Should annual boiler service include checking the expansion vessel?

[jogu]

Hi all,

I've got an Ideal Response boiler, about 10 years old. I tried a search on the forums (and google) but haven't found an answer to my question.

It's been in contract with British Gas Home Care for much of that time, and over that time I've twice had them out due to faults that turned out to be due to the internal expansion vessel pressure being low. I presume this isn't indicative of a fault, and it's just that expansion tanks do lose pressure over time.

Can anyone tell me if BG should be checking the expansion vessel and the pressure of it when they do the annual service? If they should I'd like to get the £50 excess back from them 😉

Thanks

Joseph

 

[Barry98]

What's your contract say ?

 

[jogu]

Good question.

It says "annual service: means a visit we undertake in each Period of Agreement to check the elements included in your Agreement are safe and in good working order."

I've checked fully through it, and it doesn't seem to go into any more detail anywhere.

 

[Howsie]

If its the internal expansion vessel then I would say its covered.

 

[Plumb Ugly]

I would say so! If its in the manufacturers service instructions then an annual service should include the checking and if needed re charging of the vessel. Not always done I know as what should be a pretty straight forward task can be made much more time consuming by factors such as inoperable isolation valves, no drain tap fitted to the boiler and simply inaccessible vessels!

 

[jogu]

I would say so! If its in the manufacturers service instructions then an annual service should include the checking and if needed re charging of the vessel. Not always done I know as what should be a pretty straight forward task can be made much more time consuming by factors such as inoperable isolation valves, no drain tap fitted to the boiler and simply inaccessible vessels!

Thanks for your answer, Plumb Ugly.

As far as I can see, it's not in the manufacturer's service info:

http manuals.arated.com/index.php?d=Misc/Ideal%20Boilers&f=Ideal%20Response%2080%20100%20120.pdf

(sorry, forum software won't let me post the full url as I'm a new user, add the :// back in...)

It does seem odd to me that it's not included.

I think British Gas should be doing it under the "in good working order" part of their annual service commitment, I think I need to have words with them...

 

[mountainman]

I don't usually interfere with them unless it's a private service but if I do I change the schrader valve as well.

For a BG £18 service you'd be lucky to get much done.

 

[AlexGas]

You should know your BG small print.
Yes, it would take no time to check the EV pressure during a full strip. If there are no issues with a boiler and there’s no need to do a full strip – I’d say you leave it along. As Ideal manufacturer’s instructions would say - If the ratio is a pass - no further action need be taken. If not, proceed to step 5 – full strip. If you’d like to check the vessel pressure only – why stop there!? Let’s carry on testing every single component inside a boiler. If it’s not broke don't fix it. And a dodgy EV will give you some issues.

 

[lame plumber]

fm BGs advertising, doesnt include expn vsl check!
[h=4]What will the engineer do during the service?[/h]

• Gas pressure check to ensure the boiler is operating at the correct gas pressure.
• A flue test to ensure there are no unsafe emissions from your boiler.
• Inspect your boiler and controls to make sure they are operating safely.
• Leave a HomeCare® checklist with you with information about boiler safety.
• Visually inspect the boiler to check for corrosion and leaks.

 

[herp_lee]

I dont check an expansion vessel during a service unless i had reason to. I dont no many that do to be honest. Some customers try to milk a service if they can and seem to think everything to do with the heating system is included.

 

[Howsie]

If the customer is telling me that they have to keep topping up then there's clearly a fault somewhere. Does your BG contract cover this?

 

[lame plumber]

input pressure, fga and vacuum check on a worcester, then what to make it last a bit longer, cup of tea, rattle your tools and check expn vessel if a doc available and off we go!! :tounge_smile:

 

[dancinplumba]

and clean condensate trap if its a steamer 🙂

 

[Barry98]

If the vessel would need recharging surely that's classed as a repair ?

 

[herp_lee]

Bod i think u are surely right.

 

[dancinplumba]

its in vaillant service but not every year

 

[lame plumber]

did the customer mention the problem during the service?

 

[jogu]

If the vessel would need recharging surely that's classed as a repair ?

Thanks - I guess that's really at the heart of my question. Is recharging the expansion tank a repair, or is it routine maintenance that you expect needs doing every couple of years, like cleaning the fins etc? The BG documentation certainly isn't explicit on that point. I pay BG on a contract, they come and check it every year, and I then get a bit annoyed when the boiler stops working because they didn't check the expansion tank pressure (plus they then charge me £50 to come & top it up).

I'm viewing the expansion tank like the tyres on my bike - they'll gradually deflate over time, so you need to give check them / top up once a while - and that seems to be my experience, the boiler has given up due to expansion tank pressure being too low at least twice in 10 years. I'm not sure if that's the right view - should the expansion tank need recharging every couple of years?

 

[jogu]

did the customer mention the problem during the service?

No, I didn't know there was a problem till the boiler stopped working.

 

[lame plumber]

so all in all it was a repair callout, bg dont include it in their service/inspection! Another reason for using a independant plumber to acually service your boiler and put the rest of your money in a savings account for a rainy day.

 

[herp_lee]

Its a repair mate

 

[jogu]

its in vaillant service but not every year

Hi Dancinplumba, that's very interesting, thanks for that. Just looked it up, it seems they suggest it should be checked every 3 years.

Is there any good reason BG shouldn't be checking my Ideal every 3 years?

 

[SimonG]

I always check on a service and top if required. But then it's easier on the oil ones as you normally have to move them and the weights a dead giveaway.

 

[dancinplumba]

just says 'regular intervals'

 

[lame plumber]

Hi Dancinplumba, that's very interesting, thanks for that. Just looked it up, it seems they suggest it should be checked every 3 years.

Is there any good reason BG shouldn't be checking my Ideal every 3 years?

if you look at my earlier post, it tells you what BG do during a service, nothing mentioned about expn vssl checks in their literature!

 

[jogu]

if you look at my earlier post, it tells you what BG do during a service, nothing mentioned about expn vssl checks in their literature!

Your literature seems different to mine, not sure why - to quote from the T&C leaflet they sent me:

"annual service: means a visit we undertake in each Period of Agreement to check the elements included in your Agreement are safe and in good working order."

To me, my boiler isn't in good working order if it's not got a good pressure in the expansion tank. It seems opinions vary on this though 🙂 and I don't know how to resolve the differences between the advert you quoted and the T&Cs I have from them.

 

[lame plumber]

get a decent company to service your boiler, and by service I mean service and not check!

 

[dancinplumba]

unfortunately your boiler MIs dont say check expansion vessel at service time, but you could ask to have it done 🙂

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

i would not check or top up a ev on a service unless customer described low water symptoms or a dripping prv what i would do is run it up see how far that needle goes and if its hitting 2.5 bar flag up theres a problem and price in a repair so no in a standard gas safety check or service its not covered if you have a service contract with repairs thrown in its still not part of a service but would be a breakdown so parts and labour are covered

 

[Millsy 82]

i would not check or top up a ev on a service unless customer described low water symptoms or a dripping prv what i would do is run it up see how far that needle goes and if its hitting 2.5 bar flag up theres a problem and price in a repair so no in a standard gas safety check or service its not covered if you have a service contract with repairs thrown in its still not part of a service but would be a breakdown so parts and labour are covered

Exactly what I do its a fairly easy problem to spot.

 

[DaveTidy]

I used to work at BG and they have never included checking the expansion vessel charge at any point, the boiler is meant to be drained to carry this out as there should be equal pressures on both sides of the diaphragms and they don't drain the boiler unless there is a reason.

In the service they should take a note of the system pressure and what it expands to under temperature as this would indicate a problem if it expands too much because of a lack of pressure in the EV so you would expect that to happen.

If you haven't mentioned any problems and the pressure didn't go above an acceptable range then I wouldn't think any on would be checking back pressure in the EV on a service unless the manufacturers specify it and it's not in the BG service epc as I've just looked.

 

[jogu]

I used to work at BG and they have never included checking the expansion vessel charge at any point, the boiler is meant to be drained to carry this out as there should be equal pressures on both sides of the diaphragms and they don't drain the boiler unless there is a reason.

In the service they should take a note of the system pressure and what it expands to under temperature as this would indicate a problem if it expands too much because of a lack of pressure in the EV so you would expect that to happen.

If you haven't mentioned any problems and the pressure didn't go above an acceptable range then I wouldn't think any on would be checking back pressure in the EV on a service unless the manufacturers specify it and it's not in the BG service epc as I've just looked.

Hi Dave, many thanks, that all makes sense and seems like a good explanation, didn't know the boiler had to be drained down to check it.

I'm not convinced the engineers have been checking the system pressure under temperature, I'll remember to ask them about that next time. I guess it's also something I can check myself - at what point is the pressure too high? I guess if it's 1 bar cold, anything over 2ish when upto temperature would be bad?

 

[SimonG]

Boiler doesn't need draining as such, just de-pressurised.

 

[DaveTidy]

SimonG is correct. As long as either side of the EV diaphragm are equal pressure then it should give a true reading but you will find quite a few manufacturers used to ask for th boiler (nomally a combi) to be drained, as long as the pressures are equal.