Part L zoning issues

[mattyp]

For the last 6 months i have mainly been repairing and exchanging old boilers for new,then last week was asked to quote to rip out a warm air system and fit a nice new combi and 5 rads . As this is classed as a new install i thought id better brush up on the new Oct part l regs . It states any new system must have a minimum of two heating zones unless the building is open plan . Now this quote is for a 1 bed tiny flat with concrete floors ,so you are telling me i have got to run double the amount of pipes around the walls for these two zones [ living & sleeping ]..... what a joke . I was convinced it was only zoned if the floor areas were over a certain size ,or am i reading it wrong ? I see you can get individual programed trvs now but they are very pricey !
Just wondered how eveybody was finding this nice new prob ? 😀

 

[dontknowitall]

No idea what you've found!

You'll be fine with a room stat, 4 TRVs and programmer controlling central heating (assuming the boiler has a pump for the central heating). The combi will produce hot water on command and keep a store permanently.

 

[mattyp]

http://www.idhee.org.uk/TACMAGuide.pdf

 

[dontknowitall]

That document says ...

These regulations apply to all dwellings including "houses in multiple occupation" (HMOs) – for example bedsits – which are dwellings shared by several people who are not members of the same family but who share a kitchen or WC. They do not apply to a "room for residential purposes", which is defined as "a room or suite of rooms which is not a dwelling-house or flat and which is used by one or more persons to live and sleep in, including rooms in hotels, hostels, boarding houses, halls of residence and residential homes."

 

[mattyp]

Got to be honest still struggling to understand what they mean by that !! Any chance of an example of what it means ?

 

[doitmyself]

http://www.idhee.org.uk/TACMAGuide.pdf

That document is wrong! It says that you "must" have two zones, but the regulations only say you "should" have two zones. Under 150m² you only need separate temperature control in the zones. I cannot see why this cannot be achieved by having a wall thermostat in the living zone and TRVs on the rads in the bedroom etc "zones".

 

[Plucky]

Only if floor area is over 150sq metres must you zone off. If less then Roomstat and TRV's are good enough

 

[obseen16]

150 sq meters what size house (on average) would that cover. i.e 1 bed granny flat, 2 up 2 down. etc,

 

[tamz]

150m2 would be about the size of a fairly large 4 bed house. Think of the area as a bungalow 10 m wide 15m long. Pretty big house.

 

[obseen16]

150m2 would be about the size of a fairly large 4 bed house. Think of the area as a bungalow 10 m wide 15m long. Pretty big house.

yeah fair point there tamz

 

[dontknowitall]

150m2 is large?

???

My house is 200m2 and we think it's small!!

 

[dan_merkel@msn.]

All new installations have to be zoned:

​

New for 2010
[FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]- All new systems in dwellings that aren’t open plan must have at least two heating zones, each controlled by a thermostat and zone valve. In addition, all radiators must have Thermostatic Radiator Valves (TRVs) fitted except those in rooms with a room thermostat and those in bathrooms.
- When replacing a boiler in an existing system it is now good practice to install TRVs on all radiators except those in rooms with a room thermostat and those in bathrooms while the system is drained down.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[fuzzy]

its gone mad, ott imho

 

[dan_merkel@msn.]

this document states Should be fitted?
Heating and Hot Water Systems

Space Heating Controls / Zone Controls / Timing Controls / Boiler Control Interlocks apply as old L1 Standards, that is:

• Areas with differing heating needs (such as separate sleeping and living areas) should have individual temperature control - by the use of room thermostats or individual radiator valves.
• Seperate timing controls should be provided for space heating and hot water (except for combination boilers and solid fuel appliances). The system design must allow the provision of only space heating, only water heating, or both when required.
• Boiler controls must include provision to prevent the boiler operating when neither the space heating system nor the hot water system requires heat.
• Hot water storage vessels should have a minimum 35mm factory applied coating of PU-foam or the equivalent. Pipes and ducts should also be insulated , particularly where they run through unheated areas or outside. Hot pipework connecting to boilers and hot water storage vessels (including the vent pipe) should be insulated for at least 1m from the point where they connect.
• All heating and hot water systems need to be fully commissioned to ensure they are operating at maximum efficiency and that all controls work as intended. The person who carries out the commissioning must provide a certificate confirming that it has been carried out properly to both the client and the Building Control Surveyor.
• Proper instructions to owners should be provided to inform them of how to operate the system efficiently, what routine maintenance is required and the benefits of conserving fuel and power.

 

[dan_merkel@msn.]

Whats the point in having regulations that you should follow? makes them pointless? no one will follow them because the next fitter will not and win the job.

 

[mattyp]

Thanks for the feedback guys ! Still a little confused with it all,as everybody seems to have a slightly different view on the new regs !

 

[fuzzy]

but thats law speak for you... regs are law so are written with that terminology, should and must are different im afraid.

alot of this is old hat now, most of it pretty standard practive anyway so dont know what the worry is about. bang in boiler interlock and trvs and thats good enough for most, add a two port for bigger houses and jobs done

 

[unguided1]

why worry about it, I mean nobobody is actually policing the installation of heating systems, Gas Safe is only to do with gas appliances, Heatas is only to do with solid fuel appliances, Oftec is only to do with oil appliances The only people who may ask questions are the complete numpties at building control who if you told them that a cold water main was a foo foo valve for a new piece of renewable technology they wouldnt know the difference,

At the end of the day common sense dictates that the more control you can put on a system the more economic it should be to run, saying that too much control on the system and the customers can find it too complicated, make mistakes and it will cost them a fortune too run and be uneconomic

So I suggest make it as complicated as you can and as simple to use as you can and just do the best you can to confuse the nut sacks at building control

 

[mattyp]

I'm not that worried ! Just to mention, spoke to another plumber this morning and he was made to zone a new build, 2 bed semi with a combi by the building inspector , using two stats and s plan valves !!! He said it was no way near 150m floor space ! He said it was a nightmare to plumb !

 

[unguided1]

I'm not that worried ! Just to mention, spoke to another plumber this morning and he was made to zone a new build, 2 bed semi with a combi by the building inspector , using two stats and s plan valves !!! He said it was no way near 150m floor space ! He said it was a nightmare to plumb !

Like I said the nut sacks at building control are usually complete plumbs I have worked on one street on three different jobs with three different building inspectors with three different interpretations of how to do three identicle jobs, one side of the street came under one districts building control the other side of the street came under another, these tossers appear to be a law unto themselves dictating how things are to be done on a whim, when I see a building inspector on site unless he starts talking sense I tell em ter get stuffed

 

[dan_merkel@msn.]

Surely, if we install and certificate that we have fitted to part L are we not opening up ourselves to trouble?
Can see me fitting a system, ticking the bench mark saying it confirms to part L, notifying to Gas safe that it confirms to part L, Gas safe sending out a certificate stating that the install confirms to part L, only for the building inspector to say that it does not confirm because it SHOULD be zoned!
Very grey area!

 

[unguided1]

Surely, if we install and certificate that we have fitted to part L are we not opening up ourselves to trouble?
Can see me fitting a system, ticking the bench mark saying it confirms to part L, notifying to Gas safe that it confirms to part L, Gas safe sending out a certificate stating that the install confirms to part L, only for the building inspector to say that it does not confirm because it SHOULD be zoned!
Very grey area!

The point that I am trying to make is, who cares, who actualy checks that we have installed the systems correctly, it doesnt matter if your a cowboy or a dilligent professional the dung spouting muppets at building control have no real clue, Gas Safe dont care as long as long as it doesnt affect the gas appliance, Oftec doesnt care as long as it doesnt affect the oil appliance how many times have you been to an unvented cylinder to see the safety valves, tundish, D1 and D2 pipes incorrectly plumbed and signed off registered by someone who has done their unvented ticket, because I dont just see it occasionally I see it everyday

I have had this argument with Gas Safe and MCS when we inspect a job at this present time we are only looking at the appliances not the systems if we do not do our job properly on the appliances these regulatory bodies are there to police us (supposedly) Nobody is policing the sytems that these appliances are installed onto. This whole industry needs to be tightened up it also does not need to be even more splintered than it already is.

so if the supposed regulatory bodies dont care why should we??

I would also like to say that this is not how I work but merely a point that I am trying to make