permissable drop

[rm1]

i hope you can clarify this matter

when carrying out a tightness test on an existing installation you discover a 1mb drop the tenant does not smell gas are you legally bound to determine if the leak is on the carcass or the appliance or can you just note it on a cp12 certificate and pass the installation.

this is a grey area because some engineers will pass it others will isolate appliances to verify the source of the leak

can anybody quote a regulation that will clarify this matter

thanks

 

[villa_tom]

If you turn off all appliances and there is still a drop then you must cap meter as you cannot have drop on pipework at all. If the leak is present with appliances connected you can have 4mb or 8mb drop dependant on what meter you have and there is no smell of gas.

 

[rm1]

i am aware of that, the question i am asking is do you need to determine where the escape is if it is within the tolerance level ie you dont investigate further

 

[Barry98]

nice first post rm1

 

[rm1]

thank you i thought it would be a good debate

 

[smillsey]

do you have acs? If you do i worry why

 

[smillsey]

Its not a debate it is a regulation

 

[Bartdude]

We've just been having this debate......

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/gas-safety-register-forum/17319-slight-gas-leak-half-mb.html

 

[rm1]

smillsey,
i personally would never leave an escape no matter how small without investigating it further what i am looking for is where it states you must determine where the drop is coming from if it is within the permissable level as my gaffers are telling me that it is allowed of which i disagree with

 

[mikegas]

no you do not need to trace to determin whether its pipework or appliance if its within tolerance

 

[smillsey]

On existing gas valves you are allowed a drop. The drop will depend on the volume of the installation. The bigger the vol (meter and pipework) the lower the drop allowed.

If within range and the valves are existing not new (see i say valves and NOT appliances , as a new valve in an old appliance it like a new appliance, as the valve is the only thing allowed to "Let by")


Then yes you are allowed a drop, as long as no smell of gas, if in your judgement you think the drop is on the pipework and its at 7mbar drop and you are allowed 8mbar (E6 meter + 28mm pipes) then yes you would check, legally though you can still sign up and advise custard of drop. I wouldnt sign up and leave, I would isolate and make sure its on valve not on pipework.


All these permissable drops are only applowed on let by of the gas valves.... NOT the carcass

 

[smillsey]

as mike says, within tolerance = happy days. BUT if it goes boom the week later and you noted a 7mbar drop which is 1mbar within limits (E6 + 28mm)

Whats gonna happen in court, you are stuffed thats what.

Its up to you, boy if i find a leak on the pipework my customers are over the moon and thank me.

 

[royston]

After reading the other debate on this issue i must say im rather confused. When i did my gas last year i was told that if you find a drop you should isolate appliances and determine if the leak is on pipework, if so then no drop allowed regardless of meter. If found on appliances and is within tolerable limits, and no smell of gas then thats ok. Now i wouldnt be happy at leaving a 3 mb leak and not checking if its on pipework or not, as was mentioned in other debate.

 

[rm1]

smillsey,
read my first reply to you it states i would never leave it without determining whether it was on the appliance or carcass what i am asking for is someone to tell me what regulation applies to the question i asked to prove to my gaffers that they are wrong

 

[smillsey]

But they are right, you are allowed a drop at the appliance, if the valves are old

 

[GrahamM]

as mike says, within tolerance = happy days. BUT if it goes boom the week later and you noted a 7mbar drop which is 1mbar within limits (E6 + 28mm)

Whats gonna happen in court, you are stuffed thats what.

I think you will more than likely find you will be exonerated as you acted within the rules/regulations however misguided they may be sometimes. Various expert witnesses in gas work will be brought in to clarify this.

It's down to the individual/company how far you take this. I know some bosses would not be to happy for you to open up that 'can of worms' and start ripping up floorboards to find what was a permissible leak.

 

[smillsey]

Thats good to hear Graham, but I dont know if I would be willing to "trust" the courts to honour our guidelines....

 

[GrahamM]

The gas rules/regs are laws of the land that we follow. Just like the everyday laws we must follow. You keep to them and you have nothing to worry about.

 

[GQuigley67]

After reading the other debate on this issue i must say im rather confused. When i did my gas last year i was told that if you find a drop you should isolate appliances and determine if the leak is on pipework, if so then no drop allowed regardless of meter. If found on appliances and is within tolerable limits, and no smell of gas then thats ok. Now i wouldnt be happy at leaving a 3 mb leak and not checking if its on pipework or not, as was mentioned in other debate.

was also told this at college 2 years ago so that's what I'd do regardless if it is needed or not, as I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I left a house with a drop even within tolerance unless I made sure it wasn't on carcass.

 

[Reg Man]

There is no requirement for you to go round isolating every appliance to prove if release of gas is on pipework or appliances, its within tolerance. If start looking then yes. Personally I assess each situation. Might run round obvious parts of the installation with my audible leak detector. Did it today, found the usual leaking pipe behind kitchen units passing up to a ga hob. Meter disc installed, waiting for the repairs contractor to go in tomorrow.

 

[REDSAW]

was also told this at college 2 years ago so that's what i'd do regardless if it is needed or not, as i wouldn't be able to sleep at night if i left a house with a drop even within tolerance unless i made sure it wasn't on carcass.

same here only yesterday.

 

[kirkgas]

i am aware of that, the question i am asking is do you need to determine where the escape is if it is within the tolerance level ie you dont investigate further

NO is the answer to your question, you will find this covered in IGE/UP/1B which covers the complete requiremet for tightness testing, however we will now have a 5 day debate over what we WANT/THINK WE SHOULD/HAVE BEEN TOLD WE MUST DO

 

[tamz]

I've cut the other bits but from IGE/UP/1B on testing existing installations

Quote

h) Check for any pressure drop over the next 2 minute period.
If the pressure drop over this period does not exceed the value given in
Table 1 and there is no smell of gas, the installation shall be deemed to have
passed the test.
If the pressure drop exceeds the value given in Table 1, or there is a smell of
gas, the installation shall be deemed to have failed the test.
i) Where no appliance is connected, there shall be no perceptible movement
(fall) on the gauge reading over the 2 minute test period and there shall be
no smell of gas. If there is no perceptible movement of the gauge reading
(see clause 4.2.2) and there is no smell of gas, the installation shall be
deemed to have passed the test.


No mention of then isolate and find it but you should use your judgement and common sense.

 

[GQuigley67]

There is no requirement for you to go round isolating every appliance to prove if release of gas is on pipework or appliances, its within tolerance. If start looking then yes. Personally I assess each situation. Might run round obvious parts of the installation with my audible leak detector. Did it today, found the usual leaking pipe behind kitchen units passing up to a ga hob. Meter disc installed, waiting for the repairs contractor to go in tomorrow.

much u get an audible leak detector for ? quite expensive I'd imagine ??

 

[Reg Man]

Can get resonable quality audible detector for about £50.