S-Plan Central Heating Installation Question

[ShaunCorbs]

Doesn’t need a eicr for heating wiring aslong as there’s a fcu already installed if there’s not at best a minor works cert is filled in

Have you noticed the part g fault with the system?

Also atm it still complies with part l eg independent control of each system timer for the hot water and wireless prog room stat for the heating

 

[RayPooley]

Doesn’t need a eicr for heating wiring aslong as there’s a fcu already installed if there’s not at best a minor works cert is filled in

Have you noticed the part g fault with the system?

Also atm it still complies with part l eg independent control of each system timer for the hot water and wireless prog room stat for the heating

I understand that under Building Regs Part P a rewiring of a CH system, which this involves, is considered a new wiring for the purposes of the regulations and will need to be covered by an Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC). You can do the job yourself but in order to comply with the regulation you will need to call in an electrician to inspect the installation and issue an EIC which you should keep with your most recent EICR. One could, of course, ignore the regulations entirely but that's not an alternative in my opinion.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No your statement is wrong

 

[Murdoch]

Going back to comment #3, if you had bothered to read it, you will see that I wrote :

"This will need an EIC when completed so it will be installed by a registered electrician."

Because this isn't actually a plumbing issue it's an electrical issue. An electrical issue that just happens to involve
an electrical system installed alongside a plumbing system.

Are you a plumber or an electrician? I'm a mechanical and electrical engineer.

So let's see what we have here .

It's clear from what I have written here so far, to anyone reasonably informed that is, that I am competent enough
to conduct a technical survey of both the plumbing installation and the electrical control installation of this site,
accurately determine the type of CH installation (S-Plan), the electrical control requirements and the fact that the latter is not
up to the necessary standards required for the control of an S-Plan installation. In addition to that I have put forward a solution to remedy the current electrical control system shortfalls and bring it in line with Building Regulation Part L for the minimum standards for the control of heating systems specifically with regards to the hot water circuit.

If you wish to offer alternatives to what I have presented her go ahead.

But don't call me incompetent.

BTW, I could do this job myself and get a registered electrician to issue the EIC after the job completed.
That's an option.

everybody who hides their profile has something to hide

you still very clearly don’t understand central heating wiring and also an EIC isn’t required

and if you look at my profile / badge it’s clear what I am too

 

[RayPooley]

No your statement is wrong

I did look it up a couple of days ago. I will see if I can find the item on the internet. I never thought to bookmark it. It comes under notifiable changes relating to water heaters and boilers.

 

[Gasmk1]

so long as rewire is from fused spur then no not req

 

[SimonG]

To op and wrt response to Murdoch.

You talk of issues with your system.

You talk of customer.

You talk of diving into the wiring centre.

You talk and make incorrect statements.

For the safety of yourself and others then please use a competent person to complete the works.

 

[Murdoch]

Also , about the existing wiring, every cable on a 230v system should have an earth (cpc) and I see that some of the cores are over sleeved as live - this isn't good either.

Just because the cable is running to a class 2 piece of equipment, doesn't mean you can omit the earth (cpc) as it must be connected at the supply end

 

[RayPooley]

On the subject of EIC requirement for this job.

In 2012 an impact assessment was conducted into the effect of reducing the number of circumstances where electrical works on domestic dwellings were deemed notifiable.

I presume the reason for this assessment was to reduce backlog and future work load on local authority building control departments of applications because the numbers were huge and burdensome.

Included in that assessment was the recommendation that 100% of works involving heating control systems be excluded.

In the subsequent approved 2013 revision of the Part P regulations there is no specific reference to heating control systems.

What you will find is a section "Changes to Part P 2013".

Notifiable works includes "The installation of a new circuit".

To give an example, if you tear out the entire electrical installation of a dwelling with view to installing a new installation that would be deemed a rewiring of the dwelling and would therefore be notifiable and you would expect an installer to produce a EICR on completion.

In the case that I present here the installer will be completely removing an old electrical circuit, including equipment, and installing new equipment and a new electrical circuit that is completely different in it's layout to the old circuit.

A new circuit. A rewiring but on a smaller scale.

Since Part P specifically states that "The installation of a new circuit" is notifiable I would expect that to imply an EIC when the job is completed. Otherwise what's the point? The purpose of these rules is accountability.

I do realize, of course, that a lot hangs on the interpretation of the word "new" in this part of the regulations. But I don't think any reasonable person would consider this a reference to function rather than form. If that were the case you could apply the same argument to the rewiring of a dwelling and subsequently conclude that notification was unnecessary. And you would be wrong in that conclusion.

So, an EIC will be required from the installer when the job is competed.

 

[SimonG]

God loves a tryer, but still wrong and to draw a comparison between rewiring a house and heating controls is laughable.

 

[RayPooley]

God loves a tryer, but still wrong and to draw a comparison between rewiring a house and heating controls is laughable.

Laugh away.

But you seem to be overlooking an important point here.

This installation was originally installed by someone with all the accoutrements of what YOU would deem to be a "competent" service provider. I'm not sure what those accoutrements entail. A van with a trade name on the side? Trade organization membership and emblems on the doors? Companies House registration? Is that your yard stick?

Ok. A bit naieve in my experience

What I know about this installation is that this was the case when this system was initially installed.
A subcontractor to the main building contractor. A part of larger project.

And yet here we are. An "incompetent" like me sorting the problems out. Right?

But at the end of the day an EIC will be a listed requirement on the job spec.

Any tradesman who doesn't wish to sanction their own work need not apply. Nor will their application be considered
without such an agreement.

So I guess that would rule you out.

 

[Murdoch]

So come on Ray, come clean about your involvement in this because you can't be claiming to be a CPS registered spark can you?

 

[RayPooley]

So come on Ray, come clean about your involvement in this because you can't be claiming to be a CPS registered spark can you?

The owner is an old friend of mine. Known her for 43 years.

She's spent £130K in two years on home refurbishments. Attached is a an extract of an email I received from her.

It's a shame that people end up feeling this way when they go out of their way to procure credentialled service providers so that they don't end up in these circumstances. But this is where she finds herself with painful regularity.

So excuse me if I roll my eyes when people start preaching about competency registers. You can't teach competency in a classroom.

So she turns to her old, reliable friend Ray, the Engineer, for advice when things go wrong as they so often do.

Case in point. The old friend Ray always come up with a solution.

Now as far as I'm aware you don't need to be on the competency register to intervene and offer advice to anyone.

Or to buy a copy of the BS7671 IET Wiring Regulations and On-site Guide, read it and adhere to its recommendations.

But if the job I have described is not notifiable work, as you claim, then there is really no reason I can't do it myself.

It's 46 connections between 7 devices. You really think a mechanical and electrical engineer can't handle that?

The fact is that I want the work to be certificated whether Building Regs Part P requires it or not. So that she can have
some form of certification of works. to staple to her EICR.

 

[Murdoch]

^^ you brought up the Part P business and your understanding of the use of EICR's and EIC's is suspect too.

Your starting point is really to look at the EIC that the contractor gave to your friend ........

 

[RayPooley]

^^ you brought up the Part P business and your understanding of the use of EICR's and EIC's is suspect too.

Your starting point is really to look at the EIC that the contractor gave to your friend ........

That's ok. You can have the last word.

 

[Murdoch]

That's ok. You can have the last word.

Thanks.

So this comes under the minor works scope - so as long as you have calibrated test equipment and can issue a MWC then crack on

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink

 

[RayPooley]

Thanks.

So this comes under the minor works scope - so as long as you have calibrated test equipment and can issue a MWC then crack on

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink

An aside.

See this attached? Tell me what you think of it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Looks fine and nicely clipped

 

[RayPooley]

Looks fine and nicely clipped

Really? Do you know what it is?

 

[Murdoch]

those are a 2G socket and a 45A isolator with a built in 13A socket