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petsco

If I could have some advice from the knowledgeable people here I’d be extremely grateful.

We have a converted chalet bungalow – c.1955. The heating up in the loft isfine, the heating in the new kitchen is fine. The heating in the old part ofthe house, especially the back rooms, isn’t the best. It takes a while for the heat to actually get around to the rads, and even then they never get that hot (the TRVs remain on 5, but remain tepid at best).

We’ve had a few heating engineers around, and none of them have been able todiagnose it (one slight caveat is the solid oak flooring, which I’d prefer not to take up!). There’s no sludge in the radiators or pipes – they’ve been cleaned, and there’s inhibitor in there.

Personally I think the old house is on a single circuit, so all the heat is dissipated before it gets to the latter rads. So the heat seems to go into the circuit via the downstairs bathroom, then the lounge, then the hall, then bedroom 3, then bedroom 4, then the study, and back to the boiler. Bedroom 4 and the study are the coldest. But if I turn the heating off in the lounge(when the stove is going say) they get hotter. Turn the hall and bathroom off,and they get hotter still.

Due to the time it takes for those rads to get up to temp, we seem to run the boiler longer than I think we should. The rest of the house gets too warm, and those two rooms are just starting to get to temperature. Coupled with the fact bedroom 4 and the study don’t get the sun, they’re often cold and damp compared with the rest of the house. Not good for sitting in the study, or in fact sleeping in the bedroom.

We now have the chance to set up a separate circuit for those two rads – the boiler/HWC has been moved into the bedroom above the two rooms. So we could take a spur, run some boxed in pipes down the wall, and feed those two radiators. This would obviously heat these two rooms up more; stopping the damp etc. Allow the heat to dissipate around that end of the house. Hopefully this would also enable the radiator in bedroom 3 – which is a lot lot better than the those two, but not 100% - to get warmer, as less heat would be needed further on around the original circuit.

What do people think? Would I be on right track about the single circuit, and taking two radiators off it would heat the others up more? It would obviously heat those two rooms up that need it the most, which would be good.


As a caveat – due to the flooring – I’m not entirely sure it’s single pipe, as the inlet goes in at the bottom rather than the top. But due to the speed of heating up, I’m pretty convinced. Also – the TRVs fitted will probably be normal ones, rather than full bore ones. Will changing them over make such a difference,or should we just bite the bullet and run in a couple of double pipes for thetwo dodgy rooms?

Or is there something else I should be looking at? Something else that could be the issue?



Many thanks
 
What was it like before the TRVs were installed ?
You could try removing the heads but if standard ones have been installed with 6-8mm bore on a gravity &/or one pipe system that will be the problem.

What size are the flow & return to boiler? 28mm min gravity & likely one pipe system or do you have a circulator if so what speed is it set on ?
 
Cheers Chris

The pipes coming off the boiler to the radiator network is 28mm, but the pipes going into the individual rads themselves are 15mm. We have many networks on the rads - the original set up is one circuit, the upstairs another, the new kitchen the third. The upstairs and kitchen is definitely two pipe - I can see (or rather saw) them going in.

We also have a pump for the rads - i'm unsure as to the speed, but it's a normal Grundfos one, and when lit the triple sign is illuminated, so I'm guessing it's at its maximum

The TRVs were here when we moved in 3 years ago, and the elderly couple that lived here didn't really use the rooms involved - so they probably didn't notice as much. They could also have run the boiler longer - and there was no central thermostat, just the TRVs. He was a bit of a DIYer, so it's not inconcievable he just installed TRVs without knowing the difference - as, to be honest, neither did I until investigating this!

Would the TRVs solve it then do you think? Or at least trying to see if they are narrow bore, then putting some on. Why would 3 rads be fine, and not the latter 3 if the TRVs are to blame? Or could it be he's just put a wrong one on one radiator, and that's where the issue is. Although all the TRVs do look identical; they are Danfoss, but I can't tell the bore without taking them off I guess?

many thanks again
 
If they are danfoss, they could be dual flow, and fitted incorrectly. Remove the heads and there should be a arrow on the grey plastic, these should be turned to the correct postion, either flow or return. Put the heating on and see which pipe heats up first.
 
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I’m afraid you lost 99.99999999% of your potential helpful audience when you used the word “ caveat.”
Just too highbrow.
 
Try turning the pump speed down. On a single pipe system if the pump is set too fast the water just rushes past the radiators and doesn't rise into the radiator.
 
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Oh really? Turn the pump down - I can see why that would work. I'm guessing it won't make too much difference to the rads on the dual pipe circuit - albeit (is that word allowed??) it might make them slightly slower to warm up.

Funnily enough I checked last night, and it appears the heating engineer has changed the TRVs in bedroom3, bedroom4 and the study for newer ones. As these are the rads that have the issue it could be a reason...
 
Single pipe systems are an acute rectal pain! If you can put in two pipe to some rads then do so and the ones which remain should get a bit hotter. Generally, the first rad will be hottest as it's getting full temp going in. The next rad is cooler as it's now getting a mix of full temp and cooler return temp water from the first rad and so on.
If you've got TRVs they need to be the low resistance type suitable for single pipe as you're relying on water gravitating up into the rad, even so this isn't perfect. If the rads are the modern back entry type such as Stelrad or Myson that won't help either as they're high resistance.
You could try balancing the system by screwing down return valves on the circuits if you've got them.
 
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no - I realise all that. Which is why I'm trying to work out the best method. As I say, we can replace the single pipe system for the two 'problem' rads. Which would enable there to be only 5 on the single pipe.

However if it's just a case of replacing a couple of TRVs that have misfitted then obviously that's a lot cheaper. And easier.
 
remove the trv's and have the system balanced, most trv's are not very suitable for one pipe systems, especially ones like draytons as they have a small bore.
 
Call me hopelessly naïve but are you allowed to take TRVs off (or rather get a HE to do it). And would thgat be all on thge single pipe circuit or just the problem ones.
 
The problem you have is that the system is a mishmash of different things, requiring different set ups the only way you will know if it will perform reasonably is to carry out some miner alterations & play around to see, that is what any of us would have to do.

Some things to start you off -
You turned off the rads that were getting hot on the one pipe system & ones that were not so good greatly improved, this confirms that the pipe work to these not so good ones is sound & has the potential to work, normally it would just be a case of balancing the system.

If it is a one pipe then fitting standard type TRV's will result in too greater restriction on the flow inlet to each rad & increase the water flow straight back to the boiler, as others have suggested.
For the cost of replacing all the TRVs on the suspected one pipe section for manual wheel & lock shield type I would go for that. It means draining the system but given that you get the right type of valve connections it should be a straight swop. (check the internal water way)

You describe your pump as "Grundfos one, and when lit the triple sign is illuminated" this suggests that it is an ALPHA2 if this is the case then the III would been it has been set to run on the highest fixed speed when it may be better on PP1 or PP2. (see link)
https://uk.grundfos.com/content/gb/...d/file/file.res/ALPHA2 Sales Leaflet 0413.pdf

What you haven't told us is what your boiler, newer ones will not perform to well with a one pipe.

It is the balancing of the whole system, both the new & old, that will determine if it will ever work acceptable & thus whether it will be worth repiping.
Have fun.
 
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