Radiator banging / clicking - possible reaction to F1 protector?

[TheGiantHogweed]

Hi.

We’ve had rather a lot of noise issues with our radiators since we had a new boiler installed. Our radiators other than 2 more recent ones are all over 30 years old.

When the boiler got installed in the middle of 2020, after the first few days, we had several loud airlocks each day. Probably up to 10 times in total until we got the plumbers round to sort it out. I can’t remember exactly what they did, but the air locks stopped occurring then. But what then was the case was that whenever the heating was on, the main radiator that must remain on all the time seemed to have a sound similar to a cold tap permanently running. That sound was amplified to the room above, unless the TRV on this radiator was either on 5 or totally off.

We got the plumbers back, and they then drained the system (not a blast out though) and added some Fernox F1 Protector.

This seemed to remove the issue I described with the sound like a tap was running, but introduced a whole load more.

The system clicks and bangs occur very regularly when the heating is on. It however is much more noticeable in my bedroom, but the noise is very similar in many other places in the house. It is not coming from the radiators, but they are what makes it more audible as upstairs all the pipes are under the floorboards. The F1 Protector I’m guessing caused some sort of chemical reaction. Every single day, loads of air / gas was generated and the radiators could be bled very frequently with more build up of whatever this was. The water was also very dark grey and smelt strong. We kept dealing with this throughout the winter ourselves and although the noise remained, the issue with the gas does seem to have gone now, probably because the radiators hadn’t been used this last summer.


Now, the clicking decreases when the heating is off at the boiler, but it still clicks or bangs randomly usually at least once an hour through the night. Sometimes it can be incredibly loud.



From what I’ve read, this now could be many things:


Boiler kettling – It seemed that F1 protector it supposed to help with this, but it seemed putting that in caused trapped air and other nasty reactions.

Expanding / shrinking pipes – This sounds like it could indeed be the case. As I can lift and move my radiator slightly and feel it rubbing in the hole in the floorboards, and I can almost create the identical sounds myself by doing this. However, the radiators and pipes have not changed since our boiler got replaced, so as that is the case, I can’t understand why this should be related. Our heating with our old boiler just bade a very quiet and consistent tinkling while on, and no noise when off.

Dirty pipes – While we had the F1 protector put in supposedly to clean the system, given the reaction it caused, it probably has made it worse. We don’t have air / gas in the system now and the water seems clean, but I obviously can’t tell what the pipes are like. I don’t believe it is related to the radiators now, as I can turn them off at both the TRV and other valve and the noise still occurs from the pipes.


As it is a new boiler with very old pipes and radiators, it is hard to know if a full system flush will solve this issue. I know that these radiators and pipes can be quiet, and nothing physically should have changed about them. Just likely to be something in them.



This clicking / banging has been irritating me so much that I’ve done rather a lot of recordings of it. So I can explain what it is better.



This first link below is actually from last year. This was during the day when I was at my desk. The microphone easily picks up me pressing a few buttons on my keyboard, but then it just sounds like a hard metal object hits the radiator hard. The radiator is nowhere close to my microphone, which just shows how loud it can be. This is a good example of what can occur in the night.

http://www.wetherby.me/wiki/pub/Sandbox/RandomImages/1_Radiator_Sound.mp3

This next clip is close up to the pipe when there was an obvious reaction of some sort. You can hear what sound like fragments rolling around in the pipes, spitting, gurgling and then this clicking and banging begins. The gurgling has long since stopped, but the banging and clicking remains.

http://www.wetherby.me/wiki/pub/Sandbox/RandomImages/11_Radiator_Sound_Close_Up.mp3

Number 6 was only from a few days ago when the boiler was on, but my radiator off. I’ve edited the recording and joined many of the sounds closer together. They sound similar, but can vary a lot regarding how far apart they are.

http://www.wetherby.me/wiki/pub/Sandbox/RandomImages/06-Left_Pipe_-_Morning_Noise.mp3

This is an awful lot of information, but I’m really stuck with what this is most likely to be, and what sort of people would know most about it and be able to sort it.







Many thanks.

 

[Ric2013]

F1 is not designed to free off dirt or clean the system. If the water quality is poor then the system should have had a full powerflush when the boiler was changed IMO. Most likely the disturbance of the works has shifted crud that was hitherto deposited and not in circulation. I cannot see how F1 would caused the problem, however.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Thanks for the info.

Before our old boiler failed, we were not having these issues. So it has been quite difficult to work out what it is related to. The water system was totally drained when we got the new one installed, and that was when we for the first few days got a lot of airlocks occurring. After all this and a few other issues (the banging and clicking hadn't started yet) , they drained the system again and added the F1 protector and filled it back up. It only seemed to be a few days after this that all this banging, gurgling and clicking started to occur so frequently with rather dirty water. This was when there also seemed to be gas or whatever it was being generated daily as there were no leaks anywhere. After 2 summers of no heating being on, the radiators now full of just water again when on, but most of the noise is still there, but it seems to be in the pipes.

If it is related to dirty water or the reaction after the system was last drained with F1 added, then as the water was dirty at the time, it is entirely possible that the pipes will have a lot of that still in them. It hasn't been treated since this was added, but each attempt of anything at the time seems to have made it worse, so that is partly why it has been put off.

We considered new radiators, but then thought that if it was related to the pipes which are likely older than are 30+ year old radiators, it may make no difference at all.

The power flush seems to look like the best option, but we had one plumber round who would have been able to do that able to do that (though he was too busy then), but he admitted that he didn't have any idea what the issue could be, which surprised me a little. As the sound effects fit the description of several things I mentioned.



Any more advice would be much appreciated.



Many thanks.

 

[Chuck]

I've only skim-read your essay (sorry, but a bit pressed for time today) but my suspicion is that your installers have left the pump on its highest setting rather than the lowest – preferably constant pressure or proportional pressure – one that achieves proper circulation. This will cause the whooshing noises in your pipework. The creaking and banging is probably due to the new boiler having a much lower heat capacity heat exchanger than your older one, which means the flow temperature will rise and fall more rapidly. Also, if the system is probably cycling on and off more than your previous boiler did. The creaking and banging (arising from so-called slip-stick friction) will occur when the pipework is heating or cooling.

You can probably mitigate the problems by carefully balancing the system (so the TRVs are normally open) and matching the pump setting to the emitter system properly. A full cure may need you to have a look at points where the pipework and radiators are attached to the fabric of the house and insert some hemp or felt to allow smooth sliding.

Use the search box on the top right of this page. These issues have been asked and answered many times on this forum.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I've only skim-read your essay (sorry, but a bit pressed for time today) but my suspicion is that your installers have left the pump on its highest setting rather than the lowest – preferably constant pressure or proportional pressure – one that achieves proper circulation. This will cause the whooshing noises in your pipework. The creaking and banging is probably due to the new boiler having a much lower heat capacity heat exchanger than your older one, which means the flow temperature will rise and fall more rapidly. Also, if the system is probably cycling on and off more than your previous boiler did. The creaking and banging (arising from so-called slip-stick friction) will occur when the pipework is heating or cooling.

You can probably mitigate the problems by carefully balancing the system (so the TRVs are normally open) and matching the pump setting to the emitter system properly. A full cure may need you to have a look at points where the pipework and radiators are attached to the fabric of the house and insert some hemp or felt to allow smooth sliding.

Use the search box on the top right of this page. These issues have been asked and answered many times on this forum.

Sorry for the long post! I'm not good at explaining things in brief, maybe because I think it isn't enough for me to understand though! But this has been happening for such a long time that i thought I would go into more depth.

They did replace the old pump with a new one. Our old one was on speed 2 and this one was put on Speed 3. We didn't know this until we checked it and changed it back to 2. But this was after the first lot of problems. We have had it on 2 for well over a year with this issue still happening.

The most confusing thing is that I've tried avoiding using my radiator in my room for nearly a week now, but that seems to make no difference to the noise at all. The only time the system goes totally quiet (and remains consistently quiet with no bangs or ticks at any point) is when the boiler hasn't been heating up the radiators and pipes for several days, which will be why summer was fine.

I could tolerate some quiet noise while our heating came on and turned off, which is pretty normal, but the fact that it continues to bang and clunk a few times an hour over night is why I myself am really struggling to tolerate it.

Now I have looked and tried to listen in more areas of the house, this very similar noise seems to be happening in many other pipes too. As the pipes never used to make these noises, and the fact that they haven't moved, it suggests to me that using foam / checking the hole size in the floorboards and other movement related things are less likely to be related.

Our heating used to come on and off a bit more regularly actually. We used to have a brief 30 minutes in the middle of the day as well as the longer in the mornings and evenings. Now we just have morning and evening. It does the same in the day between the times it is on as it does in the night. Less clicks, but often there will be one or two very loud bangs. It is odd as it shouldn't be related to the temperature changing if the radiators have been off for so long.

Just need to think very carefully before spending money on anything that we are not sure will fix the issue.

 

[Chuck]

Our heating used to come on and off a bit more regularly actually. We used to have a brief 30 minutes in the middle of the day as well as the longer in the mornings and evenings. Now we just have morning and evening. It does the same in the day between the times it is on as it does in the night. Less clicks, but often there will be one or two very loud bangs. It is odd as it shouldn't be related to the temperature changing if the radiators have been off for so long.

The cycling I was referring to occurs every few hundred seconds within the longer periods the programmer is on.

I'm assuming the 'loud bangs' are coming from the pipework. If they are coming from inside the boiler, i.e. explosive ignition, it needs to be shutdown and investigated by a registered gas engineer as a matter of urgency.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

The cycling I was referring to occurs every few hundred seconds within the longer periods the programmer is on.

I'm assuming the 'loud bangs' are coming from the pipework. If they are coming from inside the boiler, i.e. explosive ignition, it needs to be shutdown and investigated by a registered gas engineer as a matter of urgency.

The occasional loud bangs and more frequent quieter clicks all sound like they are only in the pipes. You can hear them through the radiators, but when listening closely, it is clear that the louder points is in the pipe work. So I don't think this is a serious problem, other than in my case being extremely annoying as the loud bangs can sometimes wake me up at night. I keep changing my mind on weather it is the pipes moving, as that according to what I read does make sense, but then as they never used to do this and the pipes haven't been touched, this shouldn't have changed. The loudest bangs do sound like metal buckling as if it is shrinking or expanding, but I'm unsure why it would do this in the middle of the night with over 4 hours between the heating going off and coming back on. If it isn't the pipes shifting, then can dirty water and a very small amount of air maybe stuck in them cause this?

 

[Chuck]

If it isn't the pipes shifting, then can dirty water and a very small amount of air maybe stuck in them cause this?

No. Air tends to cause a 'trickling' sound. Occasionally a 'glugging' noise as a large bubble makes its way around the system.

Changing the boiler will have changed the operating temperatures of the pipes, the rate of change of those temperatures with time and the installer may have moved the ones near the boiler and/or anchored them more firmly at various points than they were previously cause the far ends to have to move more than previously to accommodate expansion / contraction.

Google 'central heating slip stick noise' or use the search box at the top right of the page. This is a common problem and the fix is a bit tedious but not difficult.

 

[John.g]

The occasional loud bangs and more frequent quieter clicks all sound like they are only in the pipes. You can hear them through the radiators, but when listening closely, it is clear that the louder points is in the pipe work. So I don't think this is a serious problem, other than in my case being extremely annoying as the loud bangs can sometimes wake me up at night. I keep changing my mind on weather it is the pipes moving, as that according to what I read does make sense, but then as they never used to do this and the pipes haven't been touched, this shouldn't have changed. The loudest bangs do sound like metal buckling as if it is shrinking or expanding, but I'm unsure why it would do this in the middle of the night with over 4 hours between the heating going off and coming back on. If it isn't the pipes shifting, then can dirty water and a very small amount of air maybe stuck in them cause this?

What make/output were/are the old/new boilers.

make/model of old/new circ pumps

Check that pump is pumping in the correct direction. (Towards either a mid position valve or towards two port valves)

 

[John.g]

Might seem a bit simplistic but also check that the boiler pipework is installed correctly, ie that the flow pipe is hotter than the return pipe.

Is it a open vented system or sealed with a expansion vessel?.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

What make/output were/are the old/new boilers.

make/model of old/new circ pumps

Check that pump is pumping in the correct direction. (Towards either a mid position valve or towards two port valves)

Unfortunately, I know very little about our old boiler or pump, as I never really thought about it. I just know it was a Glow-worm. Don't know anything about our old pump.

Our new pump is the grundfos ups3. It first got installed at an angle, then when we first complained of a heating noise issue, plumbers said that was wrong and put it on its side.

Regarding the pumping in the right direction, I don't have much knowledge about this, so I will share a picture to show the set up here - if it helps. One from as close to the side as i can get, and one from above.

I rarely notice much noise coming from here though.


Our new boiler is the ideal LOGIC HEAT R18. I didn't realize that small sticker got put on it with the date that the F1 protector got added. This was on the 19th of October last year. I think I remembered wrong. So we will have just had this summer with no heating, which seemed to have settled all this generation of whatever gas it was, but the clicks and bangs are still just as bad.

Let me know any other information I can provide.


Thanks.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

No. Air tends to cause a 'trickling' sound. Occasionally a 'glugging' noise as a large bubble makes its way around the system.

Changing the boiler will have changed the operating temperatures of the pipes, the rate of change of those temperatures with time and the installer may have moved the ones near the boiler and/or anchored them more firmly at various points than they were previously cause the far ends to have to move more than previously to accommodate expansion / contraction.

Google 'central heating slip stick noise' or use the search box at the top right of the page. This is a common problem and the fix is a bit tedious but not difficult.

Our old heating system (same radiators and pipes, but old boiler) made what I would can a tinkling noise. Loads of really quiet ticks almost the entire time it was on. Could be heard in almost every radiator, but was extremely quiet and not annoying. Always stopped when it was off.

When there was a load of air / generated gas in the system, it sounded similar to the middle of the 3 links i posted. Bit of glugging and rattling like there were loose bits rolling around in the pipe. Although whatever the air was seems to have gone now, the other stuff likely will still be there I feel, as the system has not been drained since.

I will try and do more research. I did try to do a lot before posting here, but I'm bad at finding appropriate questions to find the results, and haven't yet found anything that seems to totally match the issue, and what can be done to solve it. Each time plumbers came round since the boiler installation, the sound seemed to change or get worse in this case.

 

[John.g]

Unfortunately, I know very little about our old boiler or pump, as I never really thought about it. I just know it was a Glow-worm. Don't know anything about our old pump.

Our new pump is the grundfos ups3. It first got installed at an angle, then when we first complained of a heating noise issue, plumbers said that was wrong and put it on its side.

Regarding the pumping in the right direction, I don't have much knowledge about this, so I will share a picture to show the set up here - if it helps. One from as close to the side as i can get, and one from above.

View attachment 65309

I rarely notice much noise coming from here though.


Our new boiler is the ideal LOGIC HEAT R18. I didn't realize that small sticker got put on it with the date that the F1 protector got added. This was on the 19th of October last year. I think I remembered wrong. So we will have just had this summer with no heating, which seemed to have settled all this generation of whatever gas it was, but the clicks and bangs are still just as bad.

Let me know any other information I can provide.


Thanks.

Can you feel the pipes under the boiler and feel with your hand which is the hotter of the two (flow/return) and either count them from the left or photo them to rule out any mess up there on installation.

If there is a small header tank in your attic (together with a bigger one) then you have a open vented system, these systems are prone to pulling in air and causing all sorts of problems especially if the pump setting is too high.
The UPS3 is a very powerful pump and even setting 2 constant curve can cause problems (even though you say that the air has gone).
Your are on constant curve II (one solid green+one solid yellow) suggest (especially if you have this open vented system) changing to either constant curve I (one solid green) or preferably CP1 which is one flashing green + one flashing yellow, second last right diagram and see how it goes.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Can you feel the pipes under the boiler and feel with your hand which is the hotter of the two (flow/return) and either count them from the left or photo them to rule out any mess up there on installation.

If there is a small header tank in your attic (together with a bigger one) then you have a open vented system, these systems are prone to pulling in air and causing all sorts of problems especially if the pump setting is too high.
The UPS3 is a very powerful pump and even setting 2 constant curve can cause problems (even though you say that the air has gone).
Your are on constant curve II (one solid green+one solid yellow) suggest (especially if you have this open vented system) changing to either constant curve I (one solid green) or preferably CP1 which is one flashing green + one flashing yellow, second last right diagram and see how it goes.
View attachment 65313

Thanks for this. When I first tried to take the image of the pump, a shadow was over the instructions. I pressed the button without knowing it had to be held for 3 seconds. I will try the other things you mention.

A lot of the things you mention are just things that I have to guess what they are. I have attached more pictures of related stuff that hopefully with give you some of the answers to the things you are asking.

This is above our boiler in the kitchen. Directly above is the pump under the bathroom, that I showed in my previous post.

This is under our boiler. Presumably the one on the left will be the main input for the water. The one on the right goes directly outside.

This is out airing cupboard tank. This got replaced at the same stage as our boiler. We used to get a lot more noise here, but it has been a lot quieter (and much more well insulated) than the old one.

This is above the water tank in our loft. I know very little about this. Have attached a picture of the label if it helps. We also have a large cold water tank near by it.

One time when we had the plumbers round after the install when we reported the airlocks and air trapped in the radiators (before the F1 protector went in) they believed that a valve near this tank was possibly a bit loose. Can't remember exactly, but they said they tightened it up, but it didn't seem to change anything.




When the heating is next on, I will try out changing the pump settings again.

 

[John.g]

Should have told you about pressing the pump setting button for 3secs to change modes.

That's great info there.

1. Just feel the two copper pipes on the boiler top and identify (left or right) the hotter of the two) best felt when boiler fires up after being off for awhile but doesn't really matter as long as you can differentiate.

1a. After identifying the above immediately feel the piping at the pump and see if its the same temperature as the hotter or the cooler boiler pipes.

2. What pressure is the pressure gauge showing.

3. Try and see where the pipe (after the red expansion vessel) connects into the system, you maybe able to feel the pipe into which it connects and determine if on the flow or return or if it connects into the boiler heating coil, whether its connected into the top or bottom coil piping.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Should have told you about pressing the pump setting button for 3secs to change modes.

That's great info there.

1. Just feel the two copper pipes on the boiler top and identify (left or right) the hotter of the two) best felt when boiler fires up after being off for awhile but doesn't really matter as long as you can differentiate.

1a. After identifying the above immediately feel the piping at the pump and see if its the same temperature as the hotter or the cooler boiler pipes.

2. What pressure is the pressure gauge showing.

3. Try and see where the pipe (after the red expansion vessel) connects into the system, you maybe able to feel the pipe into which it connects and determine if on the flow or return or if it connects into the boiler heating coil, whether its connected into the top or bottom coil piping.

As I should be at home when the heating comes on in the evening tomorrow, I will try to check the 2 pipes then. I have tried them now, some time after the heating has been on, and I really can't tell any difference. Both were just a bit too hot to touch or hold for more than a second.

I am not great at taking instructions or understanding things. If you could just confirm what the pressure gauge is, and if it is in any of my pictures. Is it in the picture by the water tank?

The pipe that the red expansion vessel (if that is what it is) seems to go down to the airing cupboard and into the tank. Then the pipe that comes out of there and splits, and goes back into the loft, and under the floorboards upstairs. I don't know enough about this stuff, but I did think this was more related to heating hot water for the tap water and shower, rather than the radiators.

 

[Deleted member 123817]

The pressure gauge is in the third photo, it is probably scaled 0 to 4 bar and the needle is indicating either close to 1 or close to 2 bar.

 

[Deleted member 123817]

Did you change the pump mode to CP1

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I haven't changed anything just yet. The pump is hard to access as it it under a cork tile in the bathroom with several screws. When I next get a chance, I will try changing the mode.

The strange thing that makes me wonder how it can be related to the pump is that these clicking / banging sounds usually happen several times a night many hours after the heating goes off and well before it comes back on. Can it really still be pump related when the pump isn't active at this stage?

There are far more clicks when the heating is on, and while they sometimes emit the louder bangs, they tend to more often be the quieter ones, but still very annoying. I just don't know what can be causing the ones in the night as surly the pipes won't be having water shifted around in them so many hours after the heating is off. Unless it is related to the pump speed allowing being fast, so that is cools down faster, and then the pipes not contracting at the same speed they used to. But this seems strange to me. Very confusing!

The pressure gauge is in a bedroom that isn't mine, so will need to also check that another time.

 

[John.g]

Banging can be caused by piping heating/cooling, if circ pump head is very high the return temp will be very high and just may cause some of these problems so rule out the easy items first.

Also check boiler flow temperature and ensure not > 65C, some systems can get very noisy if flow temp approaches 70C.

The system pressure is also important and should be 1 to 1.5 when cold.

Anyway check what is available to you especially the boiler flow/return, this evening.

(Attached, picture of pressure gauge, to avoid any confusion.)

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I'll check the pipes above the boiler tonight right when the heating first comes on, if I get the chance.

When our new boiler got installed, they set it to 69 degrees claiming that was the most efficient. But we had read that this can cause noisier heating and possibly the reaction we had with the build up of gas (hydrogen?). However, since then, we turned it back to 62 or 63. Can't remember at the moment, but it was one of these two, and this was what we had our old boiler at too.

This is the pressure gauge. It looks to be just under 1.0. When I took this picture, it was the middle of the day, over 3 hours after the heating had gone off. Just like the night, there are still occasional clicks or louder bangs, but usually only a few an hour or even less. But that is a real issue at night as it is louder than anything else by a huge margin. And as I said, this does just seem to be in the pipes rather than the radiators, but the radiators are where you hear the noise more as upstairs, all the pipes are in the floorboards.

After I have checked the pipes above the boiler this evening, I will let you know and then see if I can try the alternative pump options. Though I myself still struggle to see how the pump that doesn't operate when the heating is off can be related to the bangs when the heating is off. Will see though.

 

[John.g]

If the E.vessel is effectively connected into the discharge side of the pump rather than the suction side then when running at the 6M head originally or even the 5M head now then there was/is a very good chance that the system is running under negative pressure in some parts so at least until the E.vessel piping position can be established I would recommend increasing that cold pressure (via the flexible top up hose) from just less than the present 1bar to say 1.3ish max 1.5 as you don't want to exceed ~ 2.3/2.5 bar with a hot system, then regularly vent the system with boiler off and maintain this pressure.
Flow temp anywhere < 65C should be fine IMO.

Banging is strange alright as it apparently only appeared on boiler changeout so difficult to understand why this is, also as it happens hours after normal cool down with pump off, also just ensure that the pump does in fact shut down and isn't running continuously.

All you can do is to address the obvious and the answer to the riddle might manifest itself.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

If the E.vessel is effectively connected into the discharge side of the pump rather than the suction side then when running at the 6M head originally or even the 5M head now then there was/is a very good chance that the system is running under negative pressure in some parts so at least until the E.vessel piping position can be established I would recommend increasing that cold pressure (via the flexible top up hose) from just less than the present 1bar to say 1.3ish max 1.5 as you don't want to exceed ~ 2.3/2.5 bar with a hot system, then regularly vent the system with boiler off and maintain this pressure.
Flow temp anywhere < 65C should be fine IMO.

Banging is strange alright as it apparently only appeared on boiler changeout so difficult to understand why this is, also as it happens hours after normal cool down with pump off, also just ensure that the pump does in fact shut down and isn't running continuously.

All you can do is to address the obvious and the answer to the riddle might manifest itself.

The first part I have put in bold, I may just need describing what the two heads are.

It is true that we didn't have this banging or clicking at this volume with the old boiler. It used to just be a very quiet and consistent tinkling sound. However, this banging didn't start until after the 2nd time the radiators had been drained and refilled. And on the 2nd refill was when we had f1 protector added, which was when we had this reaction that triggered the build up of gas or air almost every day for most of last winter.

The clicking and banging is much more frequent when the heating is on - sometimes can do it many times per minute for quite some time. But usually, when it does it in the night, it is generally predictable that the clicks or bangs that you hear will be the louder sort. Almost as if something has been building up and it then releases. Hard to describe. It is a loud enough bang to cause vibration, as I was irritated enough that I tried to guess when it would happen, and I held the pipe under my TRV one time as it did it, and you can certainly feel the vibration from the bang.

As none of the pipework under the floorboards has been modified or moved in the slightest, it is hard to understand how the cause of this banging would be related to the pipes moving well after the heating has gone off. Unless it is something to do with the fact the pump makes it cool down so much quicker, that the pipes possibly done contract at the same speed, and end up taking much longer. But I really don't know here.

 

[John.g]

The pump should stop after a few minutes at most after boiler shut down.

Full speed CCIII on the UPS3 is well over 6M and CCII is over 5M, the proposed CPI is a 3M constant head which should do the job pretty well IMO.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I appreciate your help, I just am limited as to what I can understand as the graph doesn't mean much to me unfortunately. It is the meaning of the 6m, 5m and 3m that I don't know about.

I'm a slow learner so I may take a while to understand!

 

[Deleted member 123817]

The higher the pressure (head) the greater the circulation flow, some systems depending on number of rads length and diameter of pipework etc will require higher pump heads than others, that's why you have multiple choices of pump heads. Pump head (differential pressure) is normally expressed in meters M, M/10 = bar so 6m=0.6bar, 5M=0.5bar, etc,

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Thanks, this hopefully will make more sense to me eventually.

We have 7 radiators. 5 being pretty large and the bathroom and my bedroom (both small rooms) have smaller ones. The hallway is the only one without a TRV as that is the main one (not sure the name for it).

Two of our radiators are newer than the others, but still over 15 years old rather than well over 30, but the pipework could well be a similar age to the house which was built in the 60s.

One example of the sounds in the night is below. I had my microphone recording it the whole night, and joined several of the sounds together. Typically, the really loud band was not there this time. The best example of what they can be like was in the first clip in my first post.

http://www.wetherby.me/wiki/pub/Sandbox/RandomImages/02-Right_Pipe_-_Night_Sounds.mp3

Our heating comes on soon, so I will make sure i check the pipes first, then let you know. They I will try changing some of the things you have suggested.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

right, when the heating first came on, it was the pipe at the top right that first started to build up heat. After a few minutes, the other one got warm, but didn't seem to quickly get hot like the other. As the water was going along the pipes here, I could hear what sounded like fragments rolling around in the pipes above the boiler - a similar sound to what I had in my bedroom pipes a while ago.

Now the heating is on, despite my radiator being off off, the pipes are clicking and ticking away many times a minute, and while I know it can be normal for it to do this more quietly when the heating first comes on, it is the fact that it keeps stopping and starting these intervals of many clicks while the heating is still turned on.

I'm unsure on how to change the pressure gauge though.


By the way, I have also checked the pump. As is has an LED when it is on, I know that it must have been off when I last checked it later in the evening the other day when the heating was off, as the LED was off. It turns out it is on speed 1. My dad told me he had put it to 2, but it may be too long ago to remember exactly. Let me know what other mode to try now.


Thanks.

 

[John.g]

Open the black arrowed valve 90 deg anti clockwise and increase whatever pressure its showing now by 0.3 bar but no more, reclose valve.

Flow pipe on boiler seems correct.
Will revert later re pump.

 

[John.g]

To select CP1, press the setting button for 3 sec, then single presses until 1 flashing green at one end and 1 flashing yellow at the other, CP1 is now selected with a constant pump head of 3M.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Open the black arrowed valve 90 deg anti clockwise and increase whatever pressure its showing now by 0.3 bar but no more, reclose valve.

Flow pipe on boiler seems correct.
Will revert later re pump.

I've changed the pump mode / speed to CP1.

I just need to fully understand that valve does, and make sure that it isn't easily possible to go wrong in a way that matters in the long term. As usually, I don't do any of this stuff myself.

 

[John.g]

You cant go wrong, that valve allows mains water into the system/E.vessel and even if you forgot to close it the red topped safety (PRV) valve on the boiler top will open at 3 bar.
So just open it slowly, you should hear water passing through it and the pressure gauge should start rising slowly, reclose the valve when the pressure has increased by 0.3 bar.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Done that now. Got the valve to be showing a fraction over 1.2. Still hearing the clicking, but possibly should give it time and wait for the heating to go off and give it another cycle.

The last 2 things done by plumbers did make a significant change to the sound but not making it quieter!

I almost wish I had left it as it was (as in not have the plumbers drain it again) as although that was still annoying, it was nothing like as bad as this. Before the time they emptied it for the 2nd time, it sounded like a cold tap was running (not sure, but I notice virtually everywhere seems to have a louder cold tap than the hot one) You could only solve this by making sure all of the TRVs were on maximum, so it was an issure if you wanted good control of the temperature. But at least that was totally consistent and predictable, and only the case when the heating was on. This clicking and other stuff only seems to have been an issue since the system was last refilled with the f1 protector added (it didn't have a power flush at any point)

So if what you have suggested and I have now done doesn't work, I'm wondering if a power flush may be the next option, though it obviously will cost and we can't be sure it will work.

 

[John.g]

I wouldn't be holding my breath re the above steps.

Are you getting any air/gas when you vent now (cold).?.

There should really be a air vent right on top of the boiler or on the flow pipe as it leaves the boiler, the boiler probably has a internal one but this is generally shut off after commissioning.
I suppose any air should really gather somewhere else where you can vent it.

I honestly can't suggest any other options, a power flush may work as you say?.

The only thing that I am not 100% sure about is the boiler flow being on the right hand side, the eManual doesn't specifically say so but the schematics of different pipe layouts suggests that it is.
You might check that out with Ideal Logic or some installer here might inform.

Just one other thing, that pressure should rise and fall between a cold and hot system by maybe 0.5bar.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I wouldn't be holding my breath re the above steps.

Are you getting any air/gas when you vent now (cold).?.

There should really be a air vent right on top of the boiler or on the flow pipe as it leaves the boiler, the boiler probably has a internal one but this is generally shut off after commissioning.
I suppose any air should really gather somewhere else where you can vent it.

I honestly can't suggest any other options, a power flush may work as you say?.

The only thing that I am not 100% sure about is the boiler flow being on the right hand side, the eManual doesn't specifically say so but the schematics of different pipe layouts suggests that it is.
You might check that out with Ideal Logic or some installer here might inform.

At the stage we had large build ups of air or gas, it seemed that most days, virtually all the radiators in the house would get quite a lot of whatever this was in them. Some of them you could be bleeding for over 30 seconds with the water only spitting just slightly, with significantly more of whatever the air was. Presumably the reason why it was spitting liquid just slightly it was because there were a load of bubbles inside or something.

It is possible that what settled this was the summer and having no heating used at all for many months. This water was very mucky last winter when this reaction (to something) was occurring, so presumably although the water seems clean now and the air is gone, some of the muck build up must be somewhere and maybe it could be related to the noise continuing?

I've tried bleeding the radiators again and they all seem full up. Haven't noticed any air or gas in them since they have been off over summer.

 

[Ric2013]

I doubt the age of the radiators has ANY bearing to the noises. Until they leak radiators don't really change in behaviour. By age, I do literally mean any age. Two thirds of the radiators in the building where I am writing this from are 49 years old.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I doubt the age of the radiators has ANY bearing to the noises. Until they leak radiators don't really change in behaviour. By age, I do literally mean any age. Two thirds of the radiators in the building where I am writing this from are 49 years old.

We first thought that nothing should change with the radiators as the pipes hadn't been touched. But all the TRVs had been replaced as well as the boiler as it was that that had failed.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Did they get cleaned eg with an ADEY magna cleanse ?

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Hasn't been 24 hours yet, but not sure if that makes a difference. But after the adjustments made to the pump (Speed 1 to CP1) and the increase of the pressure gauge to 1.2, neither seem to have made a difference, but were worth trying. Still getting the same clicking and occasional loud bangs in the night when the heating is off.

Did they get cleaned eg with an ADEY magna cleanse ?

As I know we haven't had a power flush at any point, I presume that was never used. We just had our system drained when we had our new boiler fitted, then drained again when we complained about airlocks and noises like a tap was permanently running. They then drained the system and refilled the system with F1 protector in October a year ago. It was just after this when we started using the heating more often that we seemed to get this reaction that caused dirty water and gas / air build up as well as a load of clicking and banging.

Over the summer, the air has gone and the dirt also, unless it has settled somewhere, but nothing has been done since we had this issue. Now it is winter again, the noise has come back. It is just so hard to diagnose what it is.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It could be something as simple as heat expansion due to the little plastic radiator clips breaking at the back where it goes onto the metal bracket

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Boiler kettling – It seemed that F1 protector it supposed to help with this, but it seemed putting that in caused trapped air and other nasty reactions.

Expanding / shrinking pipes – This sounds like it could indeed be the case. As I can lift and move my radiator slightly and feel it rubbing in the hole in the floorboards, and I can almost create the identical sounds myself by doing this. However, the radiators and pipes have not changed since our boiler got replaced, so as that is the case, I can’t understand why this should be related. Our heating with our old boiler just bade a very quiet and consistent tinkling while on, and no noise when off.

Dirty pipes – While we had the F1 protector put in supposedly to clean the system, given the reaction it caused, it probably has made it worse. We don’t have air / gas in the system now and the water seems clean, but I obviously can’t tell what the pipes are like. I don’t believe it is related to the radiators now, as I can turn them off at both the TRV and other valve and the noise still occurs from the pipes.

It could be something as simple as heat expansion due to the little plastic radiator clips breaking at the back where it goes onto the metal bracket

I had said in my original post (sorry for the length of if) about me thinking it could be expanding pipes, although I thought several things me and others had discussed since sort of made this unlikely. As the pipes and radiators haven't changed since the new boiler got put in place. And this clicking and banging only got introduced when the radiators got refilled with F1 protector a year ago. Almost all the pipes seem to do this now (but vary in volume), when they didn't before the system got bled out.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

But you changed boiler was the old one tanks in the loft and the new one pressure gauge ?

 

[John.g]

Well, it looks as if F1 started the noise so what about a drop of F2 into one of the rads to stop it?.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

But you changed boiler was the old one tanks in the loft and the new one pressure gauge ?

We have a water tank in the airing cupboard as well as a boiler downstairs in our kitchen. Our old water tank was still working when our old boiler gave up, but wasn't very efficient so we got that replaced at the same time as the boiler. I'm unsure of the type as I know little about this stuff. So I may well keep naming the things incorrectly.

Well, it looks as if F1 started the noise so what about a drop of F2 into one of the rads to stop it?.

I notice that many retailers sell Fernox of all types. This does look like a cheap option to try, but isn't this something that I shouldn't really be doing myself?

Even so, i I had to get someone in to do it, it would be cheaper than getting a powerflush. That may be the last option if nothing else works. But yes, it does seem to be the addition of F1 protector that made a significant change to the sound, and nothing I've tried myself recently has changed it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sorry that’s the cylinder have you always had the pressure guage / filling loop in the airing cupboard

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

The pressure gauge got added when we had the expansion vessel put in above the airing cupboard in the loft. My dad tells me that was probably over 10 years ago, so well before out boiler failed. He said this used to reduce in pressure by itself, and since we got our new boiler, it has been better at maintaining the same pressure. But as was suggested by John, I've increased it just a fraction.

 

[John.g]

If you wish, you can quite easily put a can of that F2 into a rad, just post a photo of one of your newest rads showing the air vents and can show you then.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

If you wish, you can quite easily put a can of that F2 into a rad, just post a photo of one of your newest rads showing the air vents and can show you then.

I will consider this then as it is easy to get hold of. It hopefully is one of these things that can me done by the inexperienced like myself and have little risk of causing any harm.

However, it does say it is intended for boiler noise, which isn't really the issue. I always hear the boiler come on and it is louder than our old one, but it just makes a noise that is only really noticeable in the kitchen or above in the bathroom and it seems a perfectly reasonable sound for what you should expect. The pipe noise surely won't be specifically boiler related will it? Especially when off.

I can't tell what is more likely to be the cause of this starting up. Not sure if emptying the system as well as adding the F1 protector was any more likely to trigger what happened rather than just adding the protector without bleeding the system.


This F2 protector doesn't cost much, but reading up about it, it still seems like it may not be the sort of thing that helps stop radiators and pipes banging / clicking. If it doesn't work, it likely will have to be will have to be wasted as the only other option i can see is the power flush.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

If you wish, you can quite easily put a can of that F2 into a rad, just post a photo of one of your newest rads showing the air vents and can show you then.

I will get a picture when I get the chance. I just need to understand the exact location on the radiators you are on about. Is this where you bleed them? Even the newer radiators take the same key to bleed them so they likely have the same style vent.


Regarding the heating noise, this picture is quite good at showing what the sound is like over the whole period the heating is on from 06:00 until 08:30.

Virtually all of the lines are the clicks. I could understand more if it was when it was coming on and going off, but the fact that when it is on, the pipes randomly start doing these clicks so frequently seems odd. Just before an hour for example.

 

[John.g]

Was it making noises when (if) you tried it with both CH&HW off and the hot tap opened?.

This is the plug end you remove after opening the vent (screwdriver slot), you first (after first shutting valves at both ends of rad) open the vent to ensure no pressure, then remove that blank end, open the vent a few more turns, syphon off a litre or so of water and pour in the F1 via a plastic funnel or whatever, close up the rad, reopen valves top up pressure if required, flash up the boiler and wait for the silence!!.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Thanks for this.

I am unfortunately not very good at understanding instructions, so I could do with it breaking down a bit more if that is ok.

I have highlighted in your quote the parts I don't fully understand.

Was it making noises when (if) you tried it with both CH&HW off and the hot tap opened?.

I have looked back in this thread and tried to understand what you are referring to here, but unfortunately can't work it out.

This is the plug end you remove after opening the vent (screwdriver slot),

Unless I am missing something, it does seem that my radiators are different.

Here are some examples:

This above is our main radiator where the system can be bled (left picture), and the only one without a TRV. Though it doesn't look like it, the part above the copper pipe joining the radiator is only just over a year old. I think this initially having a poor fit was possibly related to the airlocks we were first experiencing, as this is what we had to adjust to stop them when they occurred. The other image above to the right is on this radiator where it is bled.
The two below are the two newer radiators.

And this is one that seems to look slightly different again, but is one of our very old radiators. Most of the radiators in the house have the same style valve as the top left picture.

you first (after first shutting valves at
both ends of rad) open the vent to ensure no pressure, then remove that blank end, open the vent a few more turns, syphon off a litre or so of water and pour in the F1 via a plastic funnel or whatever, close up the rad, reopen valves top up pressure if required, flash up the boiler and wait for the silence!!.

The rest of what you have said here, I may understand when I work out how to use the vent.

I assume you mean F2 here!

I also may as well know what type may be easiest for me to use. I've seen this style in a 265ml bottle elsewhere: Boiler Noise Silencer F2 Express 400ml - UK - https://fernox.com/product/boiler-noise-silencer-f2-express-400ml/

Seems more appropriate for the number of radiators.

Hopefully I will get to understand what you mean.


Many thanks.

 

[John.g]

CH is Central Heating. HW is Hot Water. Thought I suggested in some post (maybe on your other thread) or other to shut both (switches) of these off at the boiler front and open the same hot tap that was opened when you heard the boiler whistling noises, if no noise, at least you know the problem is with the boiler or/and system water.

I wouldn't advise removing any of those vents, might run into problems, don't know of any other easy method to add the F2.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

CH is Central Heating. HW is Hot Water.

Thanks. I think it is more likely to be coincidence, but maybe it is related to hot water and not just the central heating. As this morning had pretty much the same pattern as the image I showed you. Noise when it first comes on at 06:00, and then went quiet until later on, which when I think about it is often when our shower is used. I haven't noticed this pattern in the evening though, which is why I'm not so certain. Our shower is just gravity fed from a cold water tank and heated up by the boiler (if i understand correctly)

Thought I suggested in some post (maybe on your other thread) or other to shut both (switches) of these off at the boiler front and open the same hot tap that was opened when you heard the boiler whistling noises, if no noise, at least you know the problem is with the boiler or/and system water.

I haven't heard any noise from the boiler itself that sounds at all worrying. The airlocks when we had them was extreme noise and vibration from the pipes near the TRVs, but this soon got sorted. The rest of the noise is just these clicks and bangs now.

It is entirely possible that I have filtered some things out that you have said, or misunderstood them due to my poor memory though! If the hot water system for the taps and shower could be related, them that admittedly isn't something I have yet tried turning off and running cold, though I don't know how I would do that exactly.

I wouldn't advise removing any of those vents, might run into problems, don't know of any other easy method to add the F2.

Thanks for making this clear, I'm not surprised I didn't understand. At least I know that if I want to try this, i will have to try and contact a suitable plumber. We've just put this off as each time any have come, the issues seem to have got worse. At least we know that things change each time, so hopefully it will go in the right direction next time.

Just not sure if the call out cost for adding the F2 would almost make it worth finding someone that can do a power flush, though I know little about the rough price for what this could be.





This is likely unrelated, but I've found an old picture that my dad took of how the plumbers originally installed our pump, which wasn't in the position the manual stated it should be:

 

[John.g]

I think I've mixed up threads and thought you had a combi so obviously cant carry out the "cold water" flow test.
May have asked this previously the boiler might display the temperature on its front, if so see what its showing, if > 65C reduce it to 62/63C and see if any difference.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I will have repeated myself enough in this thread, so don't worry that you have. Yes, you did mention this earlier and I have changed it. It was originally installed and put to 69 degrees. We now have it at 62 / 63 which we have had it at for some time now. This is the same temperature we had our old boiler at.

My next option then is probably to find someone who can add in the F2 protector correctly, and would probably be ideal if they would also be able to do the appropriate power flush should the first option fail. Or may even be better to avoid the cost for both and do a full power flush. But could do with someone working out what it could possibly be. I will look around this forum. I'm not yet sure on how or if you can ask for jobs here and if there are any limitations.

Many thanks for your help.

 

[John.g]

I feel that you will have to grasp the nettle and get a full power flush done professionally.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Well, no luck.

Had the radiators power flushed. The water was confirmed to be rather brown and dirty. So I should still accept that it will have done the system good, but these bangs and clicks are still there.

As every different company / plumber or any place will be like, everyone tells you different things. They said the speed of the pump should never have been touched and left on what it was when it got installed. They put it back to speed 3 which I still think is seriously overkill for a house this size with 7 radiators. The noise this pump makes is just too much on this speed. You can hear the hissing from it at ever radiator in the house. Basically making it sound like the boiler is in every room. I will try and get hold of them regarding the other sounds still being there, but despite what they say, I still plan to switch it back to speed 1, as the heating was just as effective at keeping the house warm with it set to this over the last year.


It is still really puzzling as to what this is. I would not be against it being related to pipe movement with heat expansion and shrinking it it wasn't for the fact that this suddenly started the same day that the system was bled with f1 protector them added. The pipes occasionally tinkled before, but they didn't bang and click all over the house. There has never since been a heating cycle without this happening. It is still almost exactly the same as the picture I last uploaded. There seemed to be very little noise when the plumber first tested it for half an hour when the boiler was set to the highest temperature possible. But when it was reduced to eco (69 degrees), it then started.

I can only guess that something really odd happened relating to the method they filled up the system when they added the F1 protector. This noise is not from the radiators, they are just acting as amplifiers. It is from the pipework. When downstairs, i hear bangs, clicks and pops all over the place. being very sensitive to directions, it has basically allowed me to learn where all the pipes must be, that I never knew before. Why would they be making these clicks all over, at different random stages when they didn't do so before?

Having spent £800+ on a power flush that has failed to get rid of this, as well as attempting different boiler temperatures, pump speeds and all sorts, I am baffled as to what this can be. I accept that heating is nearly impossible to get to make no noise at all. but me being as sensitive as I am, this disrupts my sleep and even focusing on listening to the TV. Although the clicks are obviously not always happening every second, they really are not quiet at all. It just sounds like someone tapping the pipes with a screw driver.

The picture of the audio is an hour of the heating in the evening. You can see just after 45 minutes, it switches off which gets rid of the pump noise, but then the clicks and bangs go crazy for a while. This was not the case until after the power flush, but may be related to the excessive pump speed. The audio attachment is the stage where the pump switches off. Where this is recorded is on the other side of the house to the pump.

I've also just found a video from ages ago before the system got bled and the F1 protector got added. This was well after we got our new boiler and pump. The heating instead sounded like the video shows unless all the TRVs were on full. Whenever they were reduced, it made this main radiator sound like a cold tap was running. This sound could be heard in my bedroom. This infact would still be far better than what is now the case with intermittent bangs. Something strange caused this, but I don't know what.

Sorry for all this info, but just trying to list everything I've tried to make it as clear as possible. I myself am desperate to reduce this noise as it is incredible disruptive.

 

[Ric2013]

Given the chaotic (but sadly not uncommon) state of the floor void: pipework, electrics, and general debris typical of any house built without care or modified on several occasions during its life, it doesn't surprise me particularly to hear clicks and noises. I do wonder whether the noise may have come into play when the boiler or pump was replaced and whether some of the existing pipes may have been moved or twisted very slightly and whether this may have led to them grip/slipping against adjacent surfaces during expansion or contraction phases while, perhaps, the air noise was masking these quieter sounds. Indeed it is incredibly hard to work on pipework that is not fully supported without moving it al least a little. That said, I may be going up a dead end in that I find it hard to entertain the idea that the F1 was a cause of the noise, and I may be wrong.

I do have a hunch (no more than that), that someone has fiddled with the balancing of the system. The balancing may now be out or it may have been out previously and is now correct (but is now making a noise it didn't used to due to the return pipes being warmer or cooler than they were in the past).

As every different company / plumber or any place will be like, everyone tells you different things. They said the speed of the pump should never have been touched and left on what it was when it got installed. They put it back to speed 3 which I still think is seriously overkill for a house this size with 7 radiators. The noise this pump makes is just too much on this speed. You can hear the hissing from it at ever radiator in the house. Basically making it sound like the boiler is in every room. I will try and get hold of them regarding the other sounds still being there, but despite what they say, I still plan to switch it back to speed 1, as the heating was just as effective at keeping the house warm with it set to this over the last year.

Essentially, the test for correct pump speed on a modern boiler is that, once the system is warm through and with all radiator manual on/off valves or TRVs fully open, the water leaves the radiators at a temperature no more than 20°C cooler than it went into the same radiator. This would be measured at each radiator; the flow though each radiator can be adjusted (called 'balancing the system') but the pump speed would be set to be fast enough for the radiator that seems to be least easy to supply sufficient water to.

In the old days, the old boilers were coupled to system that would give return water 20°F or 11°C cooler than the flow when the boiler flow was at maximum (around 82°C), but that was largely arbitrary and much to do with the need to avoid thermal stresses to the boilers of the day. This is relevant to you as your system would largely have been designed to work under these conditions: older radiators may not give enough heat on a 20°C drop, so your drop may need to be set at less than this.

At a guess, I would imagine speed 1 would be sufficient for 7 radiators, especially radiators of that age which are unlikely to require a huge amount of flow.

I can only guess that something really odd happened relating to the method they filled up the system when they added the F1 protector.

Or some small change that took place at the same time and they didn't even think to mention (I'm clutching at straws here!).

The picture of the audio is an hour of the heating in the evening. You can see just after 45 minutes, it switches off which gets rid of the pump noise, but then the clicks and bangs go crazy for a while. This was not the case until after the power flush, but may be related to the excessive pump speed. The audio attachment is the stage where the pump switches off. Where this is recorded is on the other side of the house to the pump.

Ticking noise certainly sounds like thermal expansion to me, and the plethora of ticking after the pump switches off would suggest thermal contraction.

I've also just found a video from ages ago before the system got bled and the F1 protector got added. This was well after we got our new boiler and pump. The heating instead sounded like the video shows unless all the TRVs were on full. Whenever they were reduced, it made this main radiator sound like a cold tap was running. This sound could be heard in my bedroom. This infact would still be far better than what is now the case with intermittent bangs. Something strange caused this, but I don't know what.

That running tap noise in the old video with partially open valves is the result of the water, pressured by the pump, squeezing through the restriction created by a partially open valve. It would be undesirable in a properly designed system, but can be unavoidable if modifications to an elderly system (such as fitting higher output radiators) means that the only way to shove sufficient water through some parts of the system without creating excessive flow in other parts is to up the pump speed. In such a case, the pump may need to run at top speed with some of the circuits heavily throttled back. Ideally, the radiator with the most restrictive (longest, usually) pipe run would have its valves fully open and the pump would be set just right to feed that circuit, with the rest of the radiators throttled down and you'd hope the pump would not then need to run so hard as to create this kind of noise.

From your description, I would suggest that what is happening is that the pump is set to a fixed speed (as all old pumps did - modern pumps can (if set to a proprtional pressure setting) vary their speed to give more flow when required and less flow when not required, but this setting tends to provide less pressure than the fixed-speed setting, so does not always work on a legacy system that might simply require more pressure). The fixed speed means the pressure increases when there is little flow through the other radiators, so, having nowhere else to go, it's getting shoved through your only non-TRVd radiator.

Sorry for all this info, but just trying to list everything I've tried to make it as clear as possible. I myself am desperate to reduce this noise as it is incredible disruptive.

I get it. Noise is, actually, one of the (several) reasons I switch my heating off altogether at night. Sometimes theory and practice don't quite go together and there are factors we cannot see. Which can sometimes be more annoying than the symptoms themselves!

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Right, going over a few more things.

Now I think about it, I do remember that when the plumber had completed the power flush, they tested the system by leaving it running for about 40 minutes while they just waited outside in their van, which I think was quite nice of them as they wanted to make sure it made no noise. This test however was with the boiler set to it's maximum temperature, which obviously is overkill.

Thinking about what Chuck mentioned on the first page, maybe this new boiler does cycle on and off when set to a realistic temperature for the heating (69 degrees). So maybe this is the reason why it can sometimes be quiet for nearly 20 minutes while the heating is on, but maybe when it gets to a certain temperature, it switches off and makes the pipes contract and bang for ages. At this rate, I don't really care if I have to use a less efficient way - I will accept to have to have more input in my parents heating bills given how much I'm suffering with this noise. If there was any way of balancing the system so that when the heating is on, it doesn't constantly need to change the pressure in the pipes. I'm guessing our old boiler did things differently.

The main confusion is just that this dramatic change did occur when the system was bled and refilled with F1 protector. It may well not be the F1 protector, I just know that went in. Maybe it could be related to what happened for about a month after this? More or less instantly when they got refilled in October 2020 with F1 protector, there was loads of air / gas beign generated with no leaks anywhere. Daily, I would bleed the radiators and get a load of black dirt and froth and didn't get to just water until the radiators had been bled for over a minute. This seemed to calm down later into winter and whatever muck was in there had settled / hardened in the pipes over summer when the heating was never used.

Now, is it possible that this reaction was that strong that even a power flush has failed to clean the pipes? Long term damage or something?

The heating still functions fine, although there still is regularly small amounts of air in the radiators when bled. The water is very clean now though. But the noise is now worse than it was just before the power flush.

The only improvement I can think of myself is putting the pump back to speed 1. I will wait until after the plumbers come back as I don't think they agree, but the specific pump noise is loud enough that even my parents are wondering why that makes so much noise. Although in reality, it is quieter than the clicks, just permanent when the heating is active.

Any other suggestions for things I could try will be worth knowing. It may involve ripping up floorboards at some stage, but that should be left until I'm out of other possibilities, as I still don't get what exactly it could be that so suddenly started this banging and clicking in the October before last!

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Had the plumbers come round again after the power flush had been done, but as i thought may be the case, they were unable to do anything further.

The system water is now perfectly clear, so i still think the flush was worth it. The pump got changed back to speed one, which is certainly quieter regarding the noise of the pump. It however hasn't got rid of this pattern of the heating cycle which still seems pretty much identical to the picture I shared further up the page. It seems that if the boiler and thermostat are at the highest temperature possible, there is virtually none of this noise. It isn't like the radiators got baking hot like this with our old boiler, so it must just be related to the system working differently when at the temperature it should be. I will try turning it back to around 63 degrees.

One thing the latest plumber told me is that the noise more likely started in one location, and travels to others as the system is all connected. I can understand that point of view, but I'm not convinced. There are different noises at different areas of the pipework under the floorboards as the frequency and volume is entirely different, and they occur at different stages. And when downstairs, I can clearly hear the noises coming from all over the place at different stages. I've basically learned the path of the pipes that I never knew before based on where the noise is coming from. I find this unbearable unless whatever I'm doing is consistently that bit louder than the clicks. It can even distract me while having conversations due to how sensitive I am.

If I knew one area started it, and that would stop it, floorboards coming up would not be as much of an issue. But it is clicking and banging everywhere...

The only pipes that I feel have any reason to have moved in the slightest when the boiler and hot water cylinder installation got done were above the boiler in the bathroom, and the bedroom with the hot water cylinder. Also where they first bled the system which was on the only non TRV radiator, but that radiator and the pipes under it don't really seem to make much noise. My bedroom is on the other side of the house to the hot water tank and boiler and the pipes can't have been sifted, other than by natural expansion and contraction. But the noise is awful here, and most other places.

I'm really stuck with where to look under the floorboards first.

 

[Ric2013]

I see the point about increased possibility of cycling (ON/OFFing) of the boiler with a reduced flow temperature, but can't see why that would start separately from the boiler change. Obviously if the old boiler was underpowered, it would run flat out to try to get the temperature up whereas if the new boiler is oversized, it will have to cycle to avoid overheating. I suppose increasing the boiler setpoint will increase the required heat output, but ultimately the room will reach the set temperature and then the system will cycle instead. May be less in terms of cycling, but probably won't eliminate it.

Can you remind us what make and model boiler you have please?

 

[John.g]

Our new boiler is the ideal LOGIC HEAT R18

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I see the point about increased possibility of cycling (ON/OFFing) of the boiler with a reduced flow temperature, but can't see why that would start separately from the boiler change. Obviously if the old boiler was underpowered, it would run flat out to try to get the temperature up whereas if the new boiler is oversized, it will have to cycle to avoid overheating. I suppose increasing the boiler setpoint will increase the required heat output, but ultimately the room will reach the set temperature and then the system will cycle instead. May be less in terms of cycling, but probably won't eliminate it.

Can you remind us what make and model boiler you have please?

Ugh I don't understand the issues I'm getting with this forum. Both on my PC and tablet, a few seconds after it loads everywhere has a grey filter making everything so hard to read. It is like something is blocking it.
Anyhow, I can just about read it and read it no problem when i log out!

This is the boiler:
LOGIC HEAT H18

 

[ShaunCorbs]

@Lou

 

[Lou]

Hi There

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