do get this, would it go BEFORE the unvented cylinder and FROM the water talnk in the loft.

Shaun - any chance of a quick chat?
[automerge]1577702731[/automerge]

Non of them are correct let’s see what he says

also need them figures ?

I'll get those figures thursday.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You can’t pump from the outlet of the unvented cylinder (this would concern me he thinks he can do this) you sure he’s g3 registered?

would go water tanks
Pump
Cold supply to the Unvented cylinder
Cold Balanced supply to the bathrooms

 

[SJB060685]

You can’t pump from the outlet of the unvented cylinder (this would concern me he thinks he can do this) you sure he’s g3 registered?

would go water tanks
Pump
Cold supply to the Unvented cylinder
Cold Balanced supply to the bathrooms

I think his plumber is suggesting using the unvented cylinder as vented now Shaun!?

 

[kash]

You can’t pump from the outlet of the unvented cylinder (this would concern me he thinks he can do this) you sure he’s g3 registered?

would go water tanks
Pump
Cold supply to the Unvented cylinder
Cold Balanced supply to the bathrooms

Really appreciate the feedback and help - I don't want to waste any more money and time.

I'm going to show this thread to him later.

Someone actually came out to check his work and a NAPIT certificate was issued?

Is the now attached what your suggesting based upon your last comment (i ask as not sure what the 'balanced' cold bit refers to)

These are the tanks he is supplying: Polytank Cold Water Tank 25gallon (UK) 690 x 515 x 520mm - https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/polytank-cold-water-tank-25gallon-uk-690-x-515-x-520mm/10500

The file can be edited from think link via draw.io if anyone wishes to edit?

Google Drive: Sign-in

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Will draw something up later

 

[kash]

Will draw something up later

Thank you. He's supposed to be coming to do the work thursday so trying to get the info I need before then to ensure we have the best set up/solution.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

like this would be the only way i would do it

need to know your supply so can work out if the tanks are enough eg 70l

 

[SJB060685]

So the pump would go on cold inlet to cylinder and pump through it to HW outlets Shaun?

 

[kash]

like this would be the only way i would do it

need to know your supply so can work out if the tanks are enough eg 70l

Thanks a million.

I think that all makes sense to me- apart from the unvented control block. What is that/how does it it work? Is this another unit device- rough cost?

And I see now shower pumps here- is there any way I could use this instead of the Grundfos pump as it’s at least another £400 ontop or the £700 he’s quoted me to do this week work- ontop of the £16-700 ive already paid.

Will show this to my guy and see what he thinks.

Can’t thank you enough for your input
[automerge]1577748044[/automerge]

like this would be the only way i would do it

need to know your supply so can work out if the tanks are enough eg 70l

Also, my unvented tank is 300L So think the 3 25gallon tanks = 340ish L? Should be enough?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So the pump would go on cold inlet to cylinder and pump through it to HW outlets Shaun?

yes and being fed via the tanks so its boosted upto what every you set the pumps at then reduced down at the control block
[automerge]1577751455[/automerge]

Thanks a million.

I think that all makes sense to me- apart from the unvented control block. What is that/how does it it work? Is this another unit device- rough cost?

And I see now shower pumps here- is there any way I could use this instead of the Grundfos pump as it’s at least another £400 ontop or the £700 he’s quoted me to do this week work- ontop of the £16-700 ive already paid.

Will show this to my guy and see what he thinks.

Can’t thank you enough for your input
[automerge]1577748044[/automerge]



Also, my unvented tank is 300L So think the 3 25gallon tanks = 340ish L? Should be enough?

sorry thought your tanks were in Litres 😀 should be enough but depends on your mains flow rate dynamic

also the control block he should know what this is and its already fitted

tbh you shouldnt have to pay anything as its his mistake not checking things first and good enough

 

[kash]

yes and being fed via the tanks so its boosted upto what every you set the pumps at then reduced down at the control block
[automerge]1577751455[/automerge]


sorry thought your tanks were in Litres 😀 should be enough but depends on your mains flow rate dynamic

also the control block he should know what this is and its already fitted

tbh you shouldnt have to pay anything as its his mistake not checking things first and good enough

Whilst I agree with you, I don’t know of any trades person that I’ve come across yet that would swallow that much material and labour (relative to be size of the job). He’s already been paid for the job so I can’t even challenge him with payment. He did agree to charge me minimum labour for this change though. Getting someone new in would also cost me and then there’s finding someone willing enough with the knowledge.

If you’re able to clarify about the use of the shower pump I think this should be enough info to go back to him with? Hopefully I can use one of my existing pumps if I can.

Am I right in understanding that with the setup you’ve proposed, the pressure at the showers would now just be at whatever the output of the chosen pump is? I was very happy with the previous setup and the output at the showers which came straight from the pump (just wondered if I’d still need the shower pumps with your set up)

He’s now booked the job in for Monday as he he didn’t want to commit to 1 day on Thursday and I can’t do Friday or this weekend.
[automerge]1577780048[/automerge]
I guess also what I'm trying to understand is, what is the difference between a shower pump and the pumps you've recommended.
[automerge]1577784326[/automerge]
OK. So i've spoken with the plumber.

@ShaunCorbs he agrees that your set up whilst better and ideal, unfortunatly won't work in my situation, as apparenty it means more piping configuration changes and breaking a wall and some ceilings (as I have the 1st floor loft where there current cylinder is, and the 2nd floor loft where the water tanks would be). Now there is no way i'm going to start ripping things open and doing all of that, as he said he could do it, but the additional labour and hardware costs would be substantially more. And the house has just been finished and decorated. Again, i'm just taking his word on this.

He became slightly frustrated and said that he could easily walk away from the job, but he's confident that the pressure and flow rates were adequate at the mains before he took on the job and he will show me. He's said he's fairly certain that my water softer is responsible for much of the drop in flow/pressure too but we will test this next week. He said if the flow rate was more than 15L at the mains, then it's just a case of me not being happy as I was used to the previous shower pump set up.

I asked about pumping out of an unvented cylinder - he said that effectivly the new unvented cylinder would become vented so this wouldnt be a problem. So I dont think I have any choice but to go with his proposed solution.

On another note, if the tank is no longer 'unvented', would it still need the annual servicing? I've just signed up to an annal service plan with kingspan for the warranty purposes, so would this be a waste of money? They are supposed to be coming on friday to inspect in insulation. Do you think it's worth postponing this until AFTER he has done all the changes or just cancel it all together?

 

[John.g]

Is su1-revised his final proposal?, it may be just the way he has drawn it but its showing two (double) booster pumps in series to shower1 and shower2, is this correct?.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Basically what he's proposing is incorrect and it would need to be done the way @ShaunCorbs is suggesting if you wanted to go down that route.

I can't believe your even proceeding with all of this before fully assessing the situation. You've not got any static/dynamic water pressure figures, pipe sizing from your water main to the cylinder combination valve or flow rates. It could be even something as simple as the filter on the shower or combination valve is blocked (Which has happened before) All these things are relatively simple to check.

In relation to Kingspan - they'll just invalidate your warranty once your plumber has had a butcher at what he's proposing! The cylinder won't become just a 'vented' cylinder because he's stuck a breaker tank on it.

 

[kash]

No, I 've just realised this is a mistake on my behlaf on the way i've drawn it. there are NOT two double pumps in series.

The revised final proposal that his is suggesting (with my error corrected) is now attached
[automerge]1577788869[/automerge]

Basically what he's proposing is incorrect and it would need to be done the way @ShaunCorbs is suggesting if you wanted to go down that route.

I can't believe your even proceeding with all of this before fully assessing the situation. You've not got any static/dynamic water pressure figures, pipe sizing from your water main to the cylinder combination valve or flow rates. It could be even something as simple as the filter on the shower or combination valve is blocked (Which has happened before) All these things are relatively simple to check.

In relation to Kingspan - they'll just invalidate your warranty once your plumber has had a butcher at what he's proposing! The cylinder won't become just a 'vented' cylinder because he's stuck a breaker tank on it.

The filters have all been checked and they are clear. It's defo nothing being blocked.
I can measure flow rates but not the pressures and I dont have the tools or knowhow. I will ge these as soon as I can.

I'm going to let him digest this thread and proposal. I'm hoping there's a way we can make shauns proposal work somehow.
[automerge]1577790222[/automerge]
OK UPDATE

We've come up with a way to actually put the x3 tanks that were going to go in the 2nd floor loft into the 1st floor loft. This means we can actually just put in 1 bigger tank as opposed to 3 smaller tanks.

This way we can actually do it properly and maintain the vented system.

He's going to re-spec up and provide me an updated quote later.
[automerge]1577790978[/automerge]

SCALA2

SCALA2 is an integrated, self-priming, compact water booster pump. It is designed for perfect pressure inside the home. It’s quiet, easy to install, and maintains consistent pressure in all taps at all times.

uk.grundfos.com

ESYBOX MINI 3 | DAB Pumps

Esybox Mini 3 has a different appearance than any other booster set and is small and completely integrated. Once you install and use it, you realize that the real difference is in the comfort and performance. Esybox Mini 3 uses the most advanced DAB technologies to create constant pressure...

www.dabpumps.com

thats rated for constant use

Hi @ShaunCorbs - Are there any other recommendedations for a pump?

Based on what i'm seeing, we can use the shower pump right?
Are there differences with the booster pumps with a tank? Is the Grundfoss one you listed the same thing?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Warning Long Long Post

Not for for purpose / design spec eg doesn’t meet minimum spec for unvented manufacturers instructions will list these / g3 also

Shower pumps aren’t rated for constant use you will see listed on them 5/25 or they will say 5 mins use 25 mins rest / cool down etc

As for pressure would be either control group spec eg 3.5 bar or what ever you set the pump at if lower

rated for constant use and suitable for the design spec

sorry don’t understand how it’s more as you still need to get the pipe work two and from the tanks etc

they should have about the same pipe work supply side eg from the tanks

also if your shower pump are positive pressure models and not universal/ negative I’m doubtful there will be enough head pressure to activate them

Bypass the softener and find out or measure the flow before but remember you will need a minimum of 25lpm for an unvented some manufacturers recommend no lower than 20lpm but I believe g3 regs are 25lpm and 3.5 bar

if there not well he’s not done his job hence the problems with not much flow when more than one outlet is used he should of warned you in the beginning you might need x to bring it up to your desired requirements

Yes everything that’s on the install now would get removed except the cylinder eg expansion vessels control group etc

No wouldn’t need inspections / servicing yearly but I wouldn’t count on warranty being valid either as your not using the cylinder as it’s designed for eg mains pressure

also just going back to the pump (shower) there’s no delicate shower pump feed on them so you could start running with dirty water eg air mixed

as for moving the tank to the same room as the cylinder this isn’t going to be good unless you have Universal/neg pumps as there isn’t enough head

you would need a min of 7-8m from the bottom of the tank to the pump for positive

 

[kash]

Warning Long Long Post

Not for for purpose / design spec eg doesn’t meet minimum spec for unvented manufacturers instructions will list these / g3 also

Shower pumps aren’t rated for constant use you will see listed on them 5/25 or they will say 5 mins use 25 mins rest / cool down etc

As for pressure would be either control group spec eg 3.5 bar or what ever you set the pump at if lower

rated for constant use and suitable for the design spec

sorry don’t understand how it’s more as you still need to get the pipe work two and from the tanks etc

they should have about the same pipe work supply side eg from the tanks

also if your shower pump are positive pressure models and not universal/ negative I’m doubtful there will be enough head pressure to activate them

Bypass the softener and find out or measure the flow before but remember you will need a minimum of 25lpm for an unvented some manufacturers recommend no lower than 20lpm but I believe g3 regs are 25lpm and 3.5 bar

if there not well he’s not done his job hence the problems with not much flow when more than one outlet is used he should of warned you in the beginning you might need x to bring it up to your desired requirements

Yes everything that’s on the install now would get removed except the cylinder eg expansion vessels control group etc

No wouldn’t need inspections / servicing yearly but I wouldn’t count on warranty being valid either as your not using the cylinder as it’s designed for eg mains pressure

also just going back to the pump (shower) there’s no delicate shower pump feed on them so you could start running with dirty water eg air mixed

as for moving the tank to the same room as the cylinder this isn’t going to be good unless you have Universal/neg pumps as there isn’t enough head

you would need a min of 7-8m from the bottom of the tank to the pump for positive

Once again, thank you for your response.

The good news is, that he has agreed Install as per your proposed solution.

I have ordered the Grundfos scala2 pump too. I hope it is a decent pump and have gone on your recommendation alone.

He isn’t going to charge me more than he has already quoted (£700), but I did have to buy the new pump myself at circa £400

As for the tanks, I think we are still proposing to put them in the same loft space if possible to make install easier. Will this still be an issue when using the Grundfos scale 2 pump? Or should I push for these to go into the 2nd floor loft?

When I get the measurements requested- I will call him out on this as I’m fairly certain it’s less than the requirements you stated. Obviously as a consumer, I wasn’t to know this. I just read that it was better all round but there wasn’t too much talk or the required required flows and pressures when doing high level research.

He told me the pressure and flow that I have would be ok for most people so I went with it. If I had known; we wouldn’t be in this position now: but lesson learned.

So all in all- it’s circa another £1100 to sort the problem, but the vented system will be maintained and used in its intended manner.

I’m hoping to recover a little cash by selling the existing pumps on eBay. Infact, the Stuart turner one which retails at £388 on plumbnation already has a bid for £75 - and it still has 2 years warranty left (if anyone’s interested, let me know)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Good to hear

You can fit them to your spec aslong as the pump isn’t above the tanks

It will be listed in the manufacturers instructions if you have them for the unvented cylinder

as for pump at 3.5 bar your looking around 40lpm output from the pump

my set up will need all the unvented stuff to stay as I’m sure you already understand

let us know how you get on / anymore questions etc

 

[kash]

Good to hear

You can fit them to your spec aslong as the pump isn’t above the tanks

It will be listed in the manufacturers instructions if you have them for the unvented cylinder

as for pump at 3.5 bar your looking around 40lpm output from the pump

my set up will need all the unvented stuff to stay as I’m sure you already understand

let us know how you get on / anymore questions etc

Thanks.

No the pump will certainly not be above the tanks (although I’ve just seen the manual and it seems it has a well suction mode - not that it matters in this case). It will be on the same level or below the tanks. Those figures sound promising for the shower.

On a side note: I also just opened every cold tap in the house (not including any showers) and found that the tap outlet furtherst away wouldn’t even output any supply when all the others were open.

As I closed other outlets, supply gradually came back as expected. The main kitchen tap remained acceptable throughout, but it would as it’s is the 1st outlet in the chain.

The input from you and everyone else has been invaluable so far- and a reason why I love forums (that give sensible responses).

I will certain provide updates as and when. I just hope that it all goes to plan and should be a fairly simple install going forwards.

 

[gpbeck]

At the tap with no flow the pressure would be zero (or worse!) so I hope that is upstairs. If its 5 m above kitchen tap you can be sure the dynamic pressure is less than 0.5Bar at the kitchen tap.

What is the flow from kitchen tap only, with softener, and with softener bypassed? All you need is a bucket and a timer to measure this now and it is VITAL information. Maybe a new mains supply pipe wouldn't cost much more than your plans if you can dig a trench.

 

[kash]

Update

So he came and did the work. I asked him to take measurements and we saw the below. I didn't take all the ones requested as he wasnt intirely in mood to faf about, and not sure how much difference it would have made given that he was on site to do the job anyway.

Direct from mains
Flow rate: 24L per min
Pressure: 2.4 bar
Flow rate AFTER the water softner: 14L per min
Mains incoming pipe: 15mm > this extended into loft space then converted into 22mm into the unvented tank

So it seems that the water softner (water2buy W2B200) was responsbile for a lot of flow / pressure loss. After testing and discussing, it was case of either removing the water softner and wasting £350 + the labour i paid to fit and gain better flow; but still not the amazing shower pressure that I was used to, and still have potential issues when mutiple outlets open, or, go ahead and install the tank and pump anyway and elminate any issues pre-emptivley.

I opted for the later, as this way, i'd have a 300L store of softened hot AND cold water and wouldnt have to worry about loss of pressure with multiple outlets open. It was an expensive solution / addition, but I think i'm happy with it. I need to actually use everything properly in the real world, but from what I played with for about 5 minutes, It seemed like I had both showers pumped (awesome pressure), and every outlet open with decent flow (i'll confirm this again when I have more time to go around and open everything and flush all the toilets at once. Had I never had the water softener installed, i do question If I would have just settled with the output but.... it is what it is and its done now.

I notice that I hear the pump run for a minute or two each time the hot outlet was open (I think as it was refilling the hot unvented tank), but the pump is pretty quiet and it seems like a small price to pay for the solution. Obviously I expect the pump to run for longer when showering, but again, its pretty damn quiet so it's not so bad.

Here's a few pics of the install. He ran out of 15mm pipe lagging but i'm picking some up after work and i'll do this myself as its a 10 minute job. I've got Kingspan coming in to inspect the unvented tank install still on Friday to validate the warranty - so i'm hoping everything is ok and that the set up I now have is up to scratch.

1 thing he did moan about was that online or in the manual i think it said that it was a 3/4 inch fitting but it was actually a 1inch fitting (or the other way around - not sure) - so he had to make up an adaptor.

Thanks again @ShaunCorbs

I'll let you know how things go.

Happy to hear any comments, questions or feedback from what you can see in the pictures.
[automerge]1578410052[/automerge]

At the tap with no flow the pressure would be zero (or worse!) so I hope that is upstairs. If its 5 m above kitchen tap you can be sure the dynamic pressure is less than 0.5Bar at the kitchen tap.

What is the flow from kitchen tap only, with softener, and with softener bypassed? All you need is a bucket and a timer to measure this now and it is VITAL information. Maybe a new mains supply pipe wouldn't cost much more than your plans if you can dig a trench.

Digging a trench wasnt an option unfortanatly.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Water Softeners | Culligan Harvey

UK's #1 water softener! Easy to install at home ➤ 90-day money back ➤ Reduce water bills with our water softeners. Check our softeners line

www.harveywatersofteners.co.uk

High flow rate up to 55lpm

 

[kash]

Water Softeners | Culligan Harvey

UK's #1 water softener! Easy to install at home ➤ 90-day money back ➤ Reduce water bills with our water softeners. Check our softeners line

www.harveywatersofteners.co.uk

High flow rate up to 55lpm

Sorry - not sure what you mean?

 

[SJB060685]

Sorry - not sure what you mean?

I assume hes posted a link to a water softener that provides better flow rates than your existing

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sorry - not sure what you mean?

I’m recommending harvys if you do change your water softener later on

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

That plumbing certainly looks interesting......glad it all works!

But from what you've said your flow rates entering the house are fine. If it had been fitted with a 22mm main up to the cylinder and a better softener then i'm sure you wouldn't have had any issues with the standard set up.

 

[Scott_D]

does the plumber know about this thread?

 

[gmartine]

Blimey, didn't anybody suggest changing the shower head?

 

[kash]

I assume hes posted a link to a water softener that provides better flow rates than your existing

Ah I missed that, as i was looking quickly on my phone.

I’m recommending harvys if you do change your water softener later on

I did actually have a quote from them - but it was over £800 for their system. However, I never new about or considered the flow rate problems. I assume it was whatever went in, is what came out. The water2buy one didn't mention anything about this on the product page or in the spec's as far as I am aware. Also, I purchased the kit in september so its way past its return period. Not that I need to now, but I will defo look at this factor for a future unit when required.

That plumbing certainly looks interesting....glad it all works!

But from what you've said your flow rates entering the house are fine. If it had been fitted with a 22mm main up to the cylinder and a better softener then i'm sure you wouldn't have had any issues with the standard set up.

Haha - interesting in a good or bad way? In the plumbers defence, we was working in a pretty restricted area with hardly any head room so running the pipework couldn't have been easy for anyone. I agree with your statement about the pipe size and softener though. Thus said, it was too late to do any of that, and digging up the road and driveway at this stage wasn't an option, or was it before. I now know for next time. Lesson learned the hard way i guess. But hey, at least i now have the output that I wanted (thanks to you all tbh, especially shaun).

does the plumber know about this thread?

He knows i've been researching online - but not this particular thread. I am disappointed that he didn't propose these solutions himself, or warn me of the possible issues before we had everything installed. It seems to have been a case of 'curing' issue rather then preventing them.

Whilst we didn't want to lose the water softer, if he had proved to me that it was the cause of the issue, BEFORE we agreed to do all the additional work, i would have felt less bitter about it.

He quoted towards the end - "you've got all the answers, i'm just the muscle". Almost felt like i've had to tell him how to do his job in some ways. And he wasn't particularly cheap either.

Blimey, didn't anybody suggest changing the shower head?

Ha - I wish is was that simple. It's not just a simple hand held shower head. It's a large rainhead and waterfall outlet shower from porcelanosa which cost me just over a grand. I think I added some pic's in a previous post.

I've had a shower this evening and it's probably the best shower i've had yet - feels slightly better than what it was with the stuart turner monsoon pump (or maybe it's just in my head - but an amazing shower experience either way).

 

[kash]

Kingspan came out this morning to inspect the installation and they said the installation had been done to a good standard and there were no problems with the new set up. They would be happy to honour the warranty and commence the service plan.

Only question I have is.... the hot water thermostat was set at 65degrees before. The engineer said this was probably be a bit over kill the water would be quite hot to be able to touch and not so energy efficient. He set this to 55degrees. assume this is ok to do?

 

[SJB060685]

Kingspan came out this morning to inspect the installation and they said the installation had been done to a good standard and there were no problems with the new set up. They would be happy to honour the warranty and commence the service plan.

Only question I have is.. the hot water thermostat was set at 65degrees before. The engineer said this was probably be a bit over kill the water would be quite hot to be able to touch and not so energy efficient. He set this to 55degrees. assume this is ok to do?

Stored HW should be heated to 60°c to kill off any legionnella bacteria.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

As above needs to be coming out of the taps / stored at 60dc

 

[Chuck]

Only question I have is.. the hot water thermostat was set at 65degrees before. The engineer said this was probably be a bit over kill the water would be quite hot to be able to touch and not so energy efficient. He set this to 55degrees. assume this is ok to do?

Like every decision that trades off risks (salmonella vs scalding) there is no right answer. The consensus in the UK seems to be that 60°C is the sweet spot. The heat losses from a modern tank are so low anyway the savings are barely worth considering.

 

[kash]

Like every decision that trades off risks (salmonella vs scalding) there is no right answer. The consensus in the UK seems to be that 60°C is the sweet spot. The heat losses from a modern tank are so low anyway the savings are barely worth considering.

He did say this too. He said as the water is constanly flowing and in use the risk is super low. It would be more of an issue in static/stagnent water for long periods of time with no use.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Happy with your shower experience now and that’s good of Kingspan

 

[kash]

Temp now adjusted to 60 degrees as per recommendations. Thanks all

@ShaunCorbs yes- shower is back to being amazing. Water has solid powerful output and plentiful. I’m back to taking longer showers 😀

Good of Kingspan yes- naturally there’s cost involved but it’s all within the service plan.

I’ll let them service it for the next two years at least as they cover all parts and labour within that time... then after that I’ll see how much a service is from an independent.

If it’s similar or not much more will just let Kingspan do the service as I get to spread the cost