Recent house purchase - CH/HW Major issues.

[Dale_R]

What is the power in watts W when running in C2 & C3.?

You would have to put your ear to mine even at full speed C3 & 40W to hear anything.

I will check C2, C3 said 33W when I last tried it.

I wonder what the difference is with the 5M and 6M models, I did check the spec sheet but no where do they give impeller size or dB noise levels.

 

[John.g]

I saw C2 at 17W which is OK, mine runs at 22/23W on C2 and 33W on C3 sounds about right for a 5M head.
There should be no difference in noise levels for either which should be practically zero judging by mine.

Why is it only showing 0.7W on C2 at the start of your video??

Presume the pump is pumping out of the boiler, ie from the flow (hot) side.

 

[Dale_R]

I saw C2 at 17W which is OK, mine runs at 22/23W on C2 and 33W on C3 sounds about right for a 5M head.
There should be no difference in noise levels for either which should be practically zero judging by mine.

Why is it only showing 0.7W on C2 at the start of your video??

It's showing 0.7 M3/H, 17W.

Flow from the boiler goes in to the top of the pump and out of the pump in to the 3 way valve.

 

[John.g]

Thats good, mine doesn't display that.
So, IMO that noise from a Wilo circ pump is certainly not normal, I have installed another one for a relation and its practically silent, like mine.

Probably won't make any difference but when you press one of the buttons the pump does a automatic venting for ~ 10 minutes where it slows/speeds the pump up and down apparently, I didn't use it on installing mine.

 

[Dale_R]

Today's Update



The issue is definitely not related to the vent/feed pipe or pump, I can run it indefinitely with the boiler off or below 58-60c without issue.

However if I turn the boiler up so it's heating the water above 58c, as soon as the radiator circuit warms up it starts getting noisier, the higher the temp the noisier it becomes.

I'm not sure where to go next with this, whether I need chemicals to treat the system, hire a power flush machine or something else.

I'm going to change the pump for a Grundfos UPS3 as it looks to be built around a more traditional type motor, rather than the tiny BLDC motor on this Wilo.

 

[John.g]

Uncannily like this, with a UPS2 pump.

Air Problem in Open Vented System after Boiler Change - UK Plumbers Forums

Hi All, First post here, so please be kind! I am currently having a lot of trouble with air and related noise in my open vented heating system. Long story, with lots of things tried already, so please bear with me… Firstly, a photo of the heart of the system in the garage as it is today (lots...

www.plumbersforums.net

 

[Dale_R]

Uncannily like this, with a UPS2 pump.

Air Problem in Open Vented System after Boiler Change - UK Plumbers Forums

Hi All, First post here, so please be kind! I am currently having a lot of trouble with air and related noise in my open vented heating system. Long story, with lots of things tried already, so please bear with me… Firstly, a photo of the heart of the system in the garage as it is today (lots...

www.plumbersforums.net

Thank you for finding that thread, I've been searching for it on here since you mentioned someone had a similar issue.
What a shame they didn't come back on here and let everyone know what the problem was.

 

[Dale_R]

I've made a video to show the noise from the system, it's throughout the whole house, every radiator, all pipework and at the boiler.
This only happens when the system gets up to temperature. From a cold start it is silent up until the water gets hot, then if I turn the boiler off as the system cools down it goes silent again.

I'm not really getting any air in the radiators and I've been checking the F&E tank, I'm getting no pump over at any pump speed and no change of level in the F&E tank.

Also I returned the Wilo pump and fitted a Grundfos UPS3 today. It is MUCH quieter.

I'm currently trying to find the best speed to run it at, I've had it on PP1 but the livingroom 2 metre wide double radiator doesn't get hot and the same with the tall vertical radiator in the kitchen. I'll try it on PP2 for a bit.

Video:

 

[ShaunCorbs]

That’s air in the pipework moving

 

[Dale_R]

That’s air in the pipework moving

I can't seem to shift it.
It only happens when it gets hot.

 

[John.g]

I've made a video to show the noise from the system, it's throughout the whole house, every radiator, all pipework and at the boiler.
This only happens when the system gets up to temperature. From a cold start it is silent up until the water gets hot, then if I turn the boiler off as the system cools down it goes silent again.

I'm not really getting any air in the radiators and I've been checking the F&E tank, I'm getting no pump over at any pump speed and no change of level in the F&E tank.

Also I returned the Wilo pump and fitted a Grundfos UPS3 today. It is MUCH quieter.

I'm currently trying to find the best speed to run it at, I've had it on PP1 but the livingroom 2 metre wide double radiator doesn't get hot and the same with the tall vertical radiator in the kitchen. I'll try it on PP2 for a bit.

Video:

The UPS3 on PP1 is bound to be quit as it will pump almost nothing on that setting, PP2 should/might be sufficient and CP1 at a constant 3.0M certainly will.

 

[Dale_R]

The UPS3 on PP1 is bound to be quit as it will pump almost nothing on that setting, PP2 should/might be sufficient and CP1 at a constant 3.0M certainly will.

PP2 seems to be heating up all the radiators and is still very quiet.

 

[John.g]

But, Is system still very noisy once the temperature is increased??. I still am not confinced that you are not pulling air into the system as your vent/cold feed is not conventional, the traditional H (VCP) system is like one below and a combined cold feed & vent IMO should be combined up at the F&E tank with the cold feed the same diameter as the vent, would be tempted to do as Shaun suggests and seal it but again no cast iron guarantee that that will cure the problem, I would certainly seal it in preference to messing around now with any other methods.

 

[Dale_R]

But, Is system still very noisy once the temperature is increased??. I still am not confinced that you are not pulling air into the system as your vent/cold feed is not conventional, the traditional H (VCP) system is like one below and a combined cold feed & vent IMO should be combined up at the F&E tank with the cold feed the same diameter as the vent, would be tempted to do as Shaun suggests and seal it but again no cast iron guarantee that that will cure the problem, I would certainly seal it in preference to messing around now with any other methods.

Yes it's still very noisy when the temperature increases.

I thought this was conventional, it took me a while to work out the difference with that picture and what I can see is the tees are in different places, I've drawn a quick picture which I will post below to see if I've got this right.

I have had the vent pipe in a jug full of water for a couple of days, I assumed it couldn't be a vent issue as there would be no way to suck air in with the vent pipe submerged? Also this issue has only been present since I cleaned all the magnetite out and got the radiators going, surely it must have all worked at some point and the part that it's only happening when it gets hot is what I cant get my head around. I could run it forever with the boiler switched off or at a low temp at any pump speed and its fine.

It will be the last resort if I have to seal the system, I don't know if I trust the microbore manifolds under any additional pressure as they are hidden in the building and I have no way to inspect them if anything goes wrong.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Seal it at 0.5 bar the pump is pushing that much on the system already

 

[Dale_R]

Seal it at 0.5 bar the pump is pushing that much on the system already

I could go down that path, but it surely as I have a jug on the vent pipe with water in it there is no way air can be sucked in through there?

Im concerned there is something wrong in the CH circuit or the boiler, either something creating oxygen, hydrogen or the heat exchanger is faulty as it only happens at a certain temp.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You could try caping the vent temporarily while you watch the system and then once finished the test you remove the cap leave the feed open

 

[Dale_R]

You could try caping the vent temporarily while you watch the system and then once finished the test you remove the cap leave the feed open

Yeah, that might be worth trying.

 

[John.g]

I could go down that path, but it surely as I have a jug on the vent pipe with water in it there is no way air can be sucked in through there?

Im concerned there is something wrong in the CH circuit or the boiler, either something creating oxygen, hydrogen or the heat exchanger is faulty as it only happens at a certain temp.

Does the boiler do a pump overrun when cylinder or room stats satisfied/, if so you might note if noise still persists for the pump overrun period, select CH only, turn roomstat up, ensure boiler flow temp set to 70C, wait for a few minutes once the noise commences and turn down the roomstat to shut down the burner/boiler.

Other suggestion is to drain the whole system down again and refill with no inhibitor and see what happens.

 

[Dale_R]

Does the boiler do a pump overrun when cylinder or room stats satisfied/, if so you might note if noise still persists for the pump overrun period, select CH only, turn roomstat up, ensure boiler flow temp set to 70C, wait for a few minutes once the noise commences and turn down the roomstat to shut down the burner/boiler.

Other suggestion is to drain the whole system down again and refill with no inhibitor and see what happens.

Hi John.g

This boiler does not have a pump over-run, the pump is controlled by the microswitch in the Mid position valve.

I have done similar to that test by running the system from cold, letting the boiler get up to temp, waiting for the noise than switching only the boiler off which leaves the pump running. It will get quieter as the water cools down and then reaches a point where it is silent.

I'm planning on dropping the system again today, I noticed a gate valve weeping from the stem on the CH feed, I nipped up the packing nut but the behaviour of the valve is quite strange when I turn it, if I turn it anti-clockwise there it will do a full turn, meet resistance, then do the remainder of turns while the stem pops back in! I don't want to run the risk of the internals falling in to the heating system so going to replace that.

Also I think I will add a lever ball or gate vale to HW flow while it's drained down, as that will enable me to be able to replace the Mid position valve or the automatic bottle vent without draining the system down, which will be quite useful for maintenance.

I was pondering something, the first time I ever drained the system down I did not tie up the float valve as I was just desperate to change the mod position valve and I foolishly thought it would be clean in there as the house is only 20 years old and the F&E tank has a cover, so that would have allowed the F&E tank to completely drain in to the system with that rusty/orange water/mud.

And the last time I drained it down I was bailing out the tank and wiping the mud out but I accidentally knocked the float valve which allowed the tank to start filling up again and this stirred up water started going down the cold feed. I did however leave the header tank feed running for quite a bit to hopefully flush that out of the system.

I took some water out of a rad and it does have an orange/brown tinge to it, I think it would be a good idea to give it a good clean again.

Would X400 do the trick and leave it in for a few weeks, or is there something else I should be using for orange/brown water?