Qualifcations

[Last Plumber]

Neither would I.

But there is an enormous difference between not making the sale that you describe, and banning the sale of gas related items to non GSRs.

Just as an example, well over half, and probably as many as 75% of sales of gas boilers are not to GSRs.

Thats right - nearly three quarters.

But these are not irresponsible or dangerous sales. They are just sales that you aren't considering in your ban plan.

Manufacturer sells to merchant. Not GSR
Manufacturer sells to distributor. Not GSR.
Distributor sells to merchant. Not GSR
Merchant sells to another mechant. Not GSR.
Merchant sells to Council, Housing association, ministry of defence, university, hospital, housebuilder, indeed, any one of hundreds of perfectly legitimate organisations who have a right to buy and sell products freely in a free country, and without any intent of illegal fitting, and with zero risk to the public.

Its simply disproportionate to ban these transactions - many, many millions of them across all gas products - in order to acheive what? To drive the have-a-go hero to purchase a 2nd hand appliance on ebay (how do you police that?) and do something still more dangerous?

I agree with a lot of what you say.

A lot of those sales/customers you mention, are and have legitimate reasons for buying. For example, If you sell a thousand boilers to a building firm for a housing estate, fine, someone has to do that and I have no problem with it.

My Ban Plan Ray, is more concerned with the sales of boiler parts that goes on over the counter to people who are obviously going to go away and fix their own or other peoples boilers.

I realise that this ban is nigh on impossible and will never be attempted.

You must understand why there is frustration felt by legitimate GSR engineers who see Non registered people buying and installing parts.

The suggestions made by myself and others are born of that frustration.

 

[bright spark]

That's a fair point from Ray regarding boiler sales.
I also agree with proof of GSR for sale of spares.
I've been asked about 2 or 3 times for my card from suppliers when buying spares.

Maybe another way to improve safety is for the customer to have to provide a cert to energy supplier yearly to prove that their appliance has been serviced by a qualified person.
No cert and gas is turned off.
This could work in domestic and commercial situations.
So no proof of service and your gas is turned off.
That'd get rid of non registered cowboys in the service end. Having to supply your GSR details (RGII in Ireland) would put the skids on the repair end alot

 

[SimonG]

This topic is always a good read.

Wholeheartedly agree that gas work should be done by gas people and oil by oil people etc.

But where do you draw the line? Lots of multi discipline parts.

 

[Last Plumber]

This topic is always a good read.

Wholeheartedly agree that gas work should be done by gas people and oil by oil people etc.

But where do you draw the line? Lots of multi discipline parts.

It's never going to have a solution that suits everyone involved is it?

The subject/Trade is massive

 

[SimonG]

It needs to be better, but the true numpties might become even more dangerous by going underground.

 

[Last Plumber]

It needs to be better, but the true numpties might become even more dangerous by going underground.

True.
There will always be numpties !
They will always DIY

 

[Ray Stafford]

oil by oil people etc.

Interestingly, oil has by far the best track record, with only 6 recorded deaths from CO poisoning from oil appliances from 1995 to 2013. That compares with 99 deaths from CO caused by LPG appliances in the same period, and 200 from solid fuel.

 

[johnf]

The trouble is there is more of a DIY approach when LPG is concerned in the leisure industry. Camping and Gas BBQ's are all bits worked on by DIYers and it can sometimes prove fatal. Oil on the other hand, apart from the odd workshop heater most appliances are fixed with permanent flues.

 

[bright spark]

The sensible head would think LPG don't touch it with a barge pole. But people will never let ye down in the stupidity department

 

[Last Plumber]

Interestingly, oil has by far the best track record, with only 6 recorded deaths from CO poisoning from oil appliances from 1995 to 2013. That compares with 99 deaths from CO caused by LPG appliances in the same period, and 200 from solid fuel.

Just to play devils advocate ( and I know that this includes my own comments )
We could say lets stop selling electrical items to anyone but electricians and that would not go down well either.

How many deaths by electrocution Ray ?

 

[Ray Stafford]

Just to play devils advocate ( and I know that this includes my own comments )
We could say lets stop selling electrical items to anyone but electricians and that would not go down well either.

How many deaths by electrocution Ray ?

I don't have the official stats, but a quick google search suggests its now a similar order of magnitude to CO deaths attributable to natural gas, although it was a lot more in the 60s and 70s. I suspect that electrocution may be secondary to fire as a cause of death attributable to electrical faults.

However, there is a clear villain in the DIY sector which caused mayhem and death way beyond anything that gas or electricity can ever dream of.

Boo and hiss girls and boys, at the vicious, the nasty, the downright homicidal...

...LADDER!

 

[Ray Stafford]

and won't bore regular posters with repeats,

Ok. So I lied. Here's what I wrote last time.

I have been thinking about this issue, and have discussed it endlessly over nearly 30 years.

There are three basic factors here:

Enforceability
Equivalences
Proportionality

Enforceability is a problem for several reasons. The biggest one are that the majority of the sales of gas appliances are not to registered installers, but are still perfectly legitimate. They are either sales down the supply chain (ie, Manufacturer > Distributor > Merchant) or sales to organisations who quite reasonably want to purchase the materials, despite having no intention of fitting them illegally. A large proportion of our sales are to Councils, HAs, Universities, MOD establishments and a whole range of other public and private non-GSR organisations. There is also the issue of whether a particular item is a "gas product" or not. Lots of things are dual purpose.

Equivalence presents another issue. If we seek such protection for the sale of items related to our industry, we must expect other industries to make similar arguments for equally draconian regulation. So sorry, you can't wire your own plug, maintain your own car, mend your own roof, or even use your own sex-toys! Poorly maintained cars kill FAR more people than poorly maintained gas appliances, and more people are hurt doing DIY up ladders on their own house than are affected by CO poisoning. Hospital A&E departments regularly have to remove objects from orifices in which they have no place being, and this would never happen if they were only sold to competent sex-workers.

Finally, we have proportionality. Starting from the point that "its a free country", as a society we accept a range of limits on our freedom for the collective good. We accept quite stringent limits on things like the practice of medicine, ownership of firearms or explosives because of the high likelihood of frequent unpleasant consequences if we don't. Moving down the chain of potential risk, we regulate bus and truck drivers more than car drivers because the consequences of their failures are greater.

At the bottom of the regulatory pyramid are the activities that merely require you to be a certain age, and consenting - like drinking alcohol, smoking, having sex or joining the armed forces. They key to this is proportionality - the degree of regulation is proportionate to the frequency and severity of the harm that would ensue in the absence of regulation. Increasing the level of regulation on the gas appliance market would simply be disproportionate - the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

And before someone comes out with the old argument "surely its worth it, if just a single life is saved...?" Nope. On that basis we would have a speed limit on all roads of 20mph which would pretty much eliminate road deaths. But the cost is unacceptably high.

So, much as I understand the sentiment, I absolutely don't support legal limits on the sale of gas appliances. Or electrical fittings. Or car parts. Or ladders.

Or sex toys.



I should add that we don't sell anything to DIYers. However, assuming a customer is a genuine tradesman, we also don't try to act as the industry busybody or policeman. Having said that, all our branch managers have a standing instruction to refuse to sell ANY product if they are doubtful about safety, and they will always have my backing if they choose to exercise that discretion.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

However, there is a clear villain in the DIY sector which caused mayhem and death way beyond anything that gas or electricity can ever dream of.

Boo and hiss girls and boys, at the vicious, the nasty, the downright homicidal...

...LADDER!

Licenses for ladders then!!!!

 

[Last Plumber]

Outright ban on ladders to anyone except Fire service ????

 

[johnf]

I would be happy with that. Hate the things. I wouldn't have to get on roofs anymore except by if there is a scaffold

 

[lisawig81]

I think people are missing the point here, fact is, CO kills! More often than we are led to believe as the cause of death is sometimes missed during a standard postmortem. Unless you pay for specific tests that detect death by CO poisoning. It is a scary thought that people risk their own and their loved ones lives to save pennies. Rogue gas engineers are putting lives at risk. You cannot put a price on life, unfortunately, some learn the hard way. Gas Safe only become aware when certain engineers are highlighted on the radar. The company I work for are working with GSR to try and strengthen the checks required before any gas engineer is able to carry out work on a gas appliance or gas pipework. I pray in the meantime, there are no further fatalities!

 

[Old Account]

A good start as previously mentioned, would be to stop the sale of gas related parts and equipment to anyone who is not qualified and competent.

The trouble is, that would also stop the money spinning.

The competency tests and exams need toughening up too imo. There are way to many people pass with flying colours when they really are NOT competent at all.

Again, money rules.

That would be my thinking too. Any gas related stuff should be just sold to a competent person which holds the licence to carry out gas. They seller should only hand the gas related materials over to someone who can proof / show his gas reg card. It's same when buying alcohol.
The most people don't care about their own health and safety, I've seen it too
many times that people really ignore what you are saying. They are trying to cut corners/ or to hold the expense to a minimum. If they really knew how dangerous it is they perhaps change the way of thinking.
I would also make more adverts about CO poising ( TV-radio-news papers)

Furthermore I think b&q an du all the other diy stores shouldn't be entitled to sell gas related stuff. It should be only sold in a proper plumbing store after showing or proofing you are gas safe registered.